Evangelical Missionaries in Catholic Countries

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Ric:
Do you know how many people sitting next to you in the pews are actually not saved?
I know each and every one of them is a baptized Christian. As no mortal can see into the future, their state of Grace when they are called to Judgement is unknown to us all; thus knowledge of their Salvation is to God alone.
 
No I don’t, but I beleive that there are many people sitting next to me that have no saving faith…

Can the same not be said for the one sitting next to you on sunday though:ehh: …?

I am not opposed to people evangelizing I am opposed to the notion that Catholics are not christian if they practice the catholic faith…
 
Ric,

I would appreciate it if you would look at and respond to post #28 in this thread. In it, I responded to various statements that you made and asked some questions in return.

In any case, I don’t mind if other readers look at that post and respond to it as well.
 
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Brendan:
This is the attitude of the ‘Missionaries’

Here is an article about Evangelicals going to ‘spread the Gospel’ in Greece during the Olympics

crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1215419.html

Hmmm, being 98% Greek Orthodox does qualify as being a ‘Christian’ country. :rolleyes:

Any comment on that one Ric?
Hey! Iposted about this in post #19 of this thread and got completely ignored :mad:

[John goes into the corner and sulks]
 
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Ric:
Nope, sorry - that will not fly. You know why? :confused:

Because we even evangelize throughout the United States, the most “Christian” country on the face of the Earth. (Yes, that means we even evangelize in the pews!)
If we’re the most “christian” country on the face of the earth, then the world is screwed 🙂

One more time: Why evangelize a country that is by the vast majority Christian, unless it is to steal sheep from the other Christian flocks to the flock the johnny-come-lately denomination?

C’mon. 98% Christian country verses a 1% Christian country. Which has priority for evangelization? That’s right, the 1% Christian country. But noooooooooooo, that’s not what the bigots do.

They say that the christians there are not Christian since they’re being “evangelized” by other sects. I’m sorry, I can’t hear their words, their actions speak WAY too loud.
 
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Ric:
Do you know how many people sitting next to you in the pews are actually not saved? :confused:
Such a determination requires judging someone’s soul.

I can’t judge that, only God can judge that.
 
First, I wonder how this topic might relate to the relationship between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches? The latter feel that their continued presence in traditionally Orthodox lands are a sign of proselytism. The former see their existence as a sign of the fundamental human freedom to choose the religion of one’s choice.

Second, I’m wondering if Ric and others are interested in answering the questions that I posed in post #28.
 
Catholics in every country need to learn from an early age:
  • The origin and history of the Bible
  • The origin and history of Christianity, which is the history of the Church
  • Simple apologetics
  • The origin, history, and splintering of Protestantism
  • That Jesus didn’t leave us a Bible, he left us a Church
  • That the Bible has been used by Protestants to “prove” every abberant doctrine imaginable from bigamy and polygyny to abortion, to Once Saved Always Saved, to ‘there is no hell,’ to the so-called Rapture, and the list goes on - and on - and on!
  • And that a smooth-talking Evangelical or Fundamentalist bent on telling him he isn’t saved is hazardous to his spiritual health, and he should run the other way at the very sight of one.
The antidote to ignorance is education. We’ve gotta teach, teach, teach, the TRUTH.
 
In response to an early post asking where the spring time is I have this to say. There has actually been a rise in the number of men joining the priesthood Many in the third world countries of Asia and Africa. These places are very dangerous for christians and catholics even more so yet the catholic faith is growing expnentially there. The youth of our age has also begun to take up on the challenge against infidellity to the church and yearning for the truth many have begun to evangilize their parents! How do I know this? i saw it happen with my friends.

And Evangilization does not mean spreading the faith to non-christians it means All the activities by which every member of the Church proclaims and presents the saving message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (source Catholic Dictionary Edited by Father M.J. Stravinskas, Ph.D.)
This would include our fellow protestant brethern in by which we teach the fullness of truth found in the gospels including the magestirium, the sacraments etc. (sacraments save john 6! etc)

And to really spread the faith Live It! Teach by example thats what all great evangelists and missionaries do!

And about protestant Missionaries I’ve heard of one that pays local people to show up at their service. . . pretty sad

Any who Learn the faith and Teach the faith and Live the Faith 👍

Peace and God Bless
 
**Two summers ago I went on such a mission trip with my husband, who is a member of an Evangelical church. I was asked to go because I was a paramedic, and they were going to run a clinic. **

It was quite an experience, let me tell you. I went because I saw it as an opportunity to actually help people who were very much less fortunate than I.

