S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
apophasis;2234226Saving faith being a personal trust in the One who has ALL the power to do so - completely. Anything less is not faith at all. [/quote said:
- Status
C
christcnection1
Guest
I also completely agree; however, our disagreement (or more likely misunderstanding) was over something other than this.
G
Greg27
Guest
The problem I have with OSAS is it seems to offer little incentive to progress into holiness. Generally the more sensible Reformers were aware of this (and sensible Reformed theologians will emphasize salvation is not simply once off, but requires progressive sanctification as well). In this sense I don’t see too much difference between Trent and the Reformers, though if justification is ‘boiled down’ to something where no progressive growth in the life of holiness occurs, I think such a doctrine is dangerously in error.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
The grace of God offers quite a bit of reason to continue on and to serve the Lord…I love Him because He first loved me. The grace of God at salvation and that continually grows in our deeper understanding of it should bring us to our knees in praise and spirtual sacrifice. We are saved for good works…not by good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Once elect - always elect, once saved always saved…chosen from before the foundation of the world according to HIS purpose and grace - His counsel - His will…all glory to God!
O
OneForTruth
Guest
To add to my posting above…James dealt with certain people in chapter 2 calling their faith useless, dead, and demon-like. It was a faith problem - not a “will” problem. Works with perseverance are the inevitable fruit of God-given faith.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
Please remember…perseverance is not only a condition of salvation:
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But also an evidence of salvation:
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
We are told to love…then in 1 John it says that one born of God WILL love. We are told to hate sin, then it 1 John it says that one born of God WILL hate sin. We are told to keep the commandments - then 1 John 2:3 tells us that this is an evidence of being born of God/dwelling in Him. We are told to love the brethren…then 1 John 3:14 says that, if we have passed from death to life…then we WILL love the brethren…we are told to hate the world, but then 1 John 5:13 says that those born of God WILL overcome the world.
We must and we WILL if we are born of God, if we are of the elect, if we have been truly justified…WE WILL be sanctified. God ordains the end - as well as the means.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But also an evidence of salvation:
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
We are told to love…then in 1 John it says that one born of God WILL love. We are told to hate sin, then it 1 John it says that one born of God WILL hate sin. We are told to keep the commandments - then 1 John 2:3 tells us that this is an evidence of being born of God/dwelling in Him. We are told to love the brethren…then 1 John 3:14 says that, if we have passed from death to life…then we WILL love the brethren…we are told to hate the world, but then 1 John 5:13 says that those born of God WILL overcome the world.
We must and we WILL if we are born of God, if we are of the elect, if we have been truly justified…WE WILL be sanctified. God ordains the end - as well as the means.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
Bold statements of scripture…
1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
I can say this…
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
I have assurance of my salvation through repentance and full trust in the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ…Yes, I examine myself…I am making certain of my calling and election (2 Peter 1:10)…but those chosen have this assurance and have the blessed knowledge that they were foreloved by God before the foundation of the world - predestined!
Ephesians1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
And the great chain of salvation applies!
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This drives me to service!
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
So “your” short answer to the question is… (paraphasing of course based on the verses shown out of context)
I am assured my eternal salvation because I know God’s will and the limits of his grace, and God has no say in my salvation. He is responsible for my salvation but has no judging power over me. God has to honor my salvation. I will not be judged, because God judged me before I existed? Nothing can change this guaranteed salvation that I possess by way of my own ability to believe.
It was an either/or question.
Please correct your intended response so it doesn’t sound like this.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
I guess I do not understand your response. God chose those elect to salvation before the foundation of the world - on NO BASIS of what the person would do. There is nothing in me deserving of salvation! Ofcourse He has judging power over me - but He also has justifying power…He has declared me righteous on the basis of my faith which was a gift from Him and was only by grace and not by how smart I was to choose Him. My justification is in the past…
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you **were justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Ro 6:7 for he who **has died **is freed from sin.
Ro 5:1 Therefore, **having been justified **by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ro 5:9 Much more then, **having now been **justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
I am now dead to the law…Rom 7:1-6 and sin cannot be imputed to me - Rom 4:8. There is therefore now no condemnation…no charge…no longer in my sins.
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
(NAS95)
Romans 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Justified and to be glorified…
Ro 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
I have already believed and still believe - and will continue to believe. Once blind but now see, once deaf but now hear, once dead but now alive!
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Could your understanding be wrong or is it an absolutely perfect understanding?
What if you were to fall away?
