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ALLFORHIM
Guest
I was wondering why you would make such a statement and then I looked at your profile and I noticed you are young and from Jersey
LOL You know what they say about US Jerseyans WE are mean, rude, dishonest blah blah blah. LOL At least we are not like those other people from NJ because we know Christ.
I have also noticed on this forum that the young ones here are a bit more aggressive in nature(on both sides I might add)When I was young I was the same way
Ive mellowed in my old age.I hope you have figured out I am from NJ too!!! Actually you live pretty close to me
Dont worry I wont come after you with my bible
Only here maybeOk back to topic-- We continue to do these things because we love Christ and the fact that he did save us. What an awesome act of AGAPE love:extrahappy:
AND we are told to do these things because we are new creatures in Christ. AMEN!!
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ALLFORHIM
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:bigyikes: WHAT!! Do you really mean this?
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mikeledes
Guest
Pray for the Cardinals!
I hope you mean pray for their souls. I’m a Mets fan! 
God Bless,
Michael
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
japhy has a point. The ultimate goal in life is to be “saved” to gain eternal life in heaven. If you are already saved, what more could God want you to learn? Does God want OSASers be be “better saved” somehow?:bigyikes: WHAT!! Do you really mean this?
Marriage is a process. The ultimate goal is to live a fruitful and blessed life together in faith that is pleasing to God. Sounds like the Catholic understanding of salvation doesn’t it. That’s not by chance. Thats how God intended it. And it’s how God teaches marriage to us thru scripture and his Church.
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ALLFORHIM
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japhy has a point. The ultimate goal in life is to be “saved” to gain eternal life in heaven. If you are already saved, what more could God want you to learn? Does God want OSASers be be “better saved” somehow?
Yes but we can only live that way after God saves us. We cant do it without the Holy Spirit in us. We do not receieve the HS in us until we are saved.
We are to become more Christ-like throughout our lives. So better saved–no that is like a little bit pregnant. Better more mature christians yes
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japhy
Guest
I’m trying to prove a point. If sin is a “virus” that you can obtain everlasting immunity to by getting “Jesus antibodies”, then you will never be affected by sin again, and do not need your immune system to receive those antibodies again. In other words, once Jesus has saved you, you no longer need further saving. To say that you have to do anything after being saved places limitations or requirements or provisions on your salvation, or implies that salvation is not through faith alone.:bigyikes: WHAT!! Do you really mean this?
If you’re saved, that means you’re going to Heaven, right? And you’re not going to Heaven because of what you do with the rest of your life, you’re going to Heaven because you’re saved by Jesus, right? Nothing short of being saved gets a person into Heaven, right? Why should God ask us for anything after we’re saved? If it won’t add to our justification, and nothing we can do will nullify our justification, why should I bother to lift a finger after saying the Sinner’s Prayer and accepting Jesus into my life?
Jesus is both Savior and Lord. The Council of Trent, Session VI on Justification, Canon XXI reiterates this: If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.
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ALLFORHIM
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Well, according to my son’s little league team Im a Giants fan. I have to be that is the team he is onPray for the Cardinals!
God Bless,
Michael
I dont even know who the Giants are well except the New York Giants but that is football–BTW IM NOT A GIANTS FAN BLAHHH
GO COWBOYS!!!
and I have lived in Jersey my whole life–go figure:shrug:
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apophasis
Guest
Yup, he does! :yup::bigyikes: WHAT!! Do you really mean this?
To them salvation is a “process.” So for the sake of “job security” God won’t save anyone through faith in Christ alone. This way both He and we have “work.” Nothing worse than bored Christianity with a useless God.
Based on this line of thinking, one can only imagine how boring eternity is going to be. There’s absolutely nothing to look forward to.
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ALLFORHIM
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Cat
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The marriage analogy is an especially unfortunate one.
We keep following Jesus and doing what he wants us to do because we love him so much.
THIS myth destroys marriages. It is the road to divorce.
How many people break up because “they don’t love each other anymore?”
In a good marriage, a couple keeps doing things for each other because they are married, even if they don’t FEEL ANYTHING for each other. I believe that mostcouples who do this will eventually begin “feeling” again. But it doesn’t matter. You do because you are married, not because of a feeling.
In the same way, when we choose to follow Jesus, we keep following Him not because we love Him, but because we have chosen to follow Him and want to keep running the race until the end.
HOPEFULLY, we will love Him, because He first loved us. But I will admit that there are many minutes in every day that I don’t LOVE Jesus. There are times when I am tempted by sin and want to forget all about Jesus and jump right into the sin. And there are many, many times when I simply forget all about spiritual things, Jesus, my life with Him, and my future in heaven, and think only about being a human being made up of finite flesh.
