Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[VociMike]

**…a true Christian cannot fall away so as not to return. **
But how can any person know with certainty that they are a “true Christian”? After all, this man once thought he was a true Christian.

…a true Christian who falls back into sin is still saved, but at the same time a person who lives a life controlled by sin is not truly a Christian.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Just a heads up brother, make sure you add the link and give credit to the author, it be da rules!
gotquestions.org/backsliding-Christian.html

Thank you–I dont know how to do links Im linked challeneged.

Thanks for doing it for me.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But how can any person know with certainty that they are a “true Christian”? After all, this man once thought he was a true Christian.

But sometimes a person doesn’t reveal a life “controlled by sin” until later in life.

But at one time they thought they were Christian, and everybody around them thought they were Christian. Thus once again experience teaches that no individual can be absolutely sure they are a “true Christian”.

So stop claiming otherwise and just hope in the Lord.

For me, I trust the Holy Spirit to let me know. It really can only be known between that person and God.

People know when they are in perpetual sin they are just choosing to deny it.

It is a very personal thing and that is all I have to say. The truth of what the bible tells us about this is there it is just a matter of belief and faith on the part of the person asking and wondering. Oh and I should add repentance too

 

[VociMike]

For me, I trust the Holy Spirit to let me know. It really can only be known between that person and God.

What you seem to be saying here is that every single person, ever, who thought they were a Christian, who once thought they believed in Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who later rejected him, had to know down deep before they rejected Christ that they were not really Christians.

Is that your claim?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What you seem to be saying here is that every single person, ever, who thought they were a Christian, who once thought they believed in Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who later rejected him, had to know down deep before they rejected Christ that they were not really Christians.

Is that your claim?

No, I was talking about habitual sin. Not necessarily rejecting Christ–that is a whole other ball game.
From what I have studied when you out and out reject Christ it is considered apostacy. When a person has thought of themselves as a christian follows all the rules of their religion(denom-whatever they may be)and has seen what being a christian really truly means and what it can do and then they turn around and reject Christ --I would say that person was never a true christian(in the biblical sense) to begin with because God tells us He will never let us go(if we are a true believer). So I take this to mean that if that person was allowed to walk away , they didnt belong to Christ in the first place.

Again, Im sure there are others on the board that can do a better job then I.

 

[Contarini]

No, I was talking about habitual sin. Not necessarily rejecting Christ–that is a whole other ball game.
From what I have studied when you out and out reject Christ it is considered apostacy. When a person has thought of themselves as a christian follows all the rules of their religion(denom-whatever they may be)and has seen what being a christian really truly means and what it can do and then they turn around and reject Christ --I would say that person was never a true christian(in the biblical sense) to begin with because God tells us He will never let us go(if we are a true believer). So I take this to mean that if that person was allowed to walk away , they didnt belong to Christ in the first place.

Again, Im sure there are others on the board that can do a better job then I.

You just keep dodging the question. Are you asking us to believe that no apostate ever had a subjective experience as strong and convincing as yours? Do you simply believe as a matter of faith that whatever it was they said they believed and experience before their apostasy, it couldn’t possibly have been what you believe and experience?

This is a serious question, and so far you have completely failed to answer it.

Many evangelicals and fundamentalists see Catholics’ lack of assurance as the single biggest problem with Catholicism. Yet the idea of assurance (at least the OSAS version) falls apart when one examines it seriously, as this thread shows. It’s purely subjective. By any measurable standard, there are people who have every reason to think they are saved but who then fall away. There is simply no evidence that there is some experience of salvation that gives one legitimate reason to be certain of final salvation.

The Arminian/Wesleyan notion of assurance, which pertains purely to present salvation, is far more defensible, but can still be problematic if taken too far.

Edwin

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Is this better? From gotquestions.org
** “Can a Christian lose salvation?”**

Answer: Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

        So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

        A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

        A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

        A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and undeclare what He had previously declared.

        A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in Heaven with God. God promises, “believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

        A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in Heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

        Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few, though, make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says occurs to a person when he/she receives Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind - two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

         The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are: (1) what about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? – and – (2) what about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the assumption “are Christians.” (1) The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). (2) The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he/she never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19).

        continued

 

[ALLFORHIM]

post continued

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”
Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

 

[Contarini]

No, it’s not better. It doesn’t even try to answer the question.

