Evangelicals and veneration

[Izdaari]

I’m not advocating going full fledged pacifism. Only I think recovering a message of peace would be good. So much of the evangelical community in America seems to be way too supportive for any kind of military action.

Agreed.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I said they aligned with the religious right. It’s a generalization, but not entirely baseless. You are right, the AG doesn’t take positions on political issues. But most of its members would lean socially conservative.

PS: And for the record, I don’t go to an AG church nor have I ever been affiliated with one. What I know about it I know from researching Pentecostal history in general and AG history in particular. I could be totally wrong, if so let me know.

I’m not sure I agree. Certainly they are aligned with religious issues in terms of abortion and gay marriage and issues like those, but in terms of other issues like illegal immigration, they’ve taken an officially leftist approach.

 

[ltwin]

Also true, but I think that’s a good thing, at least up to a point. My AG pastors are fans of Rob Bell and Donald Miller. I’m ok with that, so am I.

But some of those folks, most notably the Emergent Village crowd, are far too theologically and politically liberal for my comfort.

Just a side observation. As you say, if we want to discuss that much, it probably should have its own thread.

Have you read Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins”. I haven’t but I’ve everywhere everyone says he denies the existence of hell as an eternal torment for those who reject Christ. That’s a little too theologically liberal for me.

But this probably should have its own thread.

 

[ltwin]

I’m not sure I agree. Certainly they are aligned with religious issues in terms of abortion and gay marriage and issues like those, but in terms of other issues like illegal immigration, they’ve taken an officially leftist approach.

Yeah I would too if I had statistics like the AG. Their Hispanic growth is off the charts. Not that I’m saying that’s the only reason they took that position.

But notice the reaction the leadership took. After a lot of people found out, the AG superintendent had to release a statement and a video defending the actions of the denomination because it was like so controversial.

But that said, I think the AG did a brave thing though.

 

[Izdaari]

Have you read Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins”. I haven’t but I’ve everywhere everyone says he denies the existence of hell as an eternal torment for those who reject Christ. That’s a little too theologically liberal for me.

But this probably should have its own thread.

Not yet, but I’ll get to it. Bell says he doesn’t deny it, but maybe he’s waffling. I’ll have to read it for myself. But even if Bell is wrong on that, it doesn’t mean he’s wrong on everything else.

My own views on hell are probably more in the line with the Orthodox Church than with anybody else, so as Protestants go, I guess I’m a maverick. (I might even consider converting to Orthodox… if only they weren’t so darn conservative and traditional. )

 

[ltwin]

Not yet, but I’ll get to it. Bell says he doesn’t deny it, but maybe he’s waffling. I’ll have to read it for myself. But even if Bell is wrong on that, it doesn’t mean he’s wrong on everything else.

My own views on hell are probably more in the line with the Orthodox Church than with anybody else, so as Protestants go, I guess I’m a maverick. (I might even consider converting to Orthodox… if only they weren’t so darn conservative and traditional. )

What about Pentecostal distinctives? I’m guessing your church is the holler roller type anyway, but Orthodox and Pentecostals are worlds away. Though they do seem to have that mystical thing going on that I guess a Pentecostal could be drawn to.

 

[Izdaari]

Yeah I would too if I had statistics like the AG. Their Hispanic growth is off the charts. Not that I’m saying that’s the only reason they took that position.

But notice the reaction the leadership took. After a lot of people found out, the AG superintendent had to release a statement and a video defending the actions of the denomination because it was like so controversial.

But that said, I think the AG did a brave thing though.

I’m watching that video now. I have to say, I think I do agree with that resolution. And I think most Catholics would too.

 

[Publisher]

What about Pentecostal distinctives? I’m guessing your church is the **holler roller type **anyway, but Orthodox and Pentecostals are worlds away. Though they do seem to have that mystical thing going on that I guess a Pentecostal could be drawn to.

I would think one would not use such a term…in many Pentacostal circles…“holy roller” is a derogatory term those on the “outside” use toward those who’s worship style is different from their own…

Just an observation.

 

[ltwin]

I would think one would not use such a term…in many Pentacostal circles…“holy roller” is a derogatory term those on the “outside” use toward those who’s worship style is different from their own…

Just an observation.

