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apophasis
Guest
That’s a VERY important question since Christ Himself said:""…that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (Jn. 3:16).
I’m sure you know what the word “believe” means. But the real question is what does “in Him” mean? Since it’s believing “in Him” that causes one not to perish (forgo judgment) and HAVE eternal life (Jn. 5:24).
When you figure that out, Chuck, then you’re closer to saving faith than ever.
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VociMike
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So then “saving faith” requires a level of intellectual mastery? This is a new condition.
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LilyM
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OneForTruth
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We are to have an assurance of our salvation. That is part of our strength. Are we to make certain of our calling and election, yes…2Pet 1:10To my Evangelical friends, of whom I was once one, I would like to ask a question of you.
How do you know you have what you call saving faith?
In the parable of the sower, our Lord tells us that there are some who believe for a while and then they fall away. How are you certain that you are not one of these? What verses in the Bible would you use to back up your conviction, to be sure that you are in the faith?
I have asked this of an Evangelical here on this forum, but have not heard a response. I understand that he is busy, but I want to widen up the opportunity for more responses to this foundational question. I have also asked this of an Evangelical friend of mine almost 2 years ago, and to date he has not given an answer. He has not even attempted one.
In addition to this, I will pose a second related question:
How do you know you have the Holy Spirit to guide you into the right interpretation of the bible?
Many thanks.
2 Peter 1:10 NAS95 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
Are we to test ourselves…yes…
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?
Against what…there are plenty of criteria in the book of 1 John…Some of which are…
Hate sin…
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Love…
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
Believe on Christ as Lord and Savior…
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
Have overcome the world…
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Keep commandments…
1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
And there are more…
There are other bold statements in scripture…
1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Hebrews 10:39 KJV 39 But **we are not of them **who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
We are the good seed in Matthew 13 - the parable of wheat and tares…the good of the parable of the dragnet in Matthew 13.
Take away assurance and you take away the joy of a Christian and their strength to serve to the degree that God wills for them to serve.
1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
This verse means much for us…for, by Him and the Word of God, we have been changed!!
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
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OneForTruth
Guest
Proverbs 24:16 KJV 16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Just because you are a Christian does not mean you cannot fall into sin…the difference is, we get back up! What about someone who wallows in sin and falls back permanently? What do we say??
2 John 1:9 KJV 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
1 John 3:6 KJV 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
But as for us…
Psalms 37:23-24 KJV 23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for ***the LORD upholdeth him ***with his hand.
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guanophore
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This may be true about people who reject Christ,but this cannot be properly called apostacy. Apostacy is falling away. A person has to belong, be connected, and be part of before one can commit apostacy.No, I was talking about habitual sin. Not necessarily rejecting Christ–that is a whole other ball game.
From what I have studied when you out and out reject Christ it is considered apostacy. When a person has thought of themselves as a christian follows all the rules of their religion(denom-whatever they may be)and has seen what being a christian really truly means and what it can do and then they turn around and reject Christ --I would say that person was never a true christian(in the biblical sense) to begin with because God tells us He will never let us go(if we are a true believer). So I take this to mean that if that person was allowed to walk away , they didnt belong to Christ in the first place.
Again, Im sure there are others on the board that can do a better job then I.
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exiled
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How does a saved Christian know he/she will not fall into habitual sin later in life? How do you know some life altering event will not cause you to lose hope? Think of the heaviest cross any of us can carry, and imagine that happening to you. Losing an entire family in a plane crash. A kidnapped child, grandchild, or whatever.
I think the point that I, as a Catholic, am getting at is that you don’t know what is coming and you simply do not know how your faith will hold up.
Surely you pray each day that your faith will remain through such a trial, I know I do. But if I pray that God helps me to remain faithful, that goes to show I have no guarantee that I will, because as ALLFORHIM said earlier, He won’t drag you kicking and screaming to Himself.
Peter swore he would not deny Christ, but he did, repeatedly. He returned to Lord and that was his salvation.
I’m not sure Judas is the best comparison, but how many thought he was saved? Did he think so himself for a time?
If you can admit that you don’t have perfect foreknowledge of the future, than you must admit that you do not know if you are one of the saved, and therefore you agree with the Catholic POV.
I think the point that I, as a Catholic, am getting at is that you don’t know what is coming and you simply do not know how your faith will hold up.
Surely you pray each day that your faith will remain through such a trial, I know I do. But if I pray that God helps me to remain faithful, that goes to show I have no guarantee that I will, because as ALLFORHIM said earlier, He won’t drag you kicking and screaming to Himself.
Peter swore he would not deny Christ, but he did, repeatedly. He returned to Lord and that was his salvation.
I’m not sure Judas is the best comparison, but how many thought he was saved? Did he think so himself for a time?
If you can admit that you don’t have perfect foreknowledge of the future, than you must admit that you do not know if you are one of the saved, and therefore you agree with the Catholic POV.
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ALLFORHIM
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Hi Lily,
There is a difference between a christian who sins and an unbeliever who’s sins control his life. A true christian will not let sin control their life.