C
clmowry
Guest
So by the same token, then God must have chosen those to be damned “before the foundation of the world - on NO BASIS of what the person would do”?
Chuck
Chuck
M
mikeledes
Guest
I already answered this with the following:
You cannot be righteous without being justified and if you are justified, you are born of God.
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
This verse, OneforTruth, you have completely taken out of context.
Hebrews 10:38-39 (New American Standard Bible)
**38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. **
The subject of verse 38 is “my righteous one” (noun) and thus the “he” (pronoun) in the second half of the verse can only be referring to the subject (i.e. righteous one). This verse is basically saying that if God’s righteous one draws back, God will take no pleasure in him. But then the author of Hebrews expresses great confidence in the community he is writing to. He says that "we are not of those who shrink back to destruction. Who are the “those”? Based on verse 38, he is clearly speaking of those of the justified (i.e. righteous ones) that do shrink back. He already talked about these “righteous ones” that fail to persevere (Hebrews 10:26-31). We also know from Ezekiel 3:20-21 that there are righteous ones (i.e. justified) that shrink back to the destruction of their souls. So, in essence, the author is saying that “we are not of those *righteous ones *that shrink back to destruction.” Why does the author express such confidence in the community he’s writing to? He expresses such confidence because of their conduct. Hebrews 10:32-34 states:
32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven
Elsewhere he stated: (Hebrews 6:9-10)
**9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. **
This community has a history of joyfully enduring suffering and persecution for their faith and they have a history of good works. All of this convinces the author that they are among the justified that will not shrink back to destruction, but will persevere to the salvation of their souls. However, this confidence does not translate to absolute assurance. For the author consistently warns this community not to turn away from God. We must also keep in mind that the author in verse 39 is making a specific comment about the community he is writing to, not a general statement about the state of all of the justified.
God Bless,
Michael
O
OneForTruth
Guest
You are correct…
Romans 9:10-23 KJV 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I** will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion**. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
M
mikeledes
Guest
.
1 John 5:13
**3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? **
The person who is reborn has overcome the world because he has been delivered from the eternal debt, power, and contagion of sin. He was a slave of sin and is now a slave of righteousness. Those born of God are given the Holy Spirit and are thus empowered to live a life not dominated by the flesh, but led by the Spirit. So what is John saying here? John is saying that a Christian is able to keep the commandments of God because he/she is empowered by God to overcome the world (i.e. sin). This does not, however, mean that all of those born of God will persevere to the end, will overcome in the end. In this verse, John is expressing confidence in the ability of those empowered by the Holy Spirit to overcome the world. They can overcome the world, and many - not all - will.
If we interpret 1 John 5:13 as an absolute statement that states that all Christians will overcome, then we have problems if we apply the same extremely literal mode of interpretation on 1 John 5:18:
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
This verse clearly and plainly says that no one born of God sins. It does not says “no one born of God loves sin.” It does not say, “everyone boen of God hates sin.” It says, “no one born of God sins.” So if we take this verse at face value and interpret it literally, than a true Christian never sins. And yet we know that if that were the case, then there are very few true Christians. However, John is making a general statement about Christian conduct, what a genuinely Christian life should be. Similarly, 1 John 5:13 is a general statement about the ability of those born of God to overcome the world, an ability that those who do not believe cannot have. And yet we know from other verses in the Bible (Ezekiel 3:20-21, etc.) that there will be those who were genuinely justified, but will not persevere. I’m sure you will bring up the “golden chain” of Romans 8:30. However, Romans 8:30 gives a general overview of God’s plan of salvation and how it works in time. It says that the elect will be called, justified, and glorified. What is does* not *say is that only the elect will be called and justified. Those who are not of the elect can be called and justified, but will not be glorified.
God Bless,
Michael
O
OneForTruth
Guest
Mikeledes…
Your interpretations are very dangerous - taking 1 John 3:9 and the like passages literally is not at all possible…then, it would follow that NOBODY is born of God. I also, can say that I did not use 1 John 5:4 to mean perseverance. I used Hebrews 3:14 (since it is my favorite)…
Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
I WOULD LIKE FOR YOUR TO SHOW ME A PASSAGE THAT SHOWS THE THREE GROUPS THAT YOU CONTINUALLY REFER TO…
THE ELECT
THE NON-ELECT - JUSTIFIED
THE NON-ELECT - UNJUSTIFIED
I have showed you time and time again that elect is synonymous with “Christian”. This is crystal clear in scripture and to deny it is to deny the very Word of God.
