Evangelical Missionaries in Catholic Countries

[ILO]

Why don’t Catholics do this kind of thing…By that I mean send regular people from regular parishes.

The Catholic students from our parish go down to Mexico to a mission there every year during Spring Break. The Catholic Church does do this. And it is important. But it is also important to bring the Sacraments to them. And this requires a priest.

In the Love of Christ,
ILO

 

[CD4]

Wonderful! Does a priest ever go with the kids? You are so right…The people need the sacraments! As do we all.

 

[MariaG]

I have to agree with JohnCarrol. It is more than just educating Catholics, it is giving them heart felt knowledge of Christ. Help Catholics fall in love with Christ and see how wonderfully full that relationship is through the Sacraments, Prayer, and the Saints.

I frequently hear protestants say that the Bible contains all that is sufficient for salvation (arguing against Tradition). Yes it is true but in the Catholic Church I have a richness and fullness that was not available to me otherwise. That is the education that needs to happen.

 

[Serafin]

Hi:

As a Hispanic and former Roman Catholic I would like to point out that for many Hispanics being “catholic” is a cultural phenomenon which has little; to do with mass attendance, orthodox belief or any of the other things which you would associate with Christianity, catholic or otherwise. In addition the “popular catholicism” found in many parts of Mexico and other Latin American countries is to a significant degree syncretistic, incorporating elements of spiritualism and pre Christian indigenous or the religion of African slaves.
To speak of the gospel to those that have no apreciable Christian faith is not proselitism but evangelism. The Roman Catholic Church has done a great job of inculturation in Latin America but little to no evangelization or catechesis and counts among their “baptized” people that for all practical purposes are pagan and need to be evangelized. More power to the evangelicals who despite being in the “wrong church” according to many of you
have taken their task of evangelizing a lot more seriously!
You should be happy that non-Christians are converted to Christ, not whine about the “proselitism” of people whose “catholicism” ended the day they were baptized.

Blessings

Serafin

 

[Ric]

Serafin:

Hi:

As a Hispanic and former Roman Catholic I would like to point out that for many Hispanics being “catholic” is a cultural phenomenon which has little; to do with mass attendance, orthodox belief or any of the other things which you would associate with Christianity, catholic or otherwise. In addition the “popular catholicism” found in many parts of Mexico and other Latin American countries is to a significant degree syncretistic, incorporating elements of spiritualism and pre Christian indigenous or the religion of African slaves.
To speak of the gospel to those that have no apreciable Christian faith is not proselitism but evangelism. The Roman Catholic Church has done a great job of inculturation in Latin America but little to no evangelization or catechesis and counts among their “baptized” people that for all practical purposes are pagan and need to be evangelized. More power to the evangelicals who despite being in the “wrong church” according to many of you
have taken their task of evangelizing a lot more seriously!
You should be happy that non-Christians are converted to Christ, not whine about the “proselitism” of people whose “catholicism” ended the day they were baptized.

Blessings

Serafin

and

 

[Lilac]

Hi Everyone,

Great discussion! I have a young friend whose family is from Equador with a strong Catholic background – of course.

She left the Church 10 years ago or so joining a Word of Faith Church. Her life’s dream has always been missions to the third world. Alas, her dreams are fullfilled and she is a missionary in Bolivia. I cannot support her endeavor financially because she is, in my view, spreading heresy, but I love this kid to pieces. She could do SO MUCH GOOD as a Catholic. Her extended family (in Equador) do not know she left the Church and would disown her if they knew.

But bottom line is this, “All is fair in love and war.” Why not we go? The laity of the Church is not held back from missions work. I think it’s time for the faithful in our Church to rise to the battle and take back what’s our’s!!

God Bless,

Lilac

 

[SeanG]

Lilac:

But bottom line is this, “All is fair in love and war.” Why not we go? The laity of the Church is not held back from missions work. I think it’s time for the faithful in our Church to rise to the battle and take back what’s our’s!!

Actually, not all is fair in love and war. Otherwise, good ends would always justify bad means.

But your overall conclusion, that Catholics should go down there as well, is a good one.

