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rcwitness
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John’s Baptism was not the New Testament Baptism, but a preparation for it. John was the last of the Old Testament prophets.
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alwayswill
Guest
Salvation is by Faith alone not faith and anything else
Grace is 100% by God and from God: man 's cooperation is irrelevant.
When man is filled with the Holy Spirit (aka regenerated, born again , baptized by the Spirit) that is when they are saved. for ever
Baptism by immersion is a command to believers.
Refusal to obey a direct command from the King is reason to suspect that person is truly a subject of the King
regrading the verse:
Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the** Negative Inference Fallacy. **This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement “a dog with brown spots is an animal” is true; however, the negative, “if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal” is false. In the same way, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” is true; however, the statement “he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved” is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.
Consider this example: “Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned.” This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption.
The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven.
Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized.
The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized.
There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.
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Peter_J
Guest
IDK.
In any case, I want to clarify that I’m not opposed to the “Catholic”/“catholic” distinction, but it’s possible to get carried away with it.
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rcwitness
Guest
I think it’s more accurate to understand Jesus’ comment as if one believes, they will seek Baptism, which forgives sins.
It makes more sense, in light of the rest of Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching.
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments”
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Peter_J
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I’d like to pig back on RCW’s comment, because Protestant obviously disagree with the Catholic Church, and yet I very often hear them calling it “his church” and “the church” and the like.
As a non-Orthodox I can’t imagine saying “Orthodoxy is the church, but I disagree with it.”
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alwayswill
Guest
in the context as ekklesia is used in the NT:I’d like to pig back on RCW’s comment, because Protestant obviously disagree with the Catholic Church, and yet I very often hear them calling it “his church” and “the church” and the like.
As a non-Orthodox I can’t imagine saying “Orthodoxy is the church, but I disagree with it.”
Are there any believers that are not part of the ekklesia?
in the context as ekklesia is used in the NT:
are there any unbelievers included in the ekklesia?
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alwayswill
Guest
it is inconceivable that a true believer’s ( indwelt by the HS) sins are not already forgiven prior to baptism
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rcwitness
Guest
What does the parable of the weeds among the wheat mean to you? I think the Church contains those who believe and keep His commandments, and others who do not believe and keep His commandments.
Was Judah not allotted his share in the ministry and fellowship of the 12?
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rcwitness
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Everyone’s sins are forgiven prior to them even hearing the Gospel. What is inconceivable, is for a true believer to deny Baptism (unless they are taught inaccurate doctrines, or prevented in other ways from receiving).
Repenting and receiving forgiveness is a different aspect from when and how we are able to be forgiven. That is Jesus’ work and obedience. The grace of God.
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Wannano
Guest
Hi Rc, I have been enjoying this dialogue. I think you both have presented your understandings as plain as can be. Considering how much is centered around water baptism in the Catholic Church ie baptism is for the forgiveness of sins…baptism saves you etc a thought occurs to me…wouldn’t it have been appropriate to name and identify the early church as the First Baptist Church?
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rcwitness
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If you don’t know why I said this, it’s because it’s how I feel some speak. There are aspects of things within each person’s perspective that has truth. Like this statement, for example. I can say this, and there is an aspect to it that is true. But there is also an aspect that is not true.
That’s what Christian do. We want to use our “language” and perspective of how we have been convinced that Jesus saves, and we don’t understand each other’s language.
That’s why I try to use the Church’s language. She has the “universal language” to communicate with. Baptism is a commandment from Jesus. It is a commandment for those who are initiated into the Church. The very symbol of Baptism is “washing away sin”.
The name of God is called upon at Baptism. This brings the Word over the water and blesses the recipient with forgiveness of sin, NOT for a removal of dirt from the body, but a desire to have a clear conscience.
The Word is the Son of the Father, who moves by the Spirit and also sends the Spirit. To believe this, is the faith of the Church. To Baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, means God is present along with His promise. It is no longer simply water, but a Sacrament.