Your use of Hebrews 10:38-39 gives us a problem…
Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 BUT ***we are not of them ***who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
I have to say that in the context of scripture…we can say that the “righteous” are not righteous in the sense the they were in fact righteous…but that they were numbered among the elect. I will argue that we can look at this term as it is looked at here…
Luke 5:31-32 KJV 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the “RIGHTEOUS”, but sinners to repentance.
You cannot take that at face value.
Luke 15:7 KJV 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Again - you cannot take this at face value…there are no such persons who become righteous without first falling on the rock of salvation - Christ - in utter repentance and complete and utter dependence.
BUT - we are those that believe to the saving of the soul. What a bold statement!!
Your Ezekiel passages can be looked at along the same vein. What you have failed to do through my entire time here on this forum is explain the passages that I bring (countless passages) to you except by wielding a handful of out-of-context passages that APPEAR to contradict the clear meaning of other scriptures. YOU CANNOT TAKE ALL SCRIPTURE AT FACE VALUE - AS YOU ARE WISHING TO DO.
In doing what you are doing…you are denying justification by faith alone and the clear teaching of predestination/election in scripture. You have also denied the fact that God ordains the means of our salvation as well as the end. The passage in Acts 27 that I have shown to you to illustrate this you have cast off to the side and made it of no use to yourself. This passage shows the soverignty of God and the responsbility of man with great clarity. WE WILL BE SAVED - HE HAS ORDAINED THAT END AS WELL AS THE MEANS OF OUR SALVATION.
Show me that “elect” and “Christian” are not synonymous! Show me that Romans 9 teaches something other than the two groups - one being ordained to condemnation and one being ordained to salvation…some from the Gentiles and some from the Jews (Rom 9:24). This is the underlying truth that you are contradicting with your handful of scriptures. BUT, I can explain your passages in light of the immediate context as well as the overall context. The question is whether or not you will listen to such explanations.
Linkowski
Your interpretations are very dangerous - taking 1 John 3:9 and the like passages literally is not at all possible…then, it would follow that NOBODY is born of God. I also, can say that I did not use 1 John 5:4 to mean perseverance. I used Hebrews 3:14 (since it is my favorite)…
Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
I WOULD LIKE FOR YOUR TO SHOW ME A PASSAGE THAT SHOWS THE THREE GROUPS THAT YOU CONTINUALLY REFER TO…
THE ELECT
THE NON-ELECT - JUSTIFIED
THE NON-ELECT - UNJUSTIFIED
I have showed you time and time again that elect is synonymous with “Christian”. This is crystal clear in scripture and to deny it is to deny the very Word of God.
Your use of Hebrews 10:38-39 gives us a problem…
Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 BUT ***we are not of them ***who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
I have to say that in the context of scripture…we can say that the “righteous” are not righteous in the sense the they were in fact righteous…but that they were numbered among the elect. I will argue that we can look at this term as it is looked at here…
Luke 5:31-32 KJV 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the “RIGHTEOUS”, but sinners to repentance.
You cannot take that at face value.
Luke 15:7 KJV 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Again - you cannot take this at face value…there are no such persons who become righteous without first falling on the rock of salvation - Christ - in utter repentance and complete and utter dependence.
BUT - we are those that believe to the saving of the soul. What a bold statement!!
Your Ezekiel passages can be looked at along the same vein. What you have failed to do through my entire time here on this forum is explain the passages that I bring (countless passages) to you except by wielding a handful of out-of-context passages that APPEAR to contradict the clear meaning of other scriptures. YOU CANNOT TAKE ALL SCRIPTURE AT FACE VALUE - AS YOU ARE WISHING TO DO.
In doing what you are doing…you are denying justification by faith alone and the clear teaching of predestination/election in scripture. You have also denied the fact that God ordains the means of our salvation as well as the end. The passage in Acts 27 that I have shown to you to illustrate this you have cast off to the side and made it of no use to yourself. This passage shows the soverignty of God and the responsbility of man with great clarity. WE WILL BE SAVED - HE HAS ORDAINED THAT END AS WELL AS THE MEANS OF OUR SALVATION.
Show me that “elect” and “Christian” are not synonymous! Show me that Romans 9 teaches something other than the two groups - one being ordained to condemnation and one being ordained to salvation…some from the Gentiles and some from the Jews (Rom 9:24). This is the underlying truth that you are contradicting with your handful of scriptures. BUT, I can explain your passages in light of the immediate context as well as the overall context. The question is whether or not you will listen to such explanations.