Yeah and “Methodist” was originally a derogatory term. Pentecostals who are holy rollers (my church has a lot of them) aren’t offended at being called that (at least by other Pentecostals). They aren’t ashamed at how they worship Christ.

There are Pentecostals who never have rolled on the floor or similarly worshiped God. And they shouldn’t be labeled holy rollers. However, the term is a good one for a succinct term to describe a particular style of being Pentecostal.

For the record, I have rolled on the floor in a Pentecostal service before. So I think I can use it without meaning to offend.

 

[Izdaari]

What about Pentecostal distinctives? I’m guessing your church is the holler roller type anyway, but Orthodox and Pentecostals are worlds away. Though they do seem to have that mystical thing going on that I guess a Pentecostal could be drawn to.

No, my church is not the “holy-roller” type. If you walked in, there’s nothing to make it obvious that it’s Pentecostal or charismatic. For the first few weeks I attended, I didn’t know it was AG. I thought maybe it was seeker-friendly, charismatic-friendly, non-denominational, until finally I found some AG magazines in a back corner.

People do speak in tongues, but most of them do it at home as a private prayer language. I’ve been a member for a few years, but I had no previous Pentecostal background. I checked it out because I was looking for a good church in my neighborhood, and though this one wasn’t on my list, I walked by and it was like God tapped me on the shoulder and said “Hey, try this one.” And so I did, and it’s worked out well.

I do have some Baptist background (I first became a Christian in Baptist Sunday School at age 12), and there’s not a great deal of difference between Baptist and AG in terms of distinctives, other than cessationism vs. continuationism. I do agree with the continuationist PoV.

My particular Izdaarian form of Christianity is probably more influenced by C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright than anybody else, and I consider myself more a “mere Christian” (to use Lewis’ phrase) than of any particular denomination, though because of their influence, I do think of myself as a perpetual honorary Anglican.

I probably won’t be leaving the Protestant stream anytime soon, and I am quite attached to my present AG church. But if I did… Orthodoxy is the most likely candidate, as they have most of what I agree with in Catholicism, without the major problems I have with it.

P.S.: Just finished listening to Dr. Woods (the AG superintendent) speak on that video re the immigration issue. I hadn’t heard him speak before. Not only do I agree with him on the issue, but I’m impressed with him. He’s a good speaker, likeable and well-organized.

 

[Publisher]

Yeah and “Methodist” was originally a derogatory term. Pentecostals who are holy rollers (my church has a lot of them) aren’t offended at being called that. They aren’t ashamed at how they worship Christ.

There are Pentecostals who never have rolled on the floor or similarly worshiped God. And they shouldn’t be labeled holy rollers. However, the term is a good one for a succinct term to describe a particular style of being Pentecostal.

For the record, I have rolled on the floor in a Pentecostal service before. So I think I can use it without meaning to offend.

LOL…I stand corrected…my aunt was Pentacostal…she did not like the term in the least.

“Quaker” was originally meant as a derogatory term as well…didn’t know “holy roller” has now been accepted as a “badge of honor” as “Methodist” and “Quaker” has…“Mormon” too was a derogatory term originally…but also embrace and dignified.

 

[ltwin]

LOL…I stand corrected…my aunt was Pentacostal…she did not like the term in the least.

“Quaker” was originally meant as a derogatory term as well…didn’t know “holy roller” has now been accepted as a “badge of honor” as “Methodist” and “Quaker” has…“Mormon” too was a derogatory term originally…but also embrace and dignified.

I’m sure there are Pentecostals who do get offended by the term don’t get me wrong. But there are Pentecostals who adopt it as a badge of honor. In an age where so many Pentecostal churches have gone the vanilla non-denom evangelical community church route, those who wish for the good ole days of campmeetings and uneducated preachers who roused crowds with excited sermons and allowed people to roll on the floor if they felt that God wanted them to or walk on top of the pews if they just couldn’t help themselves kind of say hey being called a holy roller aint so bad. Its a lot better than simply being like every other Baptist and Methodist church in town.

 

[ltwin]

People do speak in tongues, but most of them do it at home as a private prayer language.

Yeah our churches are on opposite ends of the Pentecostal spectrum. You’d here a lot of tongues speaking in my church here and there. And my praise leader likes to allow spontaneous worship so there is a lot of singing in the spirit and prophetic singing.