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twf
Guest
I think many contemporary Protestants talk a good talk of a simplistic “its just a relationship with God, not a religion” but when you actually dissect and analyze what their particular congregation / tradition believes, you find that it contains layers of precisely defined dogma / doctrine interpreted within its own living sacred tradition - even if they don’t use those terms.
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twf
Guest
In my experience, most Baptists wouldn’t give the creed a second thought. There’s very little consciousness of historical continuity with the early Church (post-Acts anyway).
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rcwitness
Guest
Hi Rc, I have been enjoying this dialogue. I think you both have presented your understandings as plain as can be. Considering how much is centered around water baptism in the Catholic Church ie baptism is for the forgiveness of sins…baptism saves you etc a thought occurs to me…wouldn’t it have been appropriate to name and identify the early church as the First Baptist Church?
… or the First and Last Baptist Church. But I do want to start a thread about a Sacrament Alone concept.Actually, I think the best name is The Church of God, which I do like to use.
I know there is a denomination named this. I loved an article from them about “Porneia and the Meaning of Divorce”. I used it is a thread.
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alwayswill
Guest
the parable of the weeds among the wheat is not about the ekklesia : is it?
ekkleis as used in the NT has a meaning:
Judas was not part of the ekklesia
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twf
Guest
Yet that’s exactly what Scripture says.
Actions 22:16:
And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
Acts 2:38
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There are others. Yes we are saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit flowing from the salvific work of Christ on the Cross…but God chooses to save us through baptism when we “put on Christ” (Gal. 3:27). Baptism, like all the sacraments, flows from the Incarnation. The eternal, immaterial God entered into the material creation and became flesh. The Church, the mystical body of Christ, is the extension of the incarnation…Christ continues to come to us through matter sanctified in His name. In this case water.
Of course God can and does forgive sins prior to baptism. He is not bound by His sacraments. But Scripture is clear that baptism is the normative means of being cleansed of sin.
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rcwitness
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Judas Partook of the Last Supper! How can you say that?
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alwayswill
Guest
" What is inconceivable, is for a true believer to deny Baptism (unless they are taught inaccurate doctrines, or prevented in other ways from receiving). "
agreed : True believers do not willfully disobey their King:
(that doesn’t mean sins are forgiven at baptism)
that is why I
."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded "
and you?
Have you ever gone and made disciples?
have you ever baptized anyone?
have you ever taught new believers to obey the commands of Christ?
I have
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alwayswill
Guest
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alwayswill
Guest
because Judas was not part of the ekklesia
newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
In the writings of the New Testament the words are sharply distinguished. With them ecclesia denotes the Church of Christ; synagoga, the Jews still adhering to the worship of the Old Covenant.
As signifying the Church, the word Ecclesia is used by Christian writers, sometimes in a wider, sometimes in a more restricted sense.
Code:
It is employed to denote **all who, **from the beginning of the world, **have believed in the one true God**, and have been made His children by grace. In this sense, it is sometimes distinguished, signifying the Church before the Old Covenant, the Church of the Old Covenant, or the Church of the New Covenant. Thus St. Gregory (Book V, Epistle 18) writes: "Sancti ante legem, sancti sub lege, sancti sub gratiâ, omnes hi . . . in membris Ecclesiæ sunt constituti" (The saints before the Law, the saints under the Law, and the saints under grace — all these are constituted members of the Church).
It may signify **the whole body of the faithful,** including not merely the members of the Church who are alive on earth but those, too, whether in heaven or in purgatory, who form part of the one communion of saints. Considered thus, the Church is divided into the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant.This truth, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ,** all its members being guided and directed by Christ the head**, is set forth by St. Paul in various passages, more especially in Ephesians 4:4-13 (cf. John 15:5-8).
I can find dozens of websites that say basically the same thing:
feel free to double check
“what is the ekkleisa?”
or “what does ekklesia mean?”
so now with the correct understanding of ekklesia I ask again:
in the context the of how ekklesia is used in the NT:
Are there any believers that are not part of the ekklesia?
in the context of how ekklesia is used in the NT:
are there any unbelievers included in the ekklesia?
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