**There was no evangelizing, per se, but there was a Bible School for the kids, work was done on a school, and we ran a medical clinic. **

**As far as I know, that particular mission is visited by many church teams every year. These people use their own money to go, and often give up their vacations. **

The trip was a life changing experience for me. My whole definition of poverty changed…I saw the real thing…Barefoot little ones carrying fresh water to their families in old Clorox bottles. And, all the children we saw in the clinic had parasites…We treated them, of course, but knew the problem would come back, due to the living conditions…

**Why don’t Catholics do this kind of thing…By that I mean send regular people from regular parishes…Not just priests, nuns, and full time missionaries…Sending ordinary people out to do an extraordinary thing is awesome. **

**Looking around, I can see that many Protestant churches do this kind of thing…Although it is primarily the Evangelical ones that send people out on mission trips, I know that other churches do it, too. It’s a regular thing…My husband’s church sends several teams out every year. **
 
CD,

You wrote: “Why don’t Catholics do this kind of thing…By that I mean send regular people from regular parishes…Not just priests, nuns, and full time missionaries…Sending ordinary people out to do an extraordinary thing is awesome.”

Catholics do that kind of thing! There is a group based here in the Twin Cities that sends teams to Russia to help out in the parishes struggling after so many years of oppression. Another Catholic charity I donate to also invites people to go to the countries that they work in. One of our larger churches in my area sends youth teams to different parts of the world…I don’t think it’s that unusual.

Sherlock
 
CD4,

I would second Sherlock’s comments and say that a lot of Catholics do this.

Perhaps they don’t get hyped up about it because there is no undercurrent of getting people saved attached to it. When Catholic go to countries in Central and South America, it is a situation where Catholics are helping Catholics, where Christians are helping those that they already recognize as Christians.

One of the primary reasons that Evangelicals go to these countries is that they look at them as not being Christian.
 
Thanks for the information. I would love the opportunity to journey to a Catholic mission…

The mission I did go on was to Honduras, which is about 98% Catholic. I would love to return, this time as a Catholic in a Cathoic mission…I think it would be wonderful to have the opportunity to help Honduran Catholics come to a deeper and richer understanding of their faith…It is so sad that Central American Catholics are so succeptable to the Evangelical message…They should be hearing and responding to a Catholic message…
 
CD,

One group I would look into is the Christian Foundation for Children and Aging (CFCA). Their website is:

cfcausa.org/

If you click on “how you can help”, you will go to a page that has information regarding various opportunities for giving. You will find “Volunteer Opportunities” on that page—I think it’s the third or fourth item.

God bless,

Sherlock
 
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BobCatholic:
Evangelical missionaries in Catholic countries are bigots. They think Catholics are not Christian.

Why they’re not evangelizing Muslims is not hard to understand - they’d get killed.

They should focus on Muslims, but noooooooooooo, they wanna fleece the sheepfold.
Not exactly fair, Bob.

I know and know of many Evangelicals to Muslim countries. In fact just a few months back a Baptist missionary was martyred in Iraq. And there are many other Protestant missionaries who have laid down there lives for the Gospel. Feel free to criticize Christians evangelizing other Christian countries. But please don’t try to support it by acting as if there are no Protestants in Muslim countires. How many Catholic missionaries are in Muslim countries?

And as for evangelizing other Christian countries. Many Protestants go to Protestant and Orthodox countries too. Are you going to argue that those nominally Christian Countries in Europe don’t need the Gospel? And if you are going to be really honest, there are a few nominally Catholic countries too. Of course I am all for Catholics evangelizing their own. But the reality is that doesn’t always happen.

I have heard the Orthodox complain about Protestant and Catholic missionaries going to Russia. Well sorry Orthodox folks but a country with an abortion rate that makes America look pro-life needs some evangelizing. And if the Orthodox won’t do it I am all for the Catholics doing it. Know what I mean?

