Evangelical Missionaries in Catholic Countries

[BobCatholic]

Tyler Smedley:

I would agree that we are losing the numbers game

But we are winning the quality game in spades!

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0252.html

“While a lot of people leave the Church, they tend not to be good Catholics,” says Curtis Martin, president of Catholics United for the Faith, who himself returned to the Church after spending five years as an evangelical Protestant. “The Protestants [now] coming into the Church are the most devoted Protestants, people deeply committed to Scripture and prayer. We’re losing the numbers game but we are winning the quality game in spades.”

 

[SeanG]

Ric:

But SeanG, did I mention Ireland in that post?

No, but you did in the post immediately prior to it. So perhaps now that I’ve cleared that up, could you go back and answer the questions that I posed to you? Thanks.

 

[Ric]

But Ric, Christianity is not a minority in Ireland, a country to which your church also sends missionaries. In fact, it is arguably one of the most Christian countries on the planet. So why is it sending missionaries there?

Can you state for sure that the people sitting next to you in the pews in your very own church are truly Christians? I know I can’t! So we evangelize everyone! No matter their background!

You also noted that its congregations there “keeps on growing.” Whom is it reaching out to in its work of evangelization? Those who are already Christian?

I hope so! And more so those who are not Christian!

If they are reaching out to those who are already Christian, then it would seem that you have a different understanding of evangelization, at least in its fundamental meaning, than the Catholic Church has.

So be it.

If they are reaching out to those who are not Christian, then either you’re finding the few who have never been baptized in Ireland–which is fine–or you have a radically different understanding than the Catholic Church of the way in which one becomes a Christian.

I’ve never seen water baptism ever save anyone!

 

[Ontario]

I was having lunch a while back at a Baptist church sponsored event and a former Catholic women brought up her concern that her Catholic mother was “PRAYING TO STATUES”. I asked her if she could be mistaken and perhaps her mother was just praying in front of a statue of Mary. Since she insisted her mother was praying to the statue itself and the others at the table were offering their prayers for her poor mother, I suggested that her mother should talk to her priest. She replied that they were all Italian(whatever that is supposed to mean). Her being Italian herself I found this odd, but suggested that there were plenty of other priests to talk to.

My sole intent was to get the lady with whom I was speaking to understand that the Catholic Church does not teach that we should pray to statues and actually would condemn it as idolotry. Since she was brought up Catholic should she have known this? Even before coming back to the Church I knew that, but I must always remember there were lots of things I had forgotten or had justified over time.

POINT 1: Catholics need to be continually educated, and nothing should be taken for granted.

Another man, intending to be concilliatory added that “Catholics are the closest to Christian as one can get”. He suggested Catholic schools present religion academically and that Catholics don’t have a “PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with JESUS”
Of course the Church actually tells us we do need a relationship with Jesus.

POINT 2: Some protestants have mistaken conceptions about the Catholic Church and think all Catholics need to be saved.

He also brought up the issue of “PRAYING TO SAINTS”. I tried to explain that we are not worshipping the saint like God, but asking them to pray along with us to God.

POINT 3: Catholic terminology (and the Bible) can be confusing to people without adequate explanation.

My wife is Baptist and it took me a while to convince her we don’t pray to statues. She first recognized that I don’t, and now knows the Catholic church forbids it. However, she often states that she is sure there are many Catholics out there that do actually pray to a statue of Mary. She complains the Roman Catholic Church should do a better job teaching its own. (I usually respond that is we can to a better job, but not perfect->Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied him and they had Jesus face to face, so although the teaching is required, it also requires faith)

POINT 4: Many evangelicals will see problems(real or imaginary) with individual Catholics and therefore see the need to evangelize Catholics as a whole.

So some evangelicals see a need to evangelize Catholics and many Catholics are easily confused over issues.

 

[Ontario]

Ric:

If they are reaching out to those who are not Christian, then either you’re finding the few who have never been baptized in Ireland–which is fine–or you have a radically different understanding than the Catholic Church of the way in which one becomes a Christian.