However, unless there is a fruitful discussion between Catholics and Evangelicals on topics such as the meaning of baptism and what defines one as a Christian, Evangelicals will continue to send missionaries into countries that are predominately Catholic.

If that is the case, then the missionary work, catechetical work, relief work, etc. will be vitiated to the degree to which there continues to be division among us.

In light of this think about John 17:20-21: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one…”

If Christians are divided, our witnessing to the Gospel will be impeded.

Now some may argue (with good evidence to back their argument up) that it is futile to attempt to enter into an ecumenical discussion with Evangelicals since many of them equate ecumenism with compromise.

However, I would have people consider Evangelicals and Catholics Together’s document “The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium”, published 10 years ago in First Things.

Mind you, this group is made up of some major lights among both Catholics and Evangelicals (Catholics: Cardinal Dulles, Cardinal George, Archbishop Stafford, George Weigel; Evangelicals: Dr. Richard Land, Chuck Colson, and Dr. Larry Lewis).

 

[bengal_fan]

bob-
i was rather offended by your statement:

BobCatholic:

Why they’re not evangelizing Muslims is not hard to understand - they’d get killed.

Christians are evengelizing muslims and dying because of it. catholics and protestants alike. i have a good friend in turkey and he has been imprisoned twice and seen 3 executions of missionaries by muslim fanatics. these are not government sponsored but it happens more than we realize.

 

[Serafin]

“However, unless there is a fruitful discussion between Catholics and Evangelicals on topics such as the meaning of baptism and what defines one as a Christian, Evangelicals will continue to send missionaries into countries that are predominately Catholic”

Response: As well they should, evangelism is not something Christians have the luxury of postponing until there is “fruitful discussion” or agreement. Roman Catholics and Orthodox agree on many things, Anglo Catholic Anglicans are at times more “catholic than the Pope” …but the scism persists after a millenium ! And , well … we are just never going to agree with you that the Pope is infallible…sorry dude! We all agree that people are sinners and they need to be saved…There is no sense in waiting to tell them about Jesus until a bunch of aged bishops , theologians and the like agree on the meaning of Baptism or any such thing! Before anyone agreed on the status of gentiles in the church…Phillip and others evangelized them…it will surely al pan out in the end!
I do agree that no one is stopping catholics from evangelizing as the Pope has urged them to " new evangelization"…!

Blessings

 

[SeanG]

Serafin:

Response:And , well … we are just never going to agree with you that the Pope is infallible…sorry dude!

It is hard even beginning a discussion when one party has a closed mind from the very start.

Serafin:

We all agree that people are sinners and they need to be saved…There is no sense in waiting to tell them about Jesus until a bunch of aged bishops , theologians and the like agree on the meaning of Baptism or any such thing!

I never said that no evangelization should happen before fruitful discussion happens on these topics. What I said in my post was that the missionary efforts of all Christians–Evangelicals and Catholics alike–will be vitiated to the degree to which our division continues.

Serafin:

I do agree that no one is stopping catholics from evangelizing as the Pope has urged them to " new evangelization"…!

Umm…I never said that Catholics weren’t being stopped in their evangelization. However, what lay Catholic mission groups from the United States do when they travel to Central and South America is not ‘mission work’ per se. It would be more accurately described (at least from a Catholic perspective) as relief work, or catechetical work.

In an earlier post, you wrote:

Serafin:

To speak of the gospel to those that have no apreciable Christian faith is not proselitism but evangelism. The Roman Catholic Church has done a great job of inculturation in Latin America but little to no evangelization or catechesis and counts among their “baptized” people that for all practical purposes are pagan and need to be evangelized.

Those comments speak directly to the topics that I mentioned above: the meaning of baptism and what defines one as a Christian.

From the perspective of the Catholic Church, if one has been validly baptized, that person is a Christian. Even if that happens when one is an adult, he or she will have to continue to grow in the faith as time goes along. That, of course, is especially true when one is baptized before the age of reason (something which, by the way, has some scriptural basis, is not contradicted by scripture, and was shown to be common in the Church before the time of Constantine).