Linkowski
O
OneForTruth
Guest
One other point I would like to make with reference to the scripture you cited earlier…
1 John 3:9 KJV 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This is not referring to any old sin…this is referring to mortal sin as you would call it. Which, scripturally, is utter apostasy…a permanent state of unbelief after being enlightened, tasting (Heb 6), partaking, knowing…of the truth. This can be confirmed by he context of 1 John 5:16…
1 John 5:16-18 KJV 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Those that fall in to this, we can only conclude…
3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
2 John 1:9 KJV 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth (remains) not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1 John 3:6 KJV 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
A TRUE elect/believer CANNOT fall away. And I have given plenty of scripture on that.
1 John 3:9 KJV 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This is not referring to any old sin…this is referring to mortal sin as you would call it. Which, scripturally, is utter apostasy…a permanent state of unbelief after being enlightened, tasting (Heb 6), partaking, knowing…of the truth. This can be confirmed by he context of 1 John 5:16…
1 John 5:16-18 KJV 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Those that fall in to this, we can only conclude…
3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
2 John 1:9 KJV 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth (remains) not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1 John 3:6 KJV 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
A TRUE elect/believer CANNOT fall away. And I have given plenty of scripture on that.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Did you really say that “some people are ordained to condemnation” BY GOD! Very dangerous beliefs.
Either your understanding is incorrect or your not understanding correctly! You pick which one!
The underlying truth that you are contradicting with your handful of scriptures, BUT, I can explain your passages in light of the immediate context as well as the overall context. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL LISTEN TO SUCH AN EXPLAINATION.
M
mikeledes
Guest
What I mean by “extremely literal”, Linkowski, was that a verse should not be taken at face value. What 1 John 3:9 and all similar passages in 1 John describe is the basic character of a Christian. I’ll address Hebrews 3:14 later.
Ezekiel 3:19-21
**19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. **
That’s one. Please reread that verse. Your interpretation makes no sense.
Hebrews 10:38
38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE (subject/noun) SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE (pronoun) SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
That’s two!
To be continued…
M
mikeledes
Guest
Continuation… Part II
God describes someone as being righteous but they are in fact *not *righteous? How can you be righteous in the sight of God and not righteous in His sight at the same time?
Luke 5:30-32
**30The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?”
31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. **
** 32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” **
The point Jesus is making is that he is not going to use his time to “preach to the choir.” In other words, when you evangelize, Linkowski, do you evangelize people that have repented and believed or do you evangelize people who have not believed. There were righteous people when Jesus walked the earth and before he incarnated.
Luke 1:6
6They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking (N)blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
John 1:47
**47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” **
People like Elizabeth and Zechariah had no need of repentance because they were righteous (i.e. previously repented). Those who are whole (i.e. healed), do not need a physician. That is why Jesus spent time (i.e. eat) with sinners.
BUT - we are those that believe to the saving of the soul. What a bold statement!!
I will address the rest of your post later. But please note that the verses in Ezekiel, God is plainly speaking about the righteous. He even contrasts the wicked with the righteous.
God Bless,
Michael
This sounds like a Bill Clinton moment to me.
God describes someone as being righteous but they are in fact *not *righteous? How can you be righteous in the sight of God and not righteous in His sight at the same time?These verses have been taken out of their context:
Luke 5:30-32
**30The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?”
31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. **
** 32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” **
The point Jesus is making is that he is not going to use his time to “preach to the choir.” In other words, when you evangelize, Linkowski, do you evangelize people that have repented and believed or do you evangelize people who have not believed. There were righteous people when Jesus walked the earth and before he incarnated.
Luke 1:6
6They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking (N)blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
John 1:47
**47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” **
People like Elizabeth and Zechariah had no need of repentance because they were righteous (i.e. previously repented). Those who are whole (i.e. healed), do not need a physician. That is why Jesus spent time (i.e. eat) with sinners.
BUT - we are those that believe to the saving of the soul. What a bold statement!!
You also cannot attempt to explain away a passage that contradicts your theology in a way that violates the basic rules of grammar, semantics, logic, and common sense.
I will address the rest of your post later. But please note that the verses in Ezekiel, God is plainly speaking about the righteous. He even contrasts the wicked with the righteous.
I suspected that!
God Bless,
Michael
- Status