Edwin

 

[ALLFORHIM]

No, it’s not better. It doesn’t even try to answer the question.

Edwin

Are you talking about having the experience? Because to me the experience is simply accepting Christ as your Savior–admitting you need one and repenting. I didnt ever have one of those crazy experiences(emotional)that I think you are referring to. I never went up to an altar call. I just simply heard the gospel and believed.

Maybe Im missing the question then because I believe the articles I put forth has answered the questions put forth.

It may just be that you dont agree with it is all.

 

[VociMike]

Are you talking about having the experience? Because to me the experience is simply accepting Christ as your Savior–admitting you need one and repenting. I didnt ever have one of those crazy experiences(emotional)that I think you are referring to. I never went up to an altar call. I just simply heard the gospel and believed.

The problem is, even if one accepts that “true Christians” cannot lose their salvation, there is still no way for a person to know at a given time if they are a true Christian. What is undeniable is that a great many people who at one point in their lives were certain that they were true Christians, and of whom others around them believed they were true Christians, have gone on later in life to reject Christ in thought, word and/or deed. You can say they were never true Christians to begin with, but the lesson learned is that no person can ever be sure they are a true Christian. Only time will tell. Just as in the Catholic view.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

How about this? Because this is what I believ wholeheartedly.
Not that that should sway you of course
From gotquestions.org

Question: "How can I have assurance of my salvation?"

Answer: How can you know for sure if you are saved? Consider 1 John 5:11-13 (NLT): “And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. So whoever has God’s Son has life; whoever does not have his Son does not have life. I write this to you who believe in the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.” Who is it that has the Son? Those who have believed in Him and accepted Him (John 1:12). If you have Jesus, you have life. Eternal life. Not temporary, but eternal.

        God wants us to have assurance of our salvation. We cannot live our Christian lives wondering and worrying each day whether we are truly saved or not. That is why the Bible makes the plan of salvation so clear. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (John 3:16; Acts 16:31). Do you believe that Jesus is the Savior, that He died to pay the penalty for your sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21)? Are you trusting Him alone for salvation? If your answer is yes, you are saved! Assurance means to "put beyond all doubt." By taking God's Word to heart, you can "put beyond all doubt" the fact and reality of your eternal salvation.

Jesus Himself states this regarding those who have believed in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me” (John 10:28-29 NLT). Again, this gives more emphasis to “eternal.” Eternal life is just that–eternal. There is nobody, not even yourself, who can take Christ’s God-given gift of salvation away from you.

Memorize these passages. We hide God’s Word in our hearts so that we do not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11), and this includes doubt. Take joy in what God’s Word is saying to you: That instead of doubt we can live with confidence! We can have the assurance from Christ’s own Word that the state of our salvation will never be in question. Our assurance is based on God’s love for us through Jesus Christ. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The problem is, even if one accepts that “true Christians” cannot lose their salvation, there is still no way for a person to know at a given time if they are a true Christian. What is undeniable is that a great many people who at one point in their lives were certain that they were true Christians, and of whom others around them believed they were true Christians, have gone on later in life to reject Christ in thought, word and/or deed. You can say they were never true Christians to begin with, but the lesson learned is that no person can ever be sure they are a true Christian. Only time will tell. Just as in the Catholic view.

Yeah I hear what you are saying which is why I said it is personal. I can only speak for myself. I know that I am saved based on what the Word of God tells me and how God has been working in my life and changing me–like the bible says we are new creatures. If you knew me before and after salvation you would say–there is something different about her. And you know maybe it does take a little time to know 100% because people dont change overnight. But as you see the Lord working in your life–you begin to realize WOW IT IS ALL TRUE AMEN!!!

I would say it took me a good 7 years or so to finally get it. So, I will say that at the point of salvation, a person might not initially feel that security but over time and study of the Word–the security will come.

Just because someone doesnt believe it or see it right away does not mean it isnt true.