People who have been baptized but have not grown in the knowledge and in the living of the faith need the help of those who have. Catholics need to help their fellow Catholics do this. Many Catholics are doing this. Many more need to. But Catholics who have not grown in the knowledge and living of the faith are not helped, at least in an ultimate sense, by having Evangelical missionaries confusing them about matters that are of fundamental importance.

 

[Serafin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serafin
*Response:*And , well … we are just never going to agree with you that the Pope is infallible…sorry dude!

It is hard even beginning a discussion when one party has a closed mind from the very start.

This topic has been discussed “ad nauseaum” for decades and well thought as they are the RCC presentations of this dogma have failed to convince millions of Christians…even those of Apostolic churches like the Orthodox…no sense is us rehashing the same old thing here!

I never said that no evangelization should happen before fruitful discussion happens on these topics. What I said in my post was that the missionary efforts of all Christians--Evangelicals and Catholics alike--will be vitiated to the degree to which our division continues.

I agree with this…Jesus did pray; that they might all be one so “that the world would believe”. Many Christians outside the RCC are concious of this… but “vitiated” or not, evangelization is desperately needed in Latin America and other countries. Evangelicals have risen to this task admirably in my opinion!

 Those comments speak directly to the topics that I mentioned above: the meaning of baptism and what defines one as a Christian...From the perspective of the Catholic Church, if one has been validly baptized, that person is a Christian

This is precisely the problem the RCC has had in Latin America… a problem of perspective! By this definition Fidel Castro is a Christian! Being a Christian is much more than having been wet at a church ceremony wether validly or not. Even validly baptized people have to own up to the faith and promises others made for them … that is part of what confirmation entails …at least for Anglicans!
If an adult lives a life void of Christian values, no appreciable Christian faith and having a spirituality which is pagan or nonexisting, that person is no Catholic or Christian at all even if the pope himself baptized him or her!

 That, of course, is especially true when one is baptized before the age of reason (something which, by the way, has some scriptural basis, is not contradicted by scripture, and was shown to be common in the Church before the time of Constantine

Child baptism is not an issue here… there would be no need to evangelize people who took their baptismal covenant seriously when they reach the age of reason!

 But Catholics who have not grown in the knowledge and living of the faith are not helped, at least in an ultimate sense, by having Evangelical missionaries confusing them about matters that are of fundamental importance.

I disagree…pagans who were merely “wet” at a RC ceremony and have no Christian faith at all are very helped by Evangelical missionaries who tell them about the love of God! It does not help the RCC maintain its cultural supremacy in Latin America but it helps the people well enough. Ultimately they get to be in relationship with God albeit in an “imperfect” relationship with the RCC! There is nothing more fundamental than the love of Jesus and his sacrifice for us on the cross …what is confusing to people is why it wasn’t Catholics who told them! Let me tell you there are very few craddle Anglicans I have known to be bitter toward the RCC, they are just curious…but for many latino RC’s who have left your church there is a looming question which frecuently embitters them…" the priests knew this, why didn’t they tell us".

Blessings

Serafin

 

[SeanG]

Serafin:

This is precisely the problem the RCC has had in Latin America… a problem of perspective! By this definition Fidel Castro is a Christian! Being a Christian is much more than having been wet at a church ceremony wether validly or not.

There is a difference between being a Christian and living as one. The two are interrelated, yet distinct. The Catholic Church has taught that one becomes a Christian being a profession of faith and by baptism. One lives as a Christian by cooperating with the grace that one received in that baptism.

So, yes, Fidel Castro, if he was baptized, is a Christian. But it would seem abundantly clear that he has chosen to reject the grace that he received that supposed baptism (I don’t know if he was baptized or not).

This isn’t just an academic exercise that I’m going through here. The way that Christians approach another person depends greatly upon his or her identity. If he or she is a Christian then that person, strictly speaking, does not need to be evangelized, strictly speaking, even if he or she has never grown in the knowledge or life of the faith.

There may be a major amount of catechesis and encouragement that needed. But evangelization is closely tied with the first acceptance of the Gospel and with baptism. With such a person as I described above, this has already happened.