Every now and again we get a message in tongues.

P.S.: Just finished listening to Dr. Woods (the AG superintendent) speak on that video re the immigration issue. I hadn’t heard him speak before. Not only do I agree with him on the issue, but I’m impressed with him. He’s a good speaker, likeable and well-organized.

He is a very intelligent man, but also believes in maintaining Pentecostal distinctives such as baptism in the Spirit. And I think he has a heart for empowering the next generation of Pentecostals. He is also not a believer in the prosperity and health and wealth gospels which seem to dominate the perception of Pentecostals these days.

 

[Izdaari]

I’m sure there are Pentecostals who do get offended by the term don’t get me wrong. But there are Pentecostals who adopt it as a badge of honor. In an age where so many Pentecostal churches have gone the vanilla non-denom evangelical community church route, those who wish for the good ole days of campmeetings and uneducated preachers who roused crowds with excited sermons and allowed people to roll on the floor if they felt that God wanted them to or walk on top of the pews if they just couldn’t help themselves kind of say hey being called a holy roller aint so bad. Its a lot better than simply being like every other Baptist and Methodist church in town.

Yeah, the “non-denominational evangelical community church” model is the one my AG church has adopted, and it’s the only Pentecostal church I’ve ever known. I know about the other kinds (sometimes see them on TV), but have no personal experience with them and probably would be very uncomfortable in them. However, people are free to worship as expressively as they want in our church (within reasonable limits), and no one will give them any grief about it, and I like that.

 

[ltwin]

Well the TV Pentecostals are usually advocates of prosperity and health and wealth gospels. I don’t agree with them and resent that a lot of people assume that all Pentecostals believe like that.

 

[Izdaari]

Well the TV Pentecostals are usually advocates of prosperity and health and wealth gospels. I don’t agree with them and resent that a lot of people assume that all Pentecostals believe like that.

True, most Pentecostals on TV are Word of Faith people. Though I like some of them anyway (such as Joseph Prince, who is really cute p) and emphasizes grace more than WoF stuff), I don’t agree with that doctrine and consider it at least borderline heretical (and in some extreme cases, over the top heretical.).

 

[ltwin]

Yeah you have to separate what is more flaky from what is more solid teaching. For example, Hillsong. I love their music, but they focus too much on prosperity and consumerism. But their music is touching a lot of lives. At Forward Conference this summer (its done by Jenetzen Franklin and is awesome) Christine Caine from Hillsong was there. She preaches powerfully and is doing a lot of good fighting the sex traffick.

Another example is my home church. Its heavily influenced by WOF teaching. But its got the most vibrant and free worship in my area. I do what I can to contribute to sanity where I feel the teaching is off based lol.

 

[Izdaari]

Yeah you have to separate what is more flaky from what is more solid teaching. For example, Hillsong. I love their music, but they focus too much on prosperity and consumerism. But their music is touching a lot of lives.

I like Brian Houston most of the time, and I like Hillsong’s music, though I think a lot of it is too over-orchestrated in a Lawrence Welk kind of way, and not enough rock. (But I would think so: my taste runs to hard rock, heavy metal and punk.)

 

[ltwin]

I like Brian Houston most of the time, and I like Hillsong’s music, though I think a lot of it is too over-orchestrated in a Lawrence Welk kind of way, and not enough rock. (But I would think so: my taste runs to hard rock, heavy metal and punk.)

Yeah my taste is more into worship. I think maybe the heaviest Christian music I listen to maybe Skillett lol. I’ve been getting into more of the spontaneous type lately. IHOP (International House of Prayer) is doing some creative things when it comes to worship music.

 

[Izdaari]

Yeah my taste is more into worship. I think maybe the heaviest Christian music I listen to maybe Skillett lol. I’ve been getting into more of the spontaneous type lately. IHOP (International House of Prayer) is doing some creative things when it comes to worship music.

Good stuff!

I’ve been listening lately to Demon Hunter (Christian metal), LeCrae and Shai Linne (Christian rap).

So far as more normal Christian bands, the kind that get played on Christian radio, I’m fond of Casting Crowns, Tenth Avenue North and Brandon Heath. And I like Bob Dylan’s three Christian albums.