 

[exiled]

No, I was talking about habitual sin. Not necessarily rejecting Christ–that is a whole other ball game.
From what I have studied when you out and out reject Christ it is considered apostacy. When a person has thought of themselves as a christian follows all the rules of their religion(denom-whatever they may be)and has seen what being a christian really truly means and what it can do and then they turn around and reject Christ **–I would say that person was never a true christian(in the biblical sense) to begin with because God tells us He will never let us go(if we are a true believer). So I take this to mean that if that person was allowed to walk away , they didnt belong to Christ in the first place. **
Again, Im sure there are others on the board that can do a better job then I.

Here we find what I consider the biggest error. If the person was never saved to begin with, then he never had God’s grace to begin with. If God has denied His grace to a person knowing they would later all away, then they had no chance in you-know-what to have been saved. This soul never had a chance.
This is not the God I serve!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Here we find what I consider the biggest error. If the person was never saved to begin with, then he never had God’s grace to begin with. If God has denied His grace to a person knowing they would later all away, then they had no chance in you-know-what to have been saved. This soul never had a chance.
This is not the God I serve!

I dont know-maybe God was giving this person every opportunity and they still chose to turn their back. God loves us enough to let us use our free will. God will not force you into heaven kicking and screaming. He will also only give you so many chances apparently before He hardens your heart. I believe that is somewhere in the OT.

 

[Pug]

Maybe the idea that, “I am eternally secure,” is an article of faith. It is something that is taken strictly on faith. It may or may not be the same thing, but what if you ask a Catholic how they know the Church is infallible. That is part of the Catholic faith, so *most *will say that they are sure it is infallible. Then, say they become some other religion. What will they say about their former belief that the Church was infallible? Most likely they will say that they were wrong. So, what does that make of their former surety? Just thinking out loud here.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Maybe the idea that, “I am eternally secure,” is an article of faith. It is something that is taken strictly on faith. It may or may not be the same thing, but what if you ask a Catholic how they know the Church is infallible. That is part of the Catholic faith, so *most *will say that they are sure it is infallible. Then, say they become some other religion. What will they say about their former belief that the Church was infallible? Most likely they will say that they were wrong. So, what does that make of their former surety? Just thinking out loud here.

Well if you think about it everything all of us believe is by faith. We cant see God(per say)I know we see Him in nature. We have the bible that was written by men—ALL of the history we have(we werent there)we have faith that what we know about history is true. Even history is skewed though. you get my point.

IT IS ALL ABOUT FAITH------ALL OF IT-----EVERY RELIGION–EVERY DENOM

 

[Cat]

If the mods remove this post, I will understand. I hope I am using it to make an important point, not to spread gossip. The information is known to the public and I have provided a link. There are lots of other links if people care to Google.

ALLFORHIM, you have referred us to Charles Stanley in your posts about eternal security.

gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/charlesstanley/CharlesStanley.html

In the mid-1990s, Pastor Stanley and his wife of 44 years nearly divorced. His church at that time did not allow divorced men in pastoral positions. Pastor Stanley told his church that if he divorced, he would step down from the pulpit.

A few years later, Pastor and Mrs. Stanley divorced. ( 44 years of marriage dissolved. How incredibly sad. God help them.)

And Pastor Stanley did NOT step down from the pulpit, and the people in his congregation applauded him.

My husband and I were Protestant when all this happened. It was one of the incidents that made us question the Protestant church. (There were many incidents in the 1990s that made us ask serious questions about why we were Protestant.)

How is it that Pastor Stanley and his church can teach “no divorced pastors” and then only a few years later, change their minds? (They based both teachings on the Bible.)

ALLFORHIM, do you supposed it’s possible that Pastor Stanley teaches “once saved always saved” now, but in a few years, will change his mind and teach that a Christian can fall away from Christ?

And as long as we’re asking questions: Pastor and Mrs. Stanley were undoubtedly married for 44 years. When they first got married, do you supposed they ever dreamed that their relationship would fall apart and someday end? Do you suppose they ever dreamed this at 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

Of course not. They probably assumed, as all of us do, that our relationship with our spouse will last forever. But at least half the people in this country end up losing their marriage relationship. Pastor and Mrs. Stanley broke their relationship after 44 years. Heck, a lot of married couples don’t even live that long!