And this needs to be respected, for, as St. Paul taught, there is only ‘one baptism.’

Serafin:

Ultimately they get to be in relationship with God albeit in an “imperfect” relationship with the RCC! There is nothing more fundamental than the love of Jesus and his sacrifice for us on the cross

Amen. And this is precisely what is celebrated at the Eucharist. And it is in this solemn worship that any of the baptized can enter into a very deep and loving relationship with Christ.

Serafin:

what is confusing to people is why it wasn’t Catholics who told them!..for many latino RC’s who have left your church there is a looming question which frecuently embitters them…" the priests knew this, why didn’t they tell us".

I fully admit that there has been a failure among many in the Church, priests and lay alike, to pass on the faith to the young. But I think that this is true in all Christian communities. It is simply the continuing effects of original sin.

We can, however, overcome those effects with the grace that God offers us.

But what is it, precisely, that you feel that these Latinos are saying that they haven’t heard from their priests?

Is it that we can be saved forever from the fires of hell simply by confessing that Jesus is Lord?

If that is the case, then they would never have heard such a thing from a priest, even if that priest were taking very seriously his duty to teach those under his care. Why? Well, we can leave that to another discussion.

 

[Serafin]

Hi:

There is a difference between being a Christian and living as one. The two are interrelated, yet distinct. The Catholic Church has taught that one becomes a Christian being a profession of faith and by baptism. One lives as a Christian by cooperating with the grace that one received in that baptism.

I am aware of that difference if we are talking about Christians!The problem with your definiton becomes whose profession of faith makes one a Christian, your own that of some other person. In most Hispanic countries people are baptized as children, the profession of faith and baptismal promises are done on their behalf. If they choose to reject or not cooperate with that grace given, no label you or your church gives is going to alter the fact that they are in need of conversion! If they lack the basic knowledge of what God offers them, as many seem to, they need to be brought to faith in Jesus. Make all the academic distinctions you want, as the RCC does in Latin America it does not change the evident!

So, yes, Fidel Castro, if he was baptized, is a Christian. But it would seem abundantly clear that he has chosen to reject the grace that he received that supposed baptism (I don’t know if he was baptized or not

Yes of course … so was Hitler! I wonder how many RC Cubans would agree with you? I wonder if Jesus would agree with that assessment? I certainly do not!

But evangelization is closely tied with the first acceptance of the Gospel and with baptism. With such a person as I described above, this has already happened

.

This of course is your assumption…baptism has occurred but “first acceptance of the Gospel” may not have especially in countries where the rituals of the RCC are seen as part of the culture. This has been the situation in many Hispanic countries.

Amen. And this is precisely what is celebrated at the Eucharist. And it is in this solemn worship that any of the baptized can enter into a very deep and loving relationship with Jesus.

Amen! Yet many seem to experience deep communion with Christ and enter into a loving relationship with him outside the boundaries of RCC “solemn worship”. Many in the countries we are refering to seem to prefer Protestant or Charismatic worship to the solemn fare you refer to. Why else would they leave?

But what is it, precisely, that you feel that these Latinos are saying that they haven’t heard from their priests? Is it that we can be saved forever from the fires of hell simply by confessing that Jesus is Lord?

People can be saved forever by giving their life to Christ and living in response to his love and grace! They should hear more of this from their priests and less nonsense about mother Mary and her latest aparitions.I was raised in a devout RC home, and never did we have access to a Bible or any kind of Catholic Bible study …nonexistent then…this has changed some I know! In the rare Catechism lessons we learned more about fear of mortal sin than about the love of God, and despite “official teaching” it was mother Mary not Jesus we would feel more confortable approaching in prayer with the blessing of our priest who insisted…Mary would deny us nothing, she was our advocate with her son. This was us the devout mass attenders, imagine the rest of our extended family!..baptized yes…spirit worshippers, “Santeros”, supersticious, and definitely not Christian!
Jesus Christ changes the lives of people who enter into a relationship with him…its a pity it took a Baptist to tell me that, or to give us our first copy of the new Testament!