I sin, you sin, we all sin(should I write a song
)the difference is we repent and turn away from our sin and truly feel sorry and want to do better. This is because w e love the Lord and want to please Him by not giving in to our sinful nature. The bible tells us that once we are “IN CHRIST” we can overcome sin. The HS gives us the power to do so.An unbeliever does not have that kind of power over sin. Fleshly desires are still controlling them. A person who is not saved(yet) will not be able to turn away from their sin because they want to please themselves and not Christ.
I hope I clarified. Check out Romans 8
and Romans 7:7-25
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Cat
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ALLFORHIM and others, I find this frightening.
As an evangelical, I too was taught that if someone goes out from among us, he was never with us.
I knew Christians who were ROCK SOLID, elders or deacons in the church, involved in teaching or even pastoral ministries, knowledgeable in the Bible and doctrine, involved with children’s or youth ministries, teaching new believers and old believers–and these people FELL AWAY from God and announced that they no longer believed in Jesus.
You have known people like this. If you haven’t, then you haven’t been in church for long.
If the doctrine is true, that they never knew Christ, then that is terrifying. We can NEVER, EVER trust ANYONE in the church.
Frankly, I would NEVER leave my children with anyone other than me. They might not be real Christians.
And how do I know that I won’t end up like these others?
Now I’m NOT talking about someone who accepts Christ at a Billy Graham Crusade, is miraculously delivered from an addictive sin, joins a church, starts teaching a Sunday School class (too early for a baby Christian, IMO), and brings everyone to tears with their stirring testimony, and then one year later falls back into their addiction, stops coming the church, and tells everyone that they just don’t believe it anymore.
I’m talking about the “pillars in the church,” people who have walked and talked among us for years, sometimes DECADES, and were accepted by all, including the pastors and elders, as Christians. THESE people fall away–you know they do.
Are you honestly saying that these people were NEVER Christians to begin with, and that ALL of the people in the church, including knowledgeable pastors, were deceived by them.
SHUDDER! Isn’t that scary to you?
As an evangelical, I too was taught that if someone goes out from among us, he was never with us.
I knew Christians who were ROCK SOLID, elders or deacons in the church, involved in teaching or even pastoral ministries, knowledgeable in the Bible and doctrine, involved with children’s or youth ministries, teaching new believers and old believers–and these people FELL AWAY from God and announced that they no longer believed in Jesus.
You have known people like this. If you haven’t, then you haven’t been in church for long.
If the doctrine is true, that they never knew Christ, then that is terrifying. We can NEVER, EVER trust ANYONE in the church.
Frankly, I would NEVER leave my children with anyone other than me. They might not be real Christians.
And how do I know that I won’t end up like these others?
Now I’m NOT talking about someone who accepts Christ at a Billy Graham Crusade, is miraculously delivered from an addictive sin, joins a church, starts teaching a Sunday School class (too early for a baby Christian, IMO), and brings everyone to tears with their stirring testimony, and then one year later falls back into their addiction, stops coming the church, and tells everyone that they just don’t believe it anymore.
I’m talking about the “pillars in the church,” people who have walked and talked among us for years, sometimes DECADES, and were accepted by all, including the pastors and elders, as Christians. THESE people fall away–you know they do.
Are you honestly saying that these people were NEVER Christians to begin with, and that ALL of the people in the church, including knowledgeable pastors, were deceived by them.
SHUDDER! Isn’t that scary to you?
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1962Missal
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This is pretty sound. The Church even teaches as much:I sin, you sin, we all sin(should I write a song
The problem is that there are those who, to all intents and purposes, walk closely with Chirst, live reformed lives, and STILL fall away before the end. How does one account for those who, at one time, firmly believed themselves to be saved, and, in fact, lived lives of genuine repentance, but failed to persevere to the end and fell into a life of sin or apostasy? How is such a one, before falling away, to be distinguished, in practical terms, from the “true Christian”?
Justin
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guanophore
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I wonder why I would not find myself swayed by that?How about this? Because this is what I believ wholeheartedly.
Not that that should sway you of course
“Even the demons believe - and shudder.” James 2:19-20
Your source does not specify this, but John also wrote that those who believe obey the commandments of Jesus.
On what basis is this assertion made?
If a so called “believer” is unable to live in peace without knowing the future, then that one does not really have trust in God. It is also not a fully consecrated life. It is a life that continues to expect God to “give” as though it is owed. A more pure faith is that faith that has not “seen” and yet believes. Such was the faith of "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed’nego answered the king, “O Nebuchadnez’zar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.” Dan 3:16-18
God is able, but if He does not, would one still consecrate oneself?
Do such people claim to meet this description? Are they enlightened? Have they have tasted the heavenly gift? Are they partakers of the Holy Spirit? Have they tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come?
