Evangelicals and the Nicene Creed

[alwayswill]

What do Evangelicals believe, in regard to the Nicene Creed? In several discussions, recently, I have used this Creed to represent what Christians must accept, but do Evangelical (non-denominational) believers accept it all?

In my non -denominational church we accept the Nicene Creed.

However; We don’t believe anything BECAUSE of any creed:

We accept the Nicene Creed BECAUSE it agrees with Scripture

We see a good creed as being an important , useful, and accurate summary of what the whole council of Scripture teaches.

I hope that explains the perspective of creeds in a Sola Scriptura practicing Church

 

[rcwitness]

In my non -denominational church we accept the Nicene Creed.

Good to hear. Do you believe that Baptism is “for the remission of sins”?

However; We don’t believe anything BECAUSE of any creed:

Yes, that would be backwards. A creed is a profession of what we believe.

We accept the Nicene Creed BECAUSE it agrees with Scripture

The Church would not have formulated, Confirmed and profess it if it did not agree with Scripture.

We see good creeds as an accurate summary of what the whole council of Scripture teaches.

Does the Church have a bad creed?

I hope that explains the perspective of creeds in a Sola Scriptura practicing Church

I’m interested in the Nicene specifically, since it is arose in the ancient days, pre schism and denominations.

 

[alwayswill]

Good to hear. Do you believe that Baptism is “for the remission of sins”?

…

yep:

Because there are two types of baptism in the New Testament: water baptism and spiritual baptism (regeneration).

1 Peter 3:21 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

see also:

Mark 1:8;
8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Romans 6:4;
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

[alwayswill]

Does the Church have a bad creed?

I don’t know of every creed that the Catholic Church holds

 

[rcwitness]

Because there are two types of baptism in the New Testament: water baptism and spiritual baptism (regeneration).

The Creed states: “… I confess ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

Scripture states:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

1 Peter 3:21 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So you believe this is not referring to the Sacrament (Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with water)? Is the Sacramental Baptism for the removal of dirt from the flesh, then?

Mark 1:8

This was John the Baptist. It was a temporary Baptism until Jesus and His Gospel was accomplished. Those who received this Baptism were Baptized into Jesus apart from this Baptism.
Acts 19
While Apol′los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.

Romans 6:4

How does this teach two Baptisms?

Colossians 2:12

And how does this teach two Baptisms?

 

[alwayswill]

The Creed states: “… I confess ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

Scripture states:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,*one Lord, one faith, one baptism,*one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

So you believe this is not referring to the Sacrament (Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with water)? Is the Sacramental Baptism for the removal of dirt from the flesh, then?

see also:

This was John the Baptist. It was a temporary Baptism until Jesus and His Gospel was accomplished. Those who received this Baptism were Baptized into Jesus apart from this Baptism.
Acts 19
While Apol′los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.**And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”**And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.”*And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”**On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.**And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.*There were about twelve of them in all.

How does this teach two Baptisms?

And how does this teach two Baptisms?

ok : this is your thread: and If you want to discuss the salvific effect of water baptism : I will

Peter made clear that he did not want readers to think he was referring to water baptism when he specifically said not the removal of dirt from the flesh. That he was actually referring to a spiritual reality when he wrote baptism now saves is also clear from the phrase, an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The only baptism that saves people is dry—the spiritual one into the death as well as the resurrection of Christ—of those who appeal to God to place them into the spiritual ark of salvation safety (cf. Rom. 10:9–10).

I reject that water baptism saves any more that physical circumcision did in the OT…
It is and always has been a heart issue:
“Circumcise yourselves to the Lord; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire” (v. 4).

• Jeremiah 4:1–4

The ONE baptism that I confess for the remission of sins is the baptism of the Holy Spirit …
It is a change of the heart

Immersion ( what the word baptism actually means) is a command from Christ to believers as a public display to identify with Christ’s death, burial an resurrection…

I know you don’t agree with me: but know this : I have a reason and answer for the faith I have.

 

[rcwitness]

ok : this is your thread: and If you want to discuss the salvific effect of water baptism : I will

I reject that water baptism saves any more that physical circumcision did in the OT…
It is and always has been a heart issue:
“Circumcise yourselves to the Lord; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire” (v. 4).

• Jeremiah 4:1–4

This is a call to inward conversion. It is the same thing Jesus meant, when He said, "Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved."
Belief is necessary to cooperate with Baptismal grace.

The ONE baptism that I confess for the remission of sins is the baptism of the Holy Spirit …
It is a change of the heart

Do you believe the Nicene Creed authors believed in two separate Baptisms? One with water ONLY and then the Holy Spirit apart from this?

Immersion ( what the word baptism actually means) is a command from Christ to believers as a public display to identify with Christ’s death, burial an resurrection…

Can you show the bolder part, specifically expressed in Scripture? I don’t agree with defining Baptism in this manner.

I know you don’t agree with me: but know this : I have a reason and answer for the faith I have.

I agree with the Church, and with you when you agree with the Church.

 

[alwayswill]

This is a call to inward conversion. It is the same thing Jesus meant, when He said, "Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved."
Belief is necessary to cooperate with Baptismal grace.

Do you believe the Nicene Creed authors believed in two separate Baptisms? One with water ONLY and then the Holy Spirit apart from this?

Can you show the bolder part, specifically expressed in Scripture? I don’t agree with defining Baptism in this manner.

I agree with the Church, and with you when you agree with the Church.

I believe the Bible teaches only ONE baptism saves: that is the baptism by the Holy Spirit:
if the Nicene Creed authors believed that they are correct.