I’ve never seen water baptism ever save anyone!

Have you ever heard that water baptism saves anyone?

1Peter3:20(NIV) “who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all were saved through water,”
1Peter 3:21(NIV) “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves - not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good concience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”

So water baptism is the initial point at which one is normally saved and of course following through on the pledge is the requirement, which is what I think you are getting at.

Matthew 24:13(NIV) “but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

So when we Catholics say “baptism saves” we are implicitly implying that the person actually does stand firm. If afterwards they fall into sin, out of a state of grace with God they will not go to heaven.

I believe that the Catholic Church presents the Gospel in its fullness and I would hope that the Catholic Church always reaches out to our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters, so that Christ’s prayer that we may be brought into complete unity(John 17:17-23) may be fullfilled.

 

[Delgadoajj]

Hello:

Many evangelical sects not just in South America, but also around the world, have had a tremendous success in converting many catholics mainly for one reason: they have fused Christian Evangelization with good ol’ American marketing and business sense and tactics. For example the “Iglesia Universal” (Universal Church), founded in Brazil about 12 years ago, has grown into one of the most lucrative businesses in that country. They have expanded into more than 40 countries, and boast profits of almost $500MM/yr. Here is a link that explains this phenomenon in detail: (it’s in Spanish, but I think you can pick the language)

http//es.catholic.net

The founder of this church comes from a catholic family, but he converted to protestantism, and finally came to the U.S., learned how to set up a T.V. evangelization program, went back to Brazil, and broke ground with an associate. Needless to say, the two associates had their disagreements, and separated, each with his own church.

Iglesia Universal has commercials almost every single night here in Houston in the Shanish TV. Their motto is: “Pare de Sufrir”, or in English this would be: “Stop Suffering”. Once the people go to the first event (for a price), they are told all their problems will go away with the church member’s prayer. There is only one catch: The new members have to follow the required program, which is not free. The people are sold such things as “the holy rose”, the blessed water of the Jordan River", “the blood of Christ”, “the sand of Jerusalem”, etc., etc. The poor people in these countries end up giving the little bit of money they have in order to buy some sense of “hope”. In reality it’s a fraud, and the church has been connected with the drug cartels of Colombia with money-laundering. The founder has been imprisoned, but the business keeps growing.

The Iglesia Universal is very structured, with the leader at the top, so-called “bishops”, and the ministers. The ministers get a fixed salary, a car, a house, etc. Economically they do very well, at the expense of the poor.

Also, Father Amatulli has studied this phenomenon in Mexico at great length. He is a Catholic priest and apologist in that country and has several books out. His web address is:

www.apostol.com

It’s no wonder why absolutes are necessary. Jesus talked about these false prophets. I think Catholics (laity) need to be more helpful in their parishes, and give a hand to the parish priest. We need to search our own charismas, abilities, and skills, and put them to work for the Kingdom of God. We need to live the Gospel of Christ by nurturing the faith from within us, of course, always under the guidance of the Church hierarchy, and always obedient to our bishops and priests. I’m just saying that the catholic laity needs to be more proactive: read the Bible, read the Catholic Catechism, read the Early Church Fathers, become involved in the parish and above all, be charitable, and show your love for others.

In Christ,

Jorge.

 

[SeanG]

Ric:

But Ric, Christianity is not a minority in Ireland, a country to which your church also sends missionaries. In fact, it is arguably one of the most Christian countries on the planet. So why is it sending missionaries there?

Can you state for sure that the people sitting next to you in the pews in your very own church are truly Christians? I know I can’t! So we evangelize everyone! No matter their background!

This is the point where we see a fundamental difference between Catholics and Evangelicals. The Catholic Church teaches that a person becomes a Christian by being baptized. With adults, this also involves them making a profession of faith. For children under the age of reason (a practice which has some basis in scripture and which, in any case, is not prohibited by it), such a profession is made by the child’s parents or guardians.