I agree that a believer cannot be snatched out of God’s hand. Such a one has to willfully push God’s grasp away and turn from Him. On the other hand, “eternal life” is not something that “belongs” to a peson. It is a quality of divinity into which a person may enter and remain, enter and exit, or refuse to enter at all. When we are “in Christ” we “have eternal life” and those that are not “in Christ” do not experience it.
No Catholic would disagree with this. T!he only disagreement is about what the Word is actually saying
Only if you ignore or twist certain other passages.
Of course God is able! That is not in question. And the believer who is “in Christ” is also able to do all things. But it is possible for one to come to Come to Christ, and then reject Him.
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apophasis
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Kind of overstated, don’t you think Mike? “Faith” requires belief in something or someone. In respect to saving faith it’s both: The Person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ.John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."The simplicity of the gospel message of Jesus Christ does not require a certain “level of intellectual mastery,” in fact, it’s the simplicity of it that causes most to stumble (Rom. 9:32).
The fruit of saving faith (the faith that saves) rejoices in divine GRACE through what Christ has done, once for all, on our behalf. Unbelief, on the other hand, continues to beg for divine MERCY, refusing to accept that what Christ has done is sufficient, and looks to self. Saving faith must turn completely away from self and trust solely in Another. There lies the difference. Therein lies assurance. Something you will never find or enjoy in a works oriented, religious system.
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apophasis
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What you’re expressing here, “exiled,” is salvation based on your performance, not Christ’s. What you’re actually describing here is unbelief and all the uncertainties and fears that accompany it. “Saving faith” (the faith through which God saves a sinner) turns away from self and rests completely on the perfect performance of Another - Jesus Christ the righteous:John 3:17-18 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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apophasis
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NONE of what you say here is based on “saving faith.” It’s not the faith through which God saves a sinner. It’s all of self, none of Christ. In reality, it’s unbelief. Saving faith turns completely away from self and trusts in the Word concerning Christ. Only when the saved turn again to self are their hearts flooded with fear and uncertainties. They don’t lose their salvation, only the assurance of it. As it should be! Divine salvation does not originate nor rest in ourselves, but in the Person and work of Christ alone.
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Cat
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Oh, I get it. “Saving faith” is what I saw so much of in the Protestant world–“I’m saved by faith and I don’t have to do a darned thing. In fact, to do anything would be a sin of unbelief in God’s finished work.”
I heard this over and over and OVER. And I saw it in myself–I wanted to work for Jesus, but was told if I worked, it would be unbelief because I would be placing faith in my “works” instead of in God.
That’s why Jesus came to earth, to suffer and die, then pass around the salvation lollipops for FREE to everyone. We can just coast our way to heaven on the magical faith sled.
All we have to do is let Jesus work through us, and if He chooses not to, well, that’s HIS business, not ours. We just have to believe.
Grr.
This is one of the reasons why I started questioning Protestantism. This doctrine just doesn’t WORK! It results in lazy, selfish, mean-spirited people who wouldn’t give a dime to help someone and think that they’re saved because they can sway and clap and cry to Christian rock music.
I saw it happen over and over. It made me sick. And what really made me sick is that I saw it happening in ME.
Good thing all those Bible verses about “doing good works” and “working out salvation” and “pursuing righteousness” are in the Bible.
I heard this over and over and OVER. And I saw it in myself–I wanted to work for Jesus, but was told if I worked, it would be unbelief because I would be placing faith in my “works” instead of in God.
That’s why Jesus came to earth, to suffer and die, then pass around the salvation lollipops for FREE to everyone. We can just coast our way to heaven on the magical faith sled.
All we have to do is let Jesus work through us, and if He chooses not to, well, that’s HIS business, not ours. We just have to believe.
Grr.
This is one of the reasons why I started questioning Protestantism. This doctrine just doesn’t WORK! It results in lazy, selfish, mean-spirited people who wouldn’t give a dime to help someone and think that they’re saved because they can sway and clap and cry to Christian rock music.
I saw it happen over and over. It made me sick. And what really made me sick is that I saw it happening in ME.
Good thing all those Bible verses about “doing good works” and “working out salvation” and “pursuing righteousness” are in the Bible.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
And you can raise one or both arms in the air while the music is playing as further evidence of your salvation, but don’t even think of making the sign of the cross
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apophasis
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1 Cor 1:17-18 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God
1 Cor 1:20-21 "Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Not for salvation. To be saved (by God) what you have to do is believe the “foolishness” of the message of the cross. As Paul states above.
A false conclusion and not based on ANY reality at all. “Christian rock” might appeal to many young people, but it can save no one. Maybe that was your problem.
Good works are good, and at the judgment seat of Christ there will be rewards accordingly. Working “out” ones salvation unto maturity is good also. But no one can work “for” salvation. And the saved certainly are to pursue a righteous life style, to the glory of Christ, but not FOR the pursuit of salvation. Those who believe are gifted “the righteousness of God” through personal faith in the Person and work of the Son. Upon belief the saved are “made righteous” in HimRom 5:19 "For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."Was it “Protestantism” you fled or the “word of the cross?”
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Mickey
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I think it might have been the rock music and swaying arms.
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