In the same way, when a person makes a decision for Jesus Christ, they don’t dream that they will EVER lose that relationship. They will love Jesus forever. After all, He said that HE will love us forever.

But obviously many Christians lose their love for Jesus, and end the relationship.

Jesus will never give up on us or stop loving us. The Bible makes that clear.

But I don’t accept that Jesus will force someone to be with Him forever when that person has made it clear that he/she wishes to reject Christ and go their own way. That wouldn’t be true love, that would be coercion.

I do think that God will go to extraordinary lengths to woo his errant children back to Him. I believe that most people who fall away will find their way back to Him again and that we need to pray for those who have lost their faith. I love the Catholic teaching that we can never be sure that someone has gone to hell because we don’t know their hearts, only God does, and the person may have repented in the last moments of their lives. I think God is rich in mercy and will forgive the most “fallen” of Christians if they come to Him.

But I also think that if the salvation story is “true,” then free will must be true. If we didn’t have free will, then God would be free to save every person in the world throughout history because our decision would not be involved at all.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

B]ALLFORHIM, do you supposed it’s possible that Pastor Stanley teaches “once saved always saved” now, but in a few years, will change his mind and teach that a Christian can fall away from Christ?

Sure he can because he is human. But it doesnt mean it is not true. All that shows is that he is infallible like the rest of us sinners.

But I don’t accept that Jesus will force someone to be with Him forever when that person has made it clear that he/she wishes to reject Christ and go their own way. That wouldn’t be true love, that would be coercion.

I agree–the difference lies within that person. Did they make a true profession of faith or not. Only they and God know. The one who did not and is faking it will eventually fall away unless the HS makes it known to them their sin and they repent–

I do think that God will go to extraordinary lengths to woo his errant children back to Him. I believe that most people who fall away will find their way back to Him again and that we need to pray for those who have lost their faith. I love the Catholic teaching that we can never be sure that someone has gone to hell because we don’t know their hearts, only God does, and the person may have repented in the last moments of their lives. I think God is rich in mercy and will forgive the most “fallen” of Christians if they come to Him.

I have no problem with that comment.

But I also think that if the salvation story is “true,” then free will must be true. If we didn’t have free will, then God would be free to save every person in the world throughout history because our decision would not be involved at all.

Yeah the whole free will theology is tricky territory. One Im not willing to go down because I dont have enough knowledge on it. I do believe in free will of course.

 

[apophasis]

Contarini:

You just keep dodging the question. Are you asking us to believe that no apostate ever had a subjective experience as strong and convincing as yours? Do you simply believe as a matter of faith that whatever it was they said they believed and experience before their apostasy, it couldn’t possibly have been what you believe and experience?

This is a serious question, and so far you have completely failed to answer it.

She hasn’t dodged the question at all. She’s provided you with many answers which you simply reject. Your personal rejection of her answers doesn’t mean she’s dodged the question, but possibly you’ve dodged the answer.

The answer to the original question to evangelicals as to how they know they have “saving faith” is that they know WHOM they have believed. As the Apostle Paul himself said:2 Tim 1:12 "For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.Saving faith trusts in the divine message the Father has given concerning the Son, and the saved know the One in whom they have believed.

Saving faith looks completely away from self and rests completely in the only One who has the power to save, justify and glorify competely, according to His GRACE.

How do we know our faith is “saving faith?” Because it rests not in any church or creed, but only in the One who came to do just that - save:"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be SAVED THROUGH HIM. He who believes IN HIM is not judged; he who does not believe (i.e, in Him) has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."More often than not the lack of personal assurance of salvation is caused by the lack of personal faith in the One who actually does the saving - to the glory of Christ. They don’t believe that He actually can based on the redeeming power of the cross alone. IOW, they don’t believe what He said.

This unbelief does not sit still, it’s not silent, but is the root of all false gospels and false teachings regarding “the faith” through which one is divinely saved.

Always the unbeliever turns his back to divine GRACE and fearfully clings to works of some kind. And yet those works will never provide assurance of salvation - only the continual fear of condemnation. Because according to God’s Word, He saves through faith in His Son ALONE, according to His GRACE alone.

Only in Him is there forgiveness of sins and only in Him does LIFE reign (Rom. 5:17, 21). :extrahappy: