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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Gabriel12 into your insight regarding our own missives in not defending our Catholic faith more strongly…
Evangelical Prophetic Dance has become the RC Liturgical dance!
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Auriel
Guest
Years ago I attended a service at an Episcopalian Church at the request of a friend who was dancing that night She was also a professional Ballet dancer so it was beautiful and graceful.
Now please bear in my before reading the rest of this, that I am not a church goer.
When I watched this clip and saw the giant Jesus mask and hands, I couldn’t help but laugh hard. Not to be evil or mean of course, I also try to look at this from their point of view, perhaps this is how they express their love for their creator and it draws them closer to Him, which is not a bad thing.
I was just picturing the time I attended one Easter morning Service with a relative. It was so dull, and it did not help that the music was terrible and the preacher had a voice like the guy who does the dry eye commercials. The pews were very comfortable and the sound of the droning voice lulled me to sleep, which was embarrassing. I was imagining waking up to see the giant creepy Jesus mask and hands coming at me, I would have jumped out of my skin! There would be no more sleeping in a pew for me!!!
Now please bear in my before reading the rest of this, that I am not a church goer.
When I watched this clip and saw the giant Jesus mask and hands, I couldn’t help but laugh hard. Not to be evil or mean of course, I also try to look at this from their point of view, perhaps this is how they express their love for their creator and it draws them closer to Him, which is not a bad thing.
I was just picturing the time I attended one Easter morning Service with a relative. It was so dull, and it did not help that the music was terrible and the preacher had a voice like the guy who does the dry eye commercials. The pews were very comfortable and the sound of the droning voice lulled me to sleep, which was embarrassing. I was imagining waking up to see the giant creepy Jesus mask and hands coming at me, I would have jumped out of my skin! There would be no more sleeping in a pew for me!!!
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amontoya
Guest
Those puppets creep me out! :frighten:Oh no the horrible Evangelical Prophetic Dance has become the RC Liturgical dance!
The rest is good. I don’t think the most Evangelical or Chrismatic Anglican would go anywhere near that far. I’m impressed.
youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
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elts1956
Guest
This is not just one instance. Check these out. There was also a Halloween Mass with all that implies at one of the parishes.
youtube.com/watch?v=wedpLBTKd84&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=Fv_y47x9kSk&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=4ovRwra4kzQ&feature=related
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Reuben_J
Guest
One should make the mass more interesting and perhaps vibrating but it should not contradict the GIRM. There are lots that can be done to improve the homily, choir and the ambience. But the mass should not be changed and compromised for the sake of making it interesting.
The mass is a worship where miracle takes place regardless of boring priest or outdated choir and it should be interesting for those who love it. What can possibly beat the transformation of the Lord into his real body and blood to be shared by all?
God bless.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Elts,
I had trouble downloading these…but you are from Illinois. The one movement at Mass you can be creative with is the beginning, when the presbyter, lector, cross bearer and attendants enter the altar space, and the presbyter then greets the assembly with a message relating to the theme of the Mass.
But all movements and expressions must relay the truth of Who Christ is, His sacred dignity, and His mission, and the solemnity of the Sacrifice.
What people also react to are people not dressed modestly in these events. I think it improper people wear leotards and show the shape of their bodies.
I was a lector this past year. Finally we had a session. The administrators said no sleeveless tops, shorts, flip flop shoes. (I was guilty of the shoe thing in the summer- once.)
A priest told a parish-- which is the exact opposite of this one-- where they go to Mass for God and want little or nothing to do with your neighbor…on the feast day of Guadalupe, the presbyter came in and entered the altar. Then a little Mexican boy came down the aisle by his little self , carrying a bouquet of roses and placed them in front of a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the priest acknowledged this particular Mass in honor of her feastday, and then began. There are some there who would not have tolerated the little boy doing that simple expression. I saw a liturgical dance in Mexico where the women wore long white dresses, very modest in dress, and turned as they went up, very beautiful.
I went to African Masses and they were really into instrumentals. At the offertory, all went forward to donate their earnings to the church by putting it into these large baskets. They do alot of dance. Their Kyrie Eleison is very lively, but holy as is the Gregorian Chants.
Inculturation of peoples so they can have liturgies they can relate to. But the message and parts are always the same.
There are norms for liturgical dance, but if I recall, either they have been greatly restricted…I haven’t had time to research them.
The Church has the Roman Missal as the roadmap bishops and pastors follow in developing pastoral liturgies reflective of the common people. Norms are drawn from the Roman Missal. But Pope Benedict is now appearing to reverse some things, like the priest have his back to the people so he is no longer a celebrity in some places.
Latin is used in exorcisms, its dead language is now the Language of Angels…so people hear things like that, and want more power of God at our Masses because we are surrounded by alot of bad. He is working on restoring more Latin.
I had trouble downloading these…but you are from Illinois. The one movement at Mass you can be creative with is the beginning, when the presbyter, lector, cross bearer and attendants enter the altar space, and the presbyter then greets the assembly with a message relating to the theme of the Mass.
But all movements and expressions must relay the truth of Who Christ is, His sacred dignity, and His mission, and the solemnity of the Sacrifice.
What people also react to are people not dressed modestly in these events. I think it improper people wear leotards and show the shape of their bodies.
I was a lector this past year. Finally we had a session. The administrators said no sleeveless tops, shorts, flip flop shoes. (I was guilty of the shoe thing in the summer- once.)
A priest told a parish-- which is the exact opposite of this one-- where they go to Mass for God and want little or nothing to do with your neighbor…on the feast day of Guadalupe, the presbyter came in and entered the altar. Then a little Mexican boy came down the aisle by his little self , carrying a bouquet of roses and placed them in front of a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the priest acknowledged this particular Mass in honor of her feastday, and then began. There are some there who would not have tolerated the little boy doing that simple expression. I saw a liturgical dance in Mexico where the women wore long white dresses, very modest in dress, and turned as they went up, very beautiful.
I went to African Masses and they were really into instrumentals. At the offertory, all went forward to donate their earnings to the church by putting it into these large baskets. They do alot of dance. Their Kyrie Eleison is very lively, but holy as is the Gregorian Chants.
Inculturation of peoples so they can have liturgies they can relate to. But the message and parts are always the same.
There are norms for liturgical dance, but if I recall, either they have been greatly restricted…I haven’t had time to research them.
The Church has the Roman Missal as the roadmap bishops and pastors follow in developing pastoral liturgies reflective of the common people. Norms are drawn from the Roman Missal. But Pope Benedict is now appearing to reverse some things, like the priest have his back to the people so he is no longer a celebrity in some places.
Latin is used in exorcisms, its dead language is now the Language of Angels…so people hear things like that, and want more power of God at our Masses because we are surrounded by alot of bad. He is working on restoring more Latin.
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elts1956
Guest
I remember as a child attending Mass in the Veterans Hall in the town where my Grandparents lived as the Church was being renovated, or had burned. I was too young at the time to remember the circumstances. BUT we DID NOT have clowns, puppets and people dancing in the aisles. We observed the traditional and true Mass where the focus was on the Eucharist, the central Sacrament in our Church.
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Steven_John
Guest
Hmm,
as you know from my previous post i have issues with the disrespect we at times show in mass.
I have just looked at some of the you tube videos and yes there are some big issues.
I consider the Church to be well structured for dealing with our issues.
What kind of Catholic goes to so much effort to video a service to you tube?
For those of you that are Catholic is the Church like your mother?
When your birth Mother has problems what do you do? video her and plonk it on you tube so the infidels can sort her out?
I doubt it.
While the videos content have some content that concerns me the person that video and posted on you tube actually concerns me also.
When your Mother is having trouble dont embarrass her before the whole world.
The Church has a structure, you have brethren and elders to peer and pray with you. Deacons, Priests, Bishops Arch Bishops … to help guide her.
We are blessed to have discussions places like CAF to share our opinions.
If you still believe they are away from G-d dust off and move on.
For the makers of the you tube videos I pray they be strengthened by G-d to stop being so weak.
as you know from my previous post i have issues with the disrespect we at times show in mass.
I have just looked at some of the you tube videos and yes there are some big issues.
I consider the Church to be well structured for dealing with our issues.
What kind of Catholic goes to so much effort to video a service to you tube?
For those of you that are Catholic is the Church like your mother?
When your birth Mother has problems what do you do? video her and plonk it on you tube so the infidels can sort her out?
I doubt it.
While the videos content have some content that concerns me the person that video and posted on you tube actually concerns me also.
When your Mother is having trouble dont embarrass her before the whole world.
The Church has a structure, you have brethren and elders to peer and pray with you. Deacons, Priests, Bishops Arch Bishops … to help guide her.
We are blessed to have discussions places like CAF to share our opinions.
If you still believe they are away from G-d dust off and move on.
For the makers of the you tube videos I pray they be strengthened by G-d to stop being so weak.
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elts1956
Guest
With all due respect, I have never heard of “liturgical dance”. I have read of David dancing before the Ark, but that was long ago. The problem with lifting restrictions as to what is done and not done before the beginning of Mass is that this need for “entertainment” has leaked over into the Mass itself. I posted links in a previous note that show the very great abuse being allowed by some presbyters (priests?) during the Mass itself. Abuse is insiduous. Once begun, it usually reigns free unless the person (the priest) in charge takes charge and prevents escalation of the abuse. In these days of technology titillation has become a necessity for our culture. All “entertainment” at Mass leads us away from the Sacrifice of the Mass as it has been done for centuries resulting in Christ’s Sacrifice being placed in a secondary position, or not acknowledged at all. These are not true Masses.
The connection to Christ comes from within, not from without each individual. No liturgical dance in Chruch for me my friend. Uh uh. The “theme” of each Mass is the adoration of the Eucharist.
We have one “entertainment” at Mass in our Parish during the year. This is a Polish Mass celebrated on, of all Sundays, the first Sunday in October, which is Respect Life Sunday. I have attended twice, once out of curiosity and the second out of necessity. Let me tell you, I didn’t feel the presence of Christ as being the center, or focus of adoration during the Mass. People were too busy clapping for the band. Unfortunately, this has become a very strong tradition in our Parish and there is no hope changing it. Our poor pastor would be strung up in the bell tower if he said anything against it.
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elts1956
Guest
Unfortunately many of our Deacons, Priests, Bishops, Arch Bishops etc DO NOT help guide her as is seen on utube. If it weren’t for videos and utube many laity will cooperate in what they don’t know is wrong, or in what they have been led to believe is right. It is the clergy who are promulgating the abuse who need to straighten up their act, not those who post videos on utube and keep us informed.
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Steven_John
Guest
Amen
So they have lost their bibles and their copy of the catechism??
If the spirit wont guide them you tube will???
Amen
Then if your mother was doing the wrong thing you would drag her into the public eye on you tube?
Public embarrassment of your own room in The House IMO is far from loving.
Posting on the tube is not faith in Our Father.
It is not faith in the structure of the Church.
If the structure lets Our Father down change it.
“the Church aint fixing it i will turn to you tube” NAY BUT G-D CAN and will if the Catholic Church is the One True Church as claimed.
But if anyone thinks its not the One True Church post away and show the world what She actually is to you.
I am sure no one watches the video posted on the tube and says “i want to convert”.
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elts1956
Guest
Mind you, this is only my very humble opinion. I think the Church in the US has been asleep for the past 30 to 40 years and if utube is the only way to shock people into seeing the abuse happening in the liturgy of some of our dioceses and parishes, then I say go for it. The folks supporting the abuse aren’t embarressed by their actions. If exposure to what is happening is an embarrassment for others, then perhaps a cry for reform and a return to true liturgy will become loud enough that change will happen.