Is it that we can be saved forever from the fires of hell simply by confessing that Jesus is Lord?

Wasn’t it St Paul who came up with the theory that…" if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead…you will be saved…" . Evangelicals did not make that up! It certainly is not all there is to it but it is a start!

Blessings

Serafin

 

[Serafin]

Hi there:

Please forgive me if I have offended or seemed uncharitable in my comments. I am not a Roman Catholic and am a new guest here.

It is not my intention to be argumentative or unkind although my experience and convictions in the faith are different from many of yours. I do not intend to demean or pass judgement on your Church in any way but have felt the need to share the part of my personal journey of faith.

May God bless you

Serafin +

 

[SeanG]

Serafin,

I appreciate your felt need to be concerned about the way in which other participants in the forum are affected by your previous posts.

Of course, I would not want you to be silenced because your own beliefs differ from those of the Cathoic Church. But, on the other hand, if we are to respond to the grace that God gives us to fulfill Jesus’ prayer that ‘they all may be one’, then it is crucial that all Christians speak to one another in a spirit of respect and charity.

Such a conversation can happen, even when the topics are those where there are fundamental differences between Evangelicals and Catholics. The ECT document to which I provided a link in a previous post is a clear example of how this can happen.

 

[SeanG]

Serafin,

In various posts, you have often referred to the ways in which Catholics in Central and South America have integrated their faith with their culture. In most, if not all of these instances, you wrote about this from a negative perspective.

I think that it is important, though, to recognize the crucial part that every nation’s culture in every historical period has played in the way in which the people in them have come to faith in Christ and then lived out that faith.

The relationship between the faith and a particular culture is complex, one that I know that I cannot explain completely.

But lets first consider Jesus. He was born into a specific culture in a specific time and place. He used the unique aspects of that culture to teach his disciples. He used the language of that culture to proclaim the Good News.

Because the Son of God took on human flesh, because of the incarnation, the grace of redemption was offered to all humans and, by extension, all human cultures in all times and places.

Because of this redeeming grace, humans can learn more about the Gospel because of the particularities of a specific culture. At the same time, the grace of Christ can also transform those aspects of cultures that need reform and redemption.

This interaction between the Gospel and cultures takes place slowly and is, in truth, never ending since cultures are never set in stone.

In the next post, I’ll address some of the problems that can emerge in this process that the Church has described as ‘inculturation.’

 

[SeanG]

Because we continue to live with the effects of original sin, the relationship between the Gospel and particular cultures can become skewed.

Some Catholics in some countries might take the aspects of their culture that tend toward determinism and make their faith more supersticious. This has happened in various ways in the cultures of Central and South America.

At the same time, I think that it is imortant to recognize that the historic culture of the United States has had a negative impact upon the way in which many evangelical Christians understand and live out their faith.

A dominant factor in both the founding of the United States and its culture to this very day is the total autonomy of the individual. This has been manifested in various evangelical traditions in America by a sharp focus on the individual’s personal relationship with Christ, to the exclusion of any fundamental importance on the broader church community and, especially in its role in the interpretation of scripture.

In both instances, the full understanding of the Gospel has been impeded by aspects of a particular culture. This is a phenomenon that is not restricted to Catholics alone.

But instead of ending on such a negative note, I chose to return to my conviction that human cultures can help us learn more about the full truth of the Gospel. The Gospel was not first proclaimed in a cultural vacuum. It has not been proclaimed or lived in such a vacuum ever since then to this very day.

Please, then, don’t look so simplistically on the relationship between the Gospel and culture.

 

[Serafin]

Because we continue to live with the effects of original sin, the relationship between the Gospel and particular cultures can become skewed.Some Catholics in some countries might take the aspects of their culture that tend toward determinism and make their faith more supersticious

I have no essential disagreement with you here! Usually I prefer to see the relationship of the Gospel as with individuals who then engage and transform their culture. The book of Acts is full of accounts of the first contact of the gospel with different cultures and…its effects . In one city all the magic and divination books were publicly burned by those who practiced those “superstitions” as part of their culture.