Mel
 
I don’t think the claim that evangelicalism is “easier” is borne out in practice. It is probably easier to be an evangelical than to be a really serious Catholic. But it is easier in Catholic churches (and much much easier in mainline Protestant churches) to get by on the bare minimum. And most converts to evangelicalism are the sort of Catholics who go to Mass only when required, if that. To be a member in good standing of an evangelical church, you generally have to attend several times a week, study the Scriptures intensely, and show tangible signs of transformation in your life. Admittedly, evangelicals aren’t monolithic and perhaps I’m thinking too much of the very strict corner of evangelicalism in which I was raised. But while many of the new “seeker-sensitive” churches have lowered the bar drastically, I think what I’m saying is still broadly true, and is probably true of the evangelicals who are making converts in Latin America.

Consider a hypothetical Latin American male–let’s call him Pedro. Pedro drinks heavily, and sometimes as a result he loses his temper and beats his wife and kids. Occasionally he visits a prostitute, and he often sits outside his house and whistles at pretty women going by. He’s a tough fighter and has beaten up a number of guys in bar fights. He doesn’t go to Mass as often as he should, and he knows that he’s in a state of sin a lot of the time. But he does go to confession at least a few times a year, and when he goes he has no problem honestly saying that he wants to lead a better life. It’s just that his habits are too much for him. And after all, each time he receives absolution his sins have been forgiven. It isn’t as if he’s having a long-term affair or any other sin that he’s wilfully attached to. It’s just that once he comes out of the confessional his old life rushes back.

Then his wife Maria starts going to the Pentecostal church down the road. Pedro doesn’t like this–he’s a good Catholic, after all, and his wife has always been a much better Catholic than he is. He even beats her up a few times, but she keeps going. And eventually he goes along too. The people at the Pentecostal church all seem very happy to be there–they’re a lot more excited about church than Pedro has ever imagined being. And they tell him that if he accepts Jesus into his heart he will receive the power to live a different kind of life. Pedro balks for a while, but eventually he goes to the altar, he prays the prayer, and he’s rebaptized in the river. Now he’s part of a community that expects him to stay away from the bar. If his wife comes home and finds him with drink on his breath, or discovers pornographic magazines tucked away in a drawer, she won’t just say, “Oh, Pedro committed another sin–I hope he gets himself to confession soon.” She will be horribly disappointed because sins like that mean that Pedro is backsliding (remember, Pentecostals, who make up the majority of Latin American Protestants, don’t believe in eternal security) and is not living the Christian life. If Pedro goes back to his old ways, he will lose most of his friends and will have shown himself to be a total failure at something very important. Also, his wife is a lot happier. . . .

I know that this is a very stereotyped story–Hispanics on the board may even find it offensive. And I admit that I haven’t been to Latin America myself. But I’ve read books, I’ve talked to people who do have first-hand experience, and I’ve spent a lot of time in Romania, where the situation is very similar. So I don’t think I’m being entirely unfair.

It may be comforting to speak as if all Catholics are wonderfully devout Christians and evangelicals are bigots seducing them into a cheap parody of Christianity, but it isn’t true. Evangelicalism often provides a communal support for living the Christian life, and a clear set of long-term expectations, that you just don’t get in the average Catholic parish here or in Latin America. And evangelical soteriology, while it can be antinomian, thinks of people’s salvation or damnation in terms of a long-term commitment rather than individual acts. Sometimes this can be helpful in encouraging people to try to live a holy life.

OK, call me a bigot. In fact that I believe firmly that Catholicism is at the very least closer to the truth than any other form of Christianity except possibly Orthodoxy. I’m saddened whenever I hear of someone leaving the Catholic Church. But the problem of Protestant evangelism will never be solved as long as you blame the Protestants. You need to be evangelizing your own fellow-Catholics, and then the Protestants won’t get a foothold. Until then, God bless them–at least through them people are being delivered from alcoholism and immorality and taught to study the Scriptures. (BTW, the “you” is rhetorical–I’m sure lots of you are doing a great job already, and your reward will be great in heaven.)

In Christ,

Edwin
 
One other point that several people raised–it is not true that all evangelical missionaries to Catholic countries think that Catholics are “not Christian.” Probably most would say that Catholics “can be Christians” but some are not. They would say the same of Protestants. The difference, in the view of evangelicals, is that an evangelical church expects a profession of personal faith on the part of every individual, and in the stricter churches expect the person to be living a life that shows clear evidence of the transforming grace of God. In some traditions (such as the one I come from) people are expected to give regular “testimonies” to the working of grace in their lives. Sure, this has all sorts of problems, but that’s the kind of thing evangelicals are thinking of when they talk about “being a Christian.”

One college friend of mine, when I baited him about going to Chile to convert the Catholics, said quite earnestly that he wished the Catholics would go down there and do it instead. And I know a lot of evangelicals who think the same thing. They don’t doubt that many Catholics have every bit as real a relationship with Crhist as any evangelical. They just aren’t willing to take the presence of such a relationship for granted in everyone who has been baptized and bears the label “Catholic.” Can you blame them?

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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Melchior:
I have heard the Orthodox complain about Protestant and Catholic missionaries going to Russia. Well sorry Orthodox folks but a country with an abortion rate that makes America look pro-life needs some evangelizing. And if the Orthodox won’t do it I am all for the Catholics doing it. Know what I mean?
It is readily apparent that you have no idea what the Orthodox church in Russia has suffered under Communism.Can you comprehend the fact that there have been more orthodox christians martyred in the last century than in all the previous 19 centuries combined and that Russia has borne the brunt of that persecution. Why are churches sending well funded missionaries into Russia when there is already a church there which needs our prayerful and financial support? How is it you are able to find fault with a church that has had many thousands of bishops, priests, monks and nuns murdered on the spot or carted off to camps to die.
 
Sherlock, Thanks for the link…I did look at it, and the opportunities are interesting…But, they are rather long term, and are expensive. I would LOVE to have the time and money to do some of this volunteer work…but cannot at this time…I have too many responsibilities here at home!

**I am thnking of a one to two week mission trip…This is what most churches who send groups out do…People often use their vacation time to serve. Our trip to Honduras was a little over a week, and gave us the opportunity to do a medical clinic (we took a doctor, a paramedic (me, but I don’t “run” anymore), and a couple of other people with some medical knowledge. We also did a Vacation Bible School for the local kids, that was fun. **

**Some of us worked on the construction of a school, too. **

**The point is that a week or so was an adequate time to get some important things done. Other teams came at other times of the year. **

 
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prodromos:
It is readily apparent that you have no idea what the Orthodox church in Russia has suffered under Communism.Can you comprehend the fact that there have been more orthodox christians martyred in the last century than in all the previous 19 centuries combined and that Russia has borne the brunt of that persecution. Why are churches sending well funded missionaries into Russia when there is already a church there which needs our prayerful and financial support? How is it you are able to find fault with a church that has had many thousands of bishops, priests, monks and nuns murdered on the spot or carted off to camps to die.
Prodromos,

Take it easy. I am very aware fo teh history of the Russian Church. And I give credit where credit is due. But a decade has passed and I have ssen churches that have existed that long do plenty of good. I am noty condemning the Orthodox church in Russia. But there are people there right now, who need the Gospel right now. How many decades are supposed to go by before people can be concerned for souls in Russia? But you are right Russia has had many many martyrs. I am not belittling the past but am talking about the future.

Now how about your current country of residence? How do you excuse the utterly secular state of affairs in an Orthodox country that does nto share Russia’s previous persecution? I have been to Greece and like you I am married to a Greek, I applaud your taste, btw :D). But Greece has an abortion rate over double that of the U.S. and regular church attendance is around 5%. Greece needs major evangelization. I remember walking through the Plaka in Athens and seeing all these little shops selling pornographic postcards, right next to Icons! I saw the same thing in Napflion, Hania and Heraklion. So I would have been better off menitoning Greece in the first place. But the same can be said for many a Lutheran, Calvinist and Catholic country as well. I am not picking on Orthodoxy. But I can’t stand when people complain about missionaries going to countries that are nominally Christian at best, and you cannot tell me that Greece is a serious Christian country. I chose to mention Orthodox complaints because that is who I hear it from the most - since I am married into an Orthodox family. But I also know there are plenty of good Christians, like you, in Greece. But I also know that the Orthodox church makes things pretty tough on the Protestant and Catholic minorities in Greece. Just go visit the Greek Evangelical Church in Thessaloniki and ask them how tough the Bishops makes things for them.

My point is that when the churches in Christian countries start doing there job and evangelizing their own people then they can complain about sheep stealing.

Finally, I am incredibly jealous of you. Thessaloniki is the next place I will visit in Greece. It is my wife’s favorite city.

Mel
 
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