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Steven_John
Guest
I respect your opinion, I praise G-d and thank Him for wanting what is right.
But in previous post you offered those supporting are ignorant. So no they are not embarrassed, but now thanks to you tube they can become so. In love do we embarrass the ignorant or help them to get educated and spirit guided? Better than embarrass them before the entire world on the www maybe to invite them to our bible study and prayer groups so the can learn and seek guidance from Our Father.
My understanding of The One True Church is that its members are ONE BODY so embarrass one part is to embarrass the whole body.
If you embarrass the wife you embarrass the husband.
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elts1956
Guest
Seems to me I have heard somewhere the old addage, “God helps those who help themselves”. I do think we must pray, but also ACT in any legitimate fashion we can. People can justify any action, or inaction because of their claim to ignornance. There is little justification for ignorance, especially of the BIG issues, such as liturgy and life issues, in this time in history. People should be embarrassed (I am and also shamed.) by the liturgy offered in some Catholic dioceses and parishes. They give scandal to the ignorant and sap hope and strength from the faithful.
S
Steven_John
Guest
I went to a lay led liturgy one day and the pastoral assistant a Missionary Sister of service was intended to lead us.
She read a homily from a book, it inferred the most important thing for people to do is to love each other.
In our intercessory prayer i prayed that we never be led astray buy mistakes made when trying to help guide each other.
After the service i waited until every one but the Sister had left.
As lovingly as i could i challenged her that acknowledgement, worship and service of Our Father is the most important. What she had offered is like it and is next. That it is a natural progression of the first its fruit if you like.
Oh no she says serving and loving each other is the most important.
I said to her even Buddhists will do this but they will need more mercy as they do not understand why they will do this.
Her position was every one goes to heaven.
I tried to get her to see this as not best guidance.
She never conceded even a little as in her words i am wrong.
BUT she has never read like this again in my presence, praise be to G-d.
I have had difficulties with PPs before and have had to contact the bishop who always sides with the PP but again the issues are gone, praise be to G-d.
Dont suck into faith that wrongs wont be righted if you give them to G-d.
Dont suck into faith that G-d needs utube to fix those who say they are His.
FAITH WORKS BOTH WAYS.
If i saw error in your life would you want me to pump you on the tube or ask Our Father to guide you AND KNOW WITHOUT DOUBT HIS WILL WILL BE DONE?
I love you lots and am so grateful that Our Father gifts you with discernment of right and wrong. Seek wisdom on how to love those in error please for the glory of G-d.
I myself fall to error and i want love, mercy, patience not world wide embarrassment FOR ALL THE BODY I AM A SMALL PART OF.
PS 1 video i watched on this subject had an agenda at bringing down a bishop, they have given up on building him up, thank G-d He does not give up on me.
She read a homily from a book, it inferred the most important thing for people to do is to love each other.
In our intercessory prayer i prayed that we never be led astray buy mistakes made when trying to help guide each other.
After the service i waited until every one but the Sister had left.
As lovingly as i could i challenged her that acknowledgement, worship and service of Our Father is the most important. What she had offered is like it and is next. That it is a natural progression of the first its fruit if you like.
Oh no she says serving and loving each other is the most important.
I said to her even Buddhists will do this but they will need more mercy as they do not understand why they will do this.
Her position was every one goes to heaven.
I tried to get her to see this as not best guidance.
She never conceded even a little as in her words i am wrong.
BUT she has never read like this again in my presence, praise be to G-d.
I have had difficulties with PPs before and have had to contact the bishop who always sides with the PP but again the issues are gone, praise be to G-d.
Dont suck into faith that wrongs wont be righted if you give them to G-d.
Dont suck into faith that G-d needs utube to fix those who say they are His.
FAITH WORKS BOTH WAYS.
If i saw error in your life would you want me to pump you on the tube or ask Our Father to guide you AND KNOW WITHOUT DOUBT HIS WILL WILL BE DONE?
I love you lots and am so grateful that Our Father gifts you with discernment of right and wrong. Seek wisdom on how to love those in error please for the glory of G-d.
I myself fall to error and i want love, mercy, patience not world wide embarrassment FOR ALL THE BODY I AM A SMALL PART OF.
PS 1 video i watched on this subject had an agenda at bringing down a bishop, they have given up on building him up, thank G-d He does not give up on me.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I did a brief study on liturgical dance.
Liturgical dance is banned in Western societies because it falls into the profane, a spectacle. It is not to be used by children as well.
However, there are dance forms that are as prayer in African and Asian cultures. In Orthodox weddings the bride and groom do a circular dance. The Jewish culture also lauded dance in praising God.
To have liturgical dance, besides it being a form of prayer, it must be under the jurisdiction of ecclesial authorities who are thus commissioned in this area.
There is more to add, but the above is essentially the essence. The National Conference of Bishops in America banned liturgical dance in 1982.
Liturgical dance is banned in Western societies because it falls into the profane, a spectacle. It is not to be used by children as well.
However, there are dance forms that are as prayer in African and Asian cultures. In Orthodox weddings the bride and groom do a circular dance. The Jewish culture also lauded dance in praising God.
To have liturgical dance, besides it being a form of prayer, it must be under the jurisdiction of ecclesial authorities who are thus commissioned in this area.
There is more to add, but the above is essentially the essence. The National Conference of Bishops in America banned liturgical dance in 1982.
S
Steven_John
Guest
That maybe so i hear it much is it a bible quote? I know G-d helps us to help him.
I dont see you tube as helping i see it as negative action to bring change by negative public humiliation to the whole body.
I am saying IMO you tube is not legitimate method to seek G-ds guidance
There is where i live when it comes to RCIA we do not educated people on all facets of Catholicism. We have too few parishioners running bible studies and prayer groups (maybe they are busy posting on utube. LOL) Their ignorance is often my fault.
i dont think you are supposed to be embarrassed by the action of others, i get embarrassed because i am not positively active enough. Easy to bag and post on utube hard to patiently build a strong relationship with you PP to create a path to gently help them.
more so when posted on utube.
only if our actions are faith in the negative, faith in the positive reveals Christain hope as limitless for the G-d of Yeshua (pbwh).
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I don’t know what to think in terms of people exposing such liturgies…I believe that parish in Illinois was probably the most extreme everywhere, and perhaps by now, such abuses ceased.
It was very painful for us in America to see so much news on the priest scandal. Problem was 3 to 5% of the clergy were guilty, most should not have been ordained…and 95% of the priesthood are most decent priests. But the news was so overwhelming…and if seculars do the same crime, the media and government pass over…the Dept of Education is 100 times more deviant that that fraction of priests, but it seems the priesthood is the worst. All because of publicity.
I also heard a few weeks ago that there are people using You Tube to profane the Eucharist.
About giving homilies at Mass, only ordained priests and deacons are to preach; however non-ordained can share theological reflections…after the priest/deacon preaches on the Gospel. Most people can’t listen beyond 20 minutes.
I considered being a woman religious in the apostolic life many years ago, but it was this sort of spirit Stephen referred to that compelled me not to pursue it and instead live the life of a mother in my home with the companionship of Mary, our Mother.
There is so much scandal and Christ said those who cause it and mislead the little ones should have a millstone tied around their neck and dropped into the bottom of the ocean.
I keep getting this impression in reflective prayer that if we live by God’s power through Jesus, His Word and Eucharist, and not live by the world’s, and see that everything we are and do, and unite with Christ, each day, and be the salt of the earth in the little places God has placed us, we can help deflect on the spiritual harm that comes to humanity.
I am rather ‘in the middle’ about the viewing of the liturgy on You Tube…and it probably is one or two or three that have gone that far…if they continue, it must be very private now. Opposite of professing our faith to the world.