This does not, mean, of course, that this person is guaranteed to go to heaven. But the Church teaches (and its teaching on this matter are firmly rooted in scripture) that God provides through this his saving grace to the one being baptized.

Ric:

You also noted that its congregations there “keeps on growing.” Whom is it reaching out to in its work of evangelization? Those who are already Christian?

I hope so! And more so those who are not Christian!

As I’ve noted in previous posts, evangelization, strictly speaking, is an action directed to those who are not Christian. Now I think that it is also the work of the body of believers (i.e., the Church) to help bring individual members to the fullness of a continuing conversion. But, strictly speaking, this is a task that is different, in a fundamental way, from evangelization.

Ric:

If they are reaching out to those who are already Christian, then it would seem that you have a different understanding of evangelization, at least in its fundamental meaning, than the Catholic Church has.

So be it.

Such a difference is fine. But which position is true? And how do we establish this?

Ric:

If they are reaching out to those who are not Christian, then either you’re finding the few who have never been baptized in Ireland–which is fine–or you have a radically different understanding than the Catholic Church of the way in which one becomes a Christian.

I’ve never seen water baptism ever save anyone!

Grace is what saves a person. But, as scripture and the consistent historical teaching of the Church shows, God has ordained that this saving grace, in the ordinary course of events, comes to us first through baptism.

 

[Sherlock]

In answer to Sean’s initial question, I believe at the root of the problem is poor catechesis. If one is only attending Mass because, well, everyone else is and that’s how one was raised, then one might as well have a bull’s eye painted on the forehead. Without a firm understanding of what we are doing when we attend Mass, or a basic understanding of the sacraments, of Church authority, etc., etc.; Catholics will be prone to leave for a denomination that offers warm fuzzies and an absolute assurance of heaven. The same is true for Catholics in the United States. I know people who have left the Church for these reasons, and not one knew the basics of Catholicism. It’s easy to reject that what you do not understand in the first place. Those bishops and others charged with the task of teaching the faith will have a LOT to answer for when they meet God. This is not to take away personal responsibility: individuals have a responsibility to know their faith on their own—none of the people I know who have left the Church ever educated themselves before they left. It’s not as if the material isn’t out there, at least for Americans.

 

[JohnCarroll]

“Without a firm understanding of what we are doing when we attend Mass, or a basic understanding of the sacraments, of Church authority, etc., etc.; Catholics will be prone to leave for a denomination that offers warm fuzzies and an absolute assurance of heaven. The same is true for Catholics in the United States. I know people who have left the Church for these reasons, and not one knew the basics of Catholicism.”

Hello All,
I am new to this site but hope you won’t mind if I write. At the tender age of 55, I am an Evangelical about to enter the Catholic Church. I have known a few Catholics who have converted --and helped them to do so. For the most part you are right. Catholics who convert do not know their Faith or more correctly , they may know many things ABOUT The Church and the Lord but they never met the Lord --they never were converted. " Repent and be Baptised" , Peter said. They were Baptised but never really repented–that is turned from sin, turned and gave them selves to the Lord .

It wasn’t that they wanted warm fuzzys --they wanted the Lord. Usually what happens is they run into a Evangelical who is in love with Jesus. As C.S. Lewis says, Christianity is a disease you catch from another Christian. When Jesus is held up to a person who does not know Him , or know Him well, He is so beautiful that the lonely soul of the poor Catholic falls in love with Him. Of course we would want this person to meet the Lord in the Church but isn’t it better to meet Him somewhere, even if it is not in the Church? Once they meet the Lord, people tend to accept the Theology of those who introduced them to Him.

The really difficult thing to face may be that this wayward soul never found another catholic so in love with ( and willing to share) the “Pearl of Great Price” ( Jesus) , that he was never asked to give everything he had to buy It. And that is it , Evangelicals are asking the Soul to give everything --They say Jesus is not interested in a little partial gift of oneself. This is true of young people. The Pope knows this, and he asks them to turn to God with their whole heart.