A concern I have is that here you are speaking of the limitations Christians have. Does this apply to someone who, despite baptism as a child has never assented to the faith, believes and lives like a pagan? Are we to consider a Santeria or Voodoo practicioner a Catholic because of RC baptism … and say that Evangelicals efforts to evangelize such people amount to proselytism? That has kind of been the premise of some in this thread!

Some Catholics in some countries might take the aspects of their culture that tend toward determinism and make their faith more supersticious. This has happened in various ways in the cultures of Central and South America. At the same time, I think that it is imortant to recognize that the historic culture of the United States has had a negative impact upon the way in which many evangelical Christians understand and live out their faith…
In both instances, the full understanding of the Gospel has been impeded by aspects of a particular culture. This is a phenomenon that is not restricted to Catholics alone.

Yes…this however is not something we have to look at as normal and acceptable! Even with all the limitations and impediments we have…there have been Christians, both Catholic and Protestant who have given wonderful example of how the Christian life is lived…in many different cultures. As far as Latin America goes…there are many there that your Church has honored as saints and blesseds. Identifying something as a problem should lead us to try to solve it… more prebaptismal instruction, better catechesis, more Bible study opportunities…etc. In Latin America these are still lagging among RC’s. The same can be said of some traditionally Protestant countries in Europe.

Please, then, don’t look so simplistically on the relationship between the Gospel and culture.

Thankyou for your comments and concern. Where the Christian faith is believed and lived…inculturation is a beautiful thing to see. Where Christian rituals devoid of faith are the cultural norm, please send missionaries…Evangelicals welcome!

 

[Malachi4U]

Three of my children were in an AWANA club at a Baptist church. The AWANA club at my old church routinely raises money to support missionaries mostly in Africa and Israel. As a result, these missionaries make routine visits to the US to thank everyone for their support and to raise more funds. My family has had many opportunities to meet Baptist missionaries.

So what have we learned?

All the missionaries we have met ‘KNOW’ that RC’s ARE NOT CHRISTIAN! It is open season on RC’s. They will not associate or even share resources with RC missionaries in any way except to evangelize them. They also say it is easier to “Save” a RC then to get other people. This is why the target Catholics both in the US and overseas.:tsktsk:

These missionaries make so much money that one even buys a NEW plane every year when he comes to the US. He uses the plane to fly himself around to all the churches that support him. At the end of his fundraising trip he sells the plane and goes back to Africa.

My wife, not Catholic ‘yet’ , was so appalled by the statements from the missionaries (and other Baptists) that she stopped “tithing” to her church, stopped donating to the missionaries, stopped going to the AWANA club as an instructor, stopped going to Baptist churches for worship, and is slowly accepting what Catholics teach as true and filled with LOVE.

The missionaries even try to “save” me when they find out I am RC.

These are only Baptist missionaries and all my accounts are from firsthand experience.:yup:

 

[Becky]

Serafin:

Hi:

As a Hispanic and former Roman Catholic I would like to point out that for many Hispanics being “catholic” is a cultural phenomenon which has little; to do with mass attendance, orthodox belief or any of the other things which you would associate with Christianity, catholic or otherwise. In addition the “popular catholicism” found in many parts of Mexico and other Latin American countries is to a significant degree syncretistic, incorporating elements of spiritualism and pre Christian indigenous or the religion of African slaves.
To speak of the gospel to those that have no apreciable Christian faith is not proselitism but evangelism. The Roman Catholic Church has done a great job of inculturation in Latin America but little to no evangelization or catechesis and counts among their “baptized” people that for all practical purposes are pagan and need to be evangelized. More power to the evangelicals who despite being in the “wrong church” according to many of you
have taken their task of evangelizing a lot more seriously!
You should be happy that non-Christians are converted to Christ, not whine about the “proselitism” of people whose “catholicism” ended the day they were baptized.

Blessings

Serafin

AMEN! Wonderful post Serafin.

Might I add what Jesus Christ said about this:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Christ said all nations, and Evangelicals take that statement literally. Many non-Christians are being brought into the fold by these Evangelical missionaries! The angels in Heaven rejoice over one sinner coming to Christ!

---

Becky