Tonight I was very tired. I worked all Friday night and then today. There was a contemplative Mass at 8:30 13 miles from my home. Right now it is bitterly cold out, windy. I had dinner and rested and got the grace to go to Mass and fulfill my duty to the Sabbath. My son and I went in to a candle light Mass. On the altar was an art form of Jesus on the cross, elongated, lights on two sides so you can also see the shadow of Christ and the cross against the walls. There was an Advent wreath with 2 candles lit. Next to the altar, was a lit picture of Mary of Guadalupe. Across the church were statues of Mary and Joseph representing the Holy Family. There were candles lit, and the rest of the church was dark. We could not see each other very well…it was like everything and everyone was darkened out so we could only see reflections of God and sacred symbols. The music was instrumental, beautiful. At the end of Mass we prayed the Regina Coeli in Latin. Then we quietly went out. That is a contemplative Mass. There is another on the east side and these draw alot of people seeking spirituality in darkness and the candlelight, quiet and tuning out the world and all its problems.
It was very painful for us in America to see so much news on the priest scandal. Problem was 3 to 5% of the clergy were guilty, most should not have been ordained…and 95% of the priesthood are most decent priests. But the news was so overwhelming…and if seculars do the same crime, the media and government pass over…the Dept of Education is 100 times more deviant that that fraction of priests, but it seems the priesthood is the worst. All because of publicity.
I also heard a few weeks ago that there are people using You Tube to profane the Eucharist.
About giving homilies at Mass, only ordained priests and deacons are to preach; however non-ordained can share theological reflections…after the priest/deacon preaches on the Gospel. Most people can’t listen beyond 20 minutes.
I considered being a woman religious in the apostolic life many years ago, but it was this sort of spirit Stephen referred to that compelled me not to pursue it and instead live the life of a mother in my home with the companionship of Mary, our Mother.
There is so much scandal and Christ said those who cause it and mislead the little ones should have a millstone tied around their neck and dropped into the bottom of the ocean.
I keep getting this impression in reflective prayer that if we live by God’s power through Jesus, His Word and Eucharist, and not live by the world’s, and see that everything we are and do, and unite with Christ, each day, and be the salt of the earth in the little places God has placed us, we can help deflect on the spiritual harm that comes to humanity.
I am rather ‘in the middle’ about the viewing of the liturgy on You Tube…and it probably is one or two or three that have gone that far…if they continue, it must be very private now. Opposite of professing our faith to the world.
Tonight I was very tired. I worked all Friday night and then today. There was a contemplative Mass at 8:30 13 miles from my home. Right now it is bitterly cold out, windy. I had dinner and rested and got the grace to go to Mass and fulfill my duty to the Sabbath. My son and I went in to a candle light Mass. On the altar was an art form of Jesus on the cross, elongated, lights on two sides so you can also see the shadow of Christ and the cross against the walls. There was an Advent wreath with 2 candles lit. Next to the altar, was a lit picture of Mary of Guadalupe. Across the church were statues of Mary and Joseph representing the Holy Family. There were candles lit, and the rest of the church was dark. We could not see each other very well…it was like everything and everyone was darkened out so we could only see reflections of God and sacred symbols. The music was instrumental, beautiful. At the end of Mass we prayed the Regina Coeli in Latin. Then we quietly went out. That is a contemplative Mass. There is another on the east side and these draw alot of people seeking spirituality in darkness and the candlelight, quiet and tuning out the world and all its problems.
E
elts1956
Guest
Sounds beautiful. At our Church, I am ashamed to say, as soon as our Priest retires to the back of the Church everyone piles out of the pews and and conversations begin, with our backs to the tabernacle. Yes, I have been guilty too. How we have found ourselves in this situtuation and how to suggest a respectul change, I have no idea. I try to remember where I am, wait until the final stanza of a song, if sung, is over and then leave the pew, most of the time I don’t talk to anyone. I am trying.
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