I am still learning about the church so it might not be fair for me to offer these suggestions.
Sorry to but in,
JohnCarroll

P.S. How do I put those niffty boxes around the quote i am responding to and is there a spell checker around here?

 

[Brendan]

This is the attitude of the ‘Missionaries’

Here is an article about Evangelicals going to ‘spread the Gospel’ in Greece during the Olympics

crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1215419.html

Some quotes

Twenty centuries after the apostle Paul made history-making mission trips to Thessaloniki (Thessalonica) and Korinthos (Corinth) and eternalized the ancient cities through his letters to the Christians there, Greece today is anything but a Christian country.

Though 98 percent of the population belong to the Greek Orthodox Church; evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic churches comprise some 0.14 percent of the population, or a mere 15,000 people out of 10.5 million.

Hmmm, being 98% Greek Orthodox does qualify as being a ‘Christian’ country.

Any comment on that one Ric?

 

[BobCatholic]

Brendan:

Hmmm, being 98% Greek Orthodox does qualify as being a ‘Christian’ country.

See, they are being bigoted, thinking that EO’s are not Christian. Can you imagine what they think of us? Sheesh.

 

[Ourladyguadalup]

Fullsizesedan:

Historically, there were a lot of Catholic missionaries in the United States in the 19th and 20th century, and even today, the Catholic church does accept converts from protestantism , even those who don’t have Catholic spouses/children or other non-religious reasons for converting.

There has been some changes with the current pope and the vatican council, but it isn’t an absolute bar to interdenominational conversions. And even if it were, many of the evangelical churches involved in missionary work are not members of any oecumenical groups by ways that a quid pro quo of ‘hands off’ our people could be made. Unless there is an agreement, I don’t think that foul play can really be alleged.

Sure the Catholic Church “accepts” converts from other denoms, but I think that is very different than the very aggressive “religious colonialism” practiced by the American evangelical groups. To me their attitude is downright disrespectful, but I realize the intentions of many are good & the lack of knowledge of Church History plays a great part. Also I think the fact that among SOME Catholics, there are superstitions that the evangelicals mistakenly think are Catholic teachings that they need to save us from.

They simply haven’t considered some things: the read it & decide for yourself brand of religion they practice - how did God expect people to be “saved” when 90+% of the population was illiterate? My experience with most Christians is that most just do not know that they owe the Bible to Catholic Church. This includes high-school dropouts & MBAs alike.

Kristine Franklin covers this subject so well in “Surprised By Truth II” (edited by Patrick Madrid).

 

[BobCatholic]

Ric:

Our church also has missionaries in Mozambique and Angola, would you care to join us?

Mozambique has 50% indigenous beliefs, 30% Christian, and 20% Muslim.

Angola has 47% indigenous beliefs, 38% Roman Catholic, and 15% Protestant.

As you can see in both Countries Christianity is a minority faith and our missionaries lives are in jeopardy every day.

However, that is not the case in Poland, most of the Eastern European countries, and Greece have Christianity as the overwhelming dominant faith. For Poland, it is 94% Catholic, 6% Eastern Orthodox. For Greece, it is 98% Orthodox, 2% Catholic. Why do evangelicals evangelize there? It is a waste of time.

 

[Poisson]

SeanG:

I think that wide presence and apparent effectiveness of Evangelical missionaries in traditionally Catholic countries (especially in Central and South America) is a phenomenon about which Catholics in general should be concerned.