As we are commanded to baptize others: it is impossible to be be baptized in private :
(speaking of which : have you ever baptized anyone?)

Romans 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

and also:

Jesus has NEVER potentially saved anyone:There is no cooperation
He effectually save or He does not save.

He effectually saves without our cooperation: completely saves, fully saves, sufficiently saves , eternally saves.
100% Jesus, 0% me: to Him ALL honor , glory and praise! Amen.

all of these doctrines (soteriology , sovereignty) are related.

 

[rcwitness]

I believes the Bible teach only ONE baptism save: that is the baptism by the Holy Spirit:
if the Nicene Creed authors believed that they are correct.

I’d stick to what Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved.”
The creed states what Baptism accomplishes: “Forgiveness of sins”

As we are commanded to baptize others: it is impossible to be be baptized in private :
(speaking of which : have you ever baptized anyone?)

I have not. And yes, no one is Baptized alone. I just don’t think this aspect of Baptism is its primary function or how we should define it. The Church explains that Baptism (with Water and Word) incorporates one into the body through forgiveness of sins accomplished by Christ. The primary function is forgiveness of sins that binds one to death. Forgiveness of sins frees one to pursue life everlasting. This Baptismal forgiveness is merited by what Jesus did at Calvary.

Romans 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Yes. Please explain how this reference to Baptism is apart from the Sacrament.

 

[alwayswill]

I’d stick to what Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved.”
,.

but do believe this
Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved.
or this
Whoever believes and is Baptized maybe will be saved.

Believes and is baptized and “what else” to be saved?
Seriously; what else is required?

 

[rcwitness]

but do believe this
Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved.
or this
Whoever believes and is Baptized maybe will be saved.

Believes and is baptized and what else to be saved?
Seriously; what else is required?

Whoever believes, follows.
Whoever is Baptized, is forgiven.
We don’t believe Baptism trumps disbelief, in regard to salvation and final justification. We do not profess a Sacrament Alone doctrine. I think I will start a thread related to a “Sacrament Alone” concept.

 

[alwayswill]

Whoever believes, follows.
Whoever is Baptized, is forgiven.
We don’t believe Baptism trumps disbelief, in regard to salvation and final justification. We do not profess a Sacrament Alone doctrine. I think I will start a thread related to a “Sacrament Alone” concept.

is it your view that without baptism there is no forgiveness of sins?

Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;”
Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;”
Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

 

[rcwitness]

is it your view that without baptism there is no forgiveness of sins?

Can you clarify this question? Do you mean, if someone refuses to receive the Sacrament? Or do you mean if Baptism didn’t exist?

 

[alwayswill]

Can you clarify this question? Do you mean, if someone refuses to receive the Sacrament? Or do you mean if Baptism didn’t exist?

Baptism does exist , but the believer never got around to it

 

[rcwitness]

Baptism does exist , but the believer never got around to it

Why did he never get around to it?

 

[alwayswill]

Why did he never get around to it?

i already know about Baptism of desire:

I briefly brought this up before:

The doctrine of baptist directly flows out of other doctrines
The other doctrines are the foundations on which the the doctrine of baptism stands.

we can discuss baptism all day long;
but if we disagree on the nature of God, the nature of man , Christ, the Cross, the Atonement, and how that all ties into salvation it will be impossible to ever see eye to eye on baptism…

I guarantee : if we agreed on those other doctrines we would agree on baptism.

 

[rcwitness]

i already know about Baptism of desire:

I briefly brought his up before:

The doctrine of baptist directly flows out of other doctrines
The other doctrines are the foundations on which the the doctrine of baptism stands.

we can discuss baptism all day long;
but if we disagree on the nature of God, the nature of man , Christ, the Cross, the Atonement, and how that all ties into salvation it will be impossible to ever see eye to eye on baptism…

I guarantee : if we agreed on those other doctrines we would agree on baptism.

If you disagree with the Church, Tradition, Scripture, and the Nicene Creed, you disagree with God. But I know that you have lots of common belief, so I’m not saying that as though you dont. Rather, I’m saying that they all have harmony, if properly understood. If we harmonize them, we will have proper understanding.

Your interpretation of this aspect of the Creed (that there are two separate Baptisms) is not supported by Tradition or Scripture.

 

[alwayswill]

If you disagree with the Church, Tradition, Scripture, and the Nicene Creed, you disagree with God. But I know that you have lots of common belief, so I’m not saying that as though you dont. Rather, I’m saying that they all have harmony, if properly understood. If we harmonize them, we will have proper understanding.

Your interpretation of this aspect of the Creed (that there are two separate Baptisms) is not supported by Tradition or Scripture.

yea it is: one is a symbolic representation of a spiritual reality.
The reality saves: the symbol never will.

Baptism by the Holy Spirit ALWAYS saves regardless of whether or not a water baptism has ever taken place

 

[rcwitness]

yea it is: one is a symbolic representation of a spiritual reality.
The reality saves: the symbol never will.

Again, Jesus said, “Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved”

In order for you to interpret the way you do, you have to make this statement to have nothing to do with water Baptism. But we only receive one Baptism, and it is for the forgiveness of sins. The Creed states this. I’m not convinced you agree.

 

[Peter_J]

yep:

Because there are two types of baptism in the New Testament: water baptism and spiritual baptism (regeneration).

I think you’ve misunderstood the NT. For example, in Acts 19

“1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men.”

There are, like you said, two baptisms mentioned; but I don’t see that only John’s baptism was with water.