Evangelicals and veneration

  • Thread starter Thread starter FabiusMaximus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Good stuff! šŸ‘

I’ve been listening lately to Demon Hunter (Christian metal), LeCrae and Shai Linne (Christian rap).

So far as more normal Christian bands, I’m fond of Casting Crowns, Tenth Avenue North and Brandon Heath. And I like Bob Dylan’s three Christian albums.
The first 3 are good. Never listened to those by Dylan. LOL this thread has gotten so off topic šŸ˜‰
 
Yeah I would too if I had statistics like the AG. Their Hispanic growth is off the charts. Not that I’m saying that’s the only reason they took that position.

But notice the reaction the leadership took. After a lot of people found out, the AG superintendent had to release a statement and a video defending the actions of the denomination because it was like so controversial.

But that said, I think the AG did a brave thing though.
Frankly I think it’s stupid. They’re selling out to their Hispanic congregants. I don’t see it as brave at all. I’m very disappointed with the AG position.

But then again the Catholic Church in America has done that long ago, too.
 
Frankly I think it’s stupid. They’re selling out to their Hispanic congregants. I don’t see it as brave at all. I’m very disappointed with the AG position.

But then again the Catholic Church in America has done that long ago, too.
It isn’t just an AG position. It’s a NAE position that the AG endorsed. And IMHO the position would be correct whether the AG had any Hispanic congregants or not.

christianpost.com/news/nae-takes-strong-pro-immigration-reform-stance-41313/

And btw, is there an official Catholic position on this, and if so what is it?
 
It isn’t just an AG position. It’s a NAE position that the AG endorsed. And IMHO the position would be correct whether the AG had any Hispanic congregants or not.

christianpost.com/news/nae-takes-strong-pro-immigration-reform-stance-41313/

And btw, is there an official Catholic position on this, and if so what is it?
I don’t know if the Catholic Church has endorsed officially a position, but when I read Italian news sources, both the Pope and the* Conferenza Episcopale Italiana* (Italian Bishops’ Conference) comes out strongly in favor of taking in illegal immigrants and legalizing them. I am vehemently opposed to this. And I strongly oppose the AG position. I don’t think the Church should be attempting to sway opinions on this matter.
 
I think its natural for churches to take positions similar to this. At least George O. Wood cited scripture for his defense of the NAE’s position. If this were the Episcopal Church you’d here a lot of liberal ā€œwe are the worldā€ ****. The AG and members of the NAE are trying to live out the Christian responsibility to be kind to the stranger. Remember, God stands up for the stranger. Immigration, even illegal immigration, is a lot more complicated than ā€œIt’s illegal and these people are breaking the law.ā€ Many of these people are running for their lives from states and regions of the world that are hopeless. The Christian world, especially those Christians who have the resources to help, have a responsibility to thoughtfully and charitably consider their plight.

Another thing that I can’t stand is the silence by so many who decry illegal immigration yet never decry the treatment of those illegal immigrants or people who suspected of illegal immigrants. These people are treated horribly and taken advantage of in such an inhumane fashion. I’m in favor of border security, but the fact is the illegal immigrants that are here now are here to stay. It’s not possible to deport them all. They are here and they will stay here. What we have to do now is ensure that they are treated fairly and humanely.
 
I think its natural for churches to take positions similar to this. At least George O. Wood cited scripture for his defense of the NAE’s position. If this were the Episcopal Church you’d here a lot of liberal ā€œwe are the worldā€ ****. The AG and members of the NAE are trying to live out the Christian responsibility to be kind to the stranger. Remember, God stands up for the stranger. Immigration, even illegal immigration, is a lot more complicated than ā€œIt’s illegal and these people are breaking the law.ā€ Many of these people are running for their lives from states and regions of the world that are hopeless. The Christian world, especially those Christians who have the resources to help, have a responsibility to thoughtfully and charitably consider their plight.

Another thing that I can’t stand is the silence by so many who decry illegal immigration yet never decry the treatment of those illegal immigrants or people who suspected of illegal immigrants. These people are treated horribly and taken advantage of in such an inhumane fashion. I’m in favor of border security, but the fact is the illegal immigrants that are here now are here to stay. It’s not possible to deport them all. They are here and they will stay here. What we have to do now is ensure that they are treated fairly and humanely.
Are you implying that God endorses illegal immigration?

Listen, I’m sympathetic to the plight of the people in the third world. But it is not our responsibility to take them in by the millions, which we have been doing. They are only damaging our economy and dragging Americans into poverty, and is doing nothing - absolutely nothing - to solve the crises engulfing these nations. How many do you take? One million? Two million? Millions? How far do we have to go before we have ā€œenoughā€ out of ā€œChristian love and charityā€?

The Christian Church has existed for centuries, it never once said that we are obligated to invite millions of foreigners into our countries. That we have an obligation to a stranger yes, but stranger means person on the street, it’s not talking about the hapless person in China. There are plenty of ways to help these people, but the only proper way it can be done is in their own countries. We can only help them there. We cannot bring the problems to us, because we will only exacerbate problems we already have.

The Bible, if you recall, also tells us explicitly to take care of our own and our family as a priority. Is this not also important?

With regards to illegal immigration - I’m sorry, but the issue really is that simple - you come in illegally, you are a criminal. Ilegal immigration refers specifically to people who come to our countries as a form of economic opportunity - it does NOT refer to people escaping warfare or other forms of political crises.

And yes, it is possible to both A) deport them all and B) secure the border. It’s not the first time we have an illegal immigration problem. Properly enforcing our current illegal immigration laws, punishing places that hire them - does a long way in forcing them home. They self-deport. And we won’t even have to pay a dime.

Sorry, I don’t buy that it is our Christian duty to destroy our countries via mass immigration.
 
Is the Italian Assemblies of God pretty representative of other other Pentecostal churches in Italy?

Your observations concerning evangelicals in America is pretty right on as far as my experience goes. Most American Pentecostals wouldn’t see anything wrong with wearing a crucifix around their neck. Veneration is another thing altogether however. I haven’t really seen any Pentecostal cross themselves. If someone did it in my church it would probably be seen as strange but a child wouldn’t be scolded by his parents for doing it…
My experience in the US would tend to agree. I also see this in terms of mainline Protestants. For a while, I passed by a United Methodist church on foot on the way to work and they had an Icon on display outside (I can’t remember - it may have been in a display case). The sign of the cross is another thing - some Protestants will do it when they are feeling old-fashioned or uber-ritualistic. It’s respected as an old practice that has been practiced by some believers, and it isn’t inherently opposed to Protestant doctrine.
 
Frankly I think it’s stupid. They’re selling out to their Hispanic congregants. I don’t see it as brave at all. I’m very disappointed with the AG position.

But then again the Catholic Church in America has done that long ago, too.
I agree.

I seen talk about tv pentecostal pastors. I like Bayless Conley myself šŸ™‚
 
Are you implying that God endorses illegal immigration?

Listen, I’m sympathetic to the plight of the people in the third world. But it is not our responsibility to take them in by the millions, which we have been doing. They are only damaging our economy and dragging Americans into poverty, and is doing nothing - absolutely nothing - to solve the crises engulfing these nations. How many do you take? One million? Two million? Millions? How far do we have to go before we have ā€œenoughā€ out of ā€œChristian love and charityā€?

The Christian Church has existed for centuries, it never once said that we are obligated to invite millions of foreigners into our countries. That we have an obligation to a stranger yes, but stranger means person on the street, it’s not talking about the hapless person in China. There are plenty of ways to help these people, but the only proper way it can be done is in their own countries. We can only help them there. We cannot bring the problems to us, because we will only exacerbate problems we already have.

The Bible, if you recall, also tells us explicitly to take care of our own and our family as a priority. Is this not also important?

With regards to illegal immigration - I’m sorry, but the issue really is that simple - you come in illegally, you are a criminal. Ilegal immigration refers specifically to people who come to our countries as a form of economic opportunity - it does NOT refer to people escaping warfare or other forms of political crises.

And yes, it is possible to both A) deport them all and B) secure the border. It’s not the first time we have an illegal immigration problem. Properly enforcing our current illegal immigration laws, punishing places that hire them - does a long way in forcing them home. They self-deport. And we won’t even have to pay a dime.

Sorry, I don’t buy that it is our Christian duty to destroy our countries via mass immigration.
Have you read the NAE statement? Where does it say open the gates at let the hordes flood in? It simply says that for those people that are already here and not going anywhere that there should be some path to legalization for them. It also says there should border security and the government should do more to ensure that immigration policy is followed. What other sensible approach is there?

And I’m sorry. It’s not as simple as you make it out to be. If I was a father or mother in Mexico, I’d want to get my children to America too. Whether I had to break the law or not. I think people in America and other developed countries can take for granted just how good we have it.

You can make a valid point that America cannot afford to sustain massive amounts of foreign immigration. That is the truth. But at the same time, you cannot blame people who are willing to break our laws to give themselves and their children the chance to live even a minimal portion of the American dream. Yes, legally they have broken our laws and as a matter of fact they should receive punishment according to our laws. But that being said I cannot deny that if I was in their situation, I probably would do the exact same thing.
 
And yes, it is possible to both A) deport them all
No it is not possible to deport 11.2 million illegal aliens.
and B) secure the border.
We are agreed. It is possible to secure the border. Myself, the NAE, and the Assemblies of God USA have never said it wasn’t.
It’s not the first time we have an illegal immigration problem. Properly enforcing our current illegal immigration laws, punishing places that hire them - does a long way in forcing them home. They self-deport. And we won’t even have to pay a dime.
I don’t question the need for punishing employers. They should be punished. Whether that will make all of them leave is another story. Certainly the bad economy has allowed immigration to level off some. But when the economy picks up (unless real border security is put in place) its a given that the numbers will pick up again.
 
Have you read the NAE statement? Where does it say open the gates at let the hordes flood in? It simply says that for those people that are already here and not going anywhere that there should be some path to legalization for them. It also says there should border security and the government should do more to ensure that immigration policy is followed. What other sensible approach is there?
The NAE statement is a de facto green light for open borders. Of course they’ll never officially state that we should allow illegals in unrestrained (it is, after all, still in the federal statutes), but that is the effect of the position they’ve taken. And it’s unacceptable.
And I’m sorry. It’s not as simple as you make it out to be. If I was a father or mother in Mexico, I’d want to get my children to America too. Whether I had to break the law or not. I think people in America and other developed countries can take for granted just how good we have it.
So the rest of us who decide to try our luck with the legal immigration authorities are apparently a bunch of schmucks because we tried to do it legally? I guess next time I’ll tell my dad to try his luck illegally, as a criminal. Clearly it’s more worth it than giong through the process.
You can make a valid point that America cannot afford to sustain massive amounts of foreign immigration. That is the truth. But at the same time, you cannot blame people who are willing to break our laws to give themselves and their children the chance to live even a minimal portion of the American dream. Yes, legally they have broken our laws and as a matter of fact they should receive punishment according to our laws. But that being said I cannot deny that if I was in their situation, I probably would do the exact same thing.
Well the legal punishment for their crime is deportation. But you say you don’t want them deported. We can’t assume both points at the same time.

Yes, it is very sad for families to suffer the world over. Very much so. But allowing them to break our laws and stream in illegally is dangerous. Dangerous because we don’t have any idea of who comes in. Often times they are criminals. They could be terrorists. They could have disease - and indeed, because of illegal immigration we’ve seen a resurgence of diseases that have been long defeated in the West. We’re inviting in a mass underclass of people, who breed several children at a time, who also end up being poor and destitute. And of course, who pays? The American people.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe that a country that can fend off foreign invaders, go to the Moon, build a sophisticated computer network - cannot do something as simple as protect the border. I simply don’t believe it. Because it’s not true.

If immigration laws are rigorously enforced, and employers get their proper sanctions - illegals will begin to self-deport. We’ve seen this in Georgia arleady with their new illegal law. We’ve seen it occur in Arizona. Proper enforcement leads to results. And it’s not like these states approved anything extraordinary - merely they reaffirmed existing federal law. And proper federal oversight will help find the rest.

Once we squeeze them out of welfare benefits, in-state tuition, jobs - most will go home on their own, and most of the rest will be put into a box until we can find them and send them home. We can do this. It can be a gradual process over several years - but it can be done. Any other solution is simply unacceptable - it will show that our laws don’t mean anything, it will tell people who try to come legally that their efforts aren’t worth it, and worst of all, it will invite millions more.

They tried the amnesty thing in 1986 with the ā€œgreat compromiseā€ between Republicans and Democrats - and that failed. The only thing it did was encourage several million more to come to the United States.

I’d rather spend time trying to help our own people. The millions of Americans who are falling into poverty, the families who are struggling to support their families - the drug addicts, the homeless. There are ghettos, alcoholics, serial killers, thieves, mentally unstable. And there are more than enough of these people who need support. There are plenty of regular, average, middle-class Americans who just want to get by. Our culture is being transformed into something unrecognizable, English is being displaced in certain areas, and taxes are continually squeezed onto fewer and fewer people.

I care about them. Once we get our own house in order, then we can worry about saving the world. But as Paul said,
*
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."* (1 Timothy 5:8)

I’m sorry Itwin, but I simply do not agree with you.
 
Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say I didn’t want them deported. I said (American laws notwithstanding) that I understand why they come here and why they disregard our laws.

I don’t expect someone who is desperate to think well those Americans say its illegal for me to come into their country, but there is food there and jobs and I can at least have a decent life. Hmm maybe I’ll stay over here with the cartels and the corruption, and the poverty. I really don’t feel like crossing the Rio Grande in an innertube or walking through the desert. No I stay right here. Obviously that doesn’t happen. They take huge risks to get here because they are desperate.

That’s not to say I think we have to let them come here. Our government has to protect and ensure that its citizens are not overrun by foreigners, especially in a time as economically volatile as this. But I understand and empathize with why they do break the law to come here. It’s really not as simple as ā€œthey’re just lawbreakersā€. No they are hungry, desperate, and longing for a promised land lawbreakers.

Anyway, those who try to get here are not the concern for the NAE. They are concerned about those illegal aliens already in the country. Despite what you say, they will not be deported. Not all of the millions that are here already. So the situation can continue the way it is or the government can do two things, and they must do these two things if they don’t want to have this same problem all over again. 1) secure the border. The NAE wants them to do this. 2) For those illegal aliens already here there needs to be a way for legalization. I don’t think it should be easy for them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top