This brings up a question I have had for some time. There is an Evangelical radio station I listen to occasionally (only when my Catholic station dosesn’t come in) and they really push a child sponsorship program and say they not only feed the child but teach them about Jesus. I wondered, would they sponsor a Catholic child or a child who does not “accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour”? Do they focus their attention on converting Catholics?
If the answers to these questions are yes, should Catholics be contributing to Evangelical relief groups? I’m sure alot do.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

I think the point is that they are snding missionaries to convert people that already have a christian faith on the belif they are not christian…but I go back to the point I make on another thread, they would not convert if the leadeship and teacehrs did a better job of teaching them the faith…

They would have a hard time converting me…as you well now
simply because I have been blessed with a good faith foundation…but most catholics…and protestants for that matter lack that foundation

 

[Fidelis]

Properly speaking, what Ric is describing his church as doing in places such as Ireland is not evangelization, but “proselytizing,” also less delicately known as sheep-stealing. True evangelization is presenting the gospel to those who have never heard it. If someone, a Catholic, for example, identifies themself as a Christian, he should be respected as such, and let the soundness of his faith be judged by God, not the proselytizer. If that person needs to be strengthened in the faith he has, that is one thing. But to make the judgement for him that he is not a Christian because he does not meet your criteria is presumptuous, to say the least.

If Ric feels that he can’t even be sure that the person sitting in the pew next to him in his own church is a Christian (as he shares in one of his posts), I suggest his “evangelization” team start there and let other churches do the same.

Which brings up the original question of this thread, what can Catholics do about it? Strong catechesis and apologetics basic training, and Catholic Bible study for all adult Catholics. If people know the True Faith, they won’t fall for a weak substitute. How do they get that? Don’t depend on Father to do it–those days are gone, brothers and sisters, because with the shortage of priests, Father has his hands full. Pick up the mantle yourself; start an apologetics class in your parish NOW and mentor reliable people to do the same and keep it going so you don’t burn out. My wife and I have jumped in on this and we can do it ANYONE here can do it. No excuses.

 

[Ric]

BobCatholic:

However, that is not the case in Poland, most of the Eastern European countries, and Greece have Christianity as the overwhelming dominant faith. For Poland, it is 94% Catholic, 6% Eastern Orthodox. For Greece, it is 98% Orthodox, 2% Catholic. Why do evangelicals evangelize there? It is a waste of time.

Nope, sorry - that will not fly. You know why?

Because we even evangelize throughout the United States, the most “Christian” country on the face of the Earth. (Yes, that means we even evangelize in the pews!)

 

[Ric]

Richard Lamb:

I think the point is that they are snding missionaries to convert people that already have a christian faith on the belif they are not christian…but I go back to the point I make on another thread, they would not convert if the leadeship and teacehrs did a better job of teaching them the faith…

They would have a hard time converting me…as you well now
simply because I have been blessed with a good faith foundation…but most catholics…and protestants for that matter lack that foundation

Do you know how many people sitting next to you in the pews are actually not saved?

 

[Ric]

Fidelis:

Properly speaking, what Ric is describing his church as doing in places such as Ireland is not evangelization, but “proselytizing,” also less delicately known as sheep-stealing. True evangelization is presenting the gospel to those who have never heard it. If someone, a Catholic, for example, identifies themself as a Christian, he should be respected as such, and let the soundness of his faith be judged by God, not the proselytizer. If that person needs to be strengthened in the faith he has, that is one thing. But to make the judgement for him that he is not a Christian because he does not meet your criteria is presumptuous, to say the least.

If Ric feels that he can’t even be sure that the person sitting in the pew next to him in his own church is a Christian (as he shares in one of his posts), I suggest his “evangelization” team start there and let other churches do the same.

Which brings up the original question of this thread, what can Catholics do about it? Strong catechesis and apologetics basic training, and Catholic Bible study for all adult Catholics. If people know the True Faith, they won’t fall for a weak substitute. How do they get that? Don’t depend on Father to do it–those days are gone, brothers and sisters, because with the shortage of priests, Father has his hands full. Pick up the mantle yourself; start an apologetics class in your parish NOW and mentor reliable people to do the same and keep it going so you don’t burn out. My wife and I have jumped in on this and we can do it ANYONE here can do it. No excuses.

[marquee]Semantics[/marquee]

 

[Fidelis]

Semantics?