I think that this myth of “we do things for Jesus because we love Him” is one of the major reasons why people “fall away.” They don’t feel any “love” for Jesus anymore, and they assume that they aren’t saved, that it is all a crock, that Jesus doesn’t exist, that they are just too sinful to be part of God’s family, etc.
Instead of obeying Jesus because “we love Him,” we should obey Jesus because we made a promise to follow Him. When we find ourselves walking away from Jesus, we should make a deliberate decision to return to Him, repent of our waywardness, confess our sin, and do our penance which will restore us to fellowship with Jesus and with the Church.
Yes, the feelings will be there occasionally, just as they are in a marriage. But just as marriage is a lot of “dailies”–trash to curb, doing dishes, trim the hedge, change the baby, pay the taxes, make love, sit by the hospital bed, etc., so a relationship with Christ is a lot of “dailies”–pray, read some Scripture, go to mass, confess sins, resist temptation, adore, die.
We keep following Jesus and doing what he wants us to do because we love him so much.
THIS myth destroys marriages. It is the road to divorce.
How many people break up because “they don’t love each other anymore?”
In a good marriage, a couple keeps doing things for each other because they are married, even if they don’t FEEL ANYTHING for each other. I believe that mostcouples who do this will eventually begin “feeling” again. But it doesn’t matter. You do because you are married, not because of a feeling.
In the same way, when we choose to follow Jesus, we keep following Him not because we love Him, but because we have chosen to follow Him and want to keep running the race until the end.
HOPEFULLY, we will love Him, because He first loved us. But I will admit that there are many minutes in every day that I don’t LOVE Jesus. There are times when I am tempted by sin and want to forget all about Jesus and jump right into the sin. And there are many, many times when I simply forget all about spiritual things, Jesus, my life with Him, and my future in heaven, and think only about being a human being made up of finite flesh.
I think that this myth of “we do things for Jesus because we love Him” is one of the major reasons why people “fall away.” They don’t feel any “love” for Jesus anymore, and they assume that they aren’t saved, that it is all a crock, that Jesus doesn’t exist, that they are just too sinful to be part of God’s family, etc.
Instead of obeying Jesus because “we love Him,” we should obey Jesus because we made a promise to follow Him. When we find ourselves walking away from Jesus, we should make a deliberate decision to return to Him, repent of our waywardness, confess our sin, and do our penance which will restore us to fellowship with Jesus and with the Church.
Yes, the feelings will be there occasionally, just as they are in a marriage. But just as marriage is a lot of “dailies”–trash to curb, doing dishes, trim the hedge, change the baby, pay the taxes, make love, sit by the hospital bed, etc., so a relationship with Christ is a lot of “dailies”–pray, read some Scripture, go to mass, confess sins, resist temptation, adore, die.
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Cat
Guest
CaptainCoog, you have nailed it.
If a person who falls away was never really saved to begin with, then yes, there is no way to know whether your pastor or Bible teacher or youth sponsor or toddler VBS teacher is REALLY a Christian.
ALLFORHIM and others, have you never seen a pastor or elder or deacon fall away? If you are young, I suppose it’s possible that you haven’t experienced this yet. But I first saw it happen when I was just a little girl. It was the talk of the church. How could ___ fall away? He was a leader in the church!
And I’ve seen it happen over and over and OVER again. These pastors didn’t just stop being pastors, they stopped being CHRISTIANS.
And you say they were never Christians to begin with?
I used to believe this. I grew up in the Conference Baptist Church and this is what was taught.
But when I got older and wiser, I realized that if this was true, then I could never trust anyone in the church. Even the best pastor in the church might not be a “true” Christian.
In the Bible, Paul says that believers should be “imitators of him.” (Yes, he also says that we are to imitate Christ.) Christians should be able to look up to their pastors and “imitate them.” But if they might not really be Christians, then we should constantly question everything they do and say. We should never trust their sermons, but rather, examine every word. We should monitor their activities, and if it appears that they have a besetting “sin”, we should question their Christianity.
Oh, brother! No wonder so many pastors fall away! The pressure to be perfect must be awful!
ALLFORHIM and others, I would like to know how you explain all the verses that talk about “falling away” and “running the race and not losing the prize,” etc. Do you honestly think all these verses are talking about non-Christians who are faking Christianity?
If a person who falls away was never really saved to begin with, then yes, there is no way to know whether your pastor or Bible teacher or youth sponsor or toddler VBS teacher is REALLY a Christian.
ALLFORHIM and others, have you never seen a pastor or elder or deacon fall away? If you are young, I suppose it’s possible that you haven’t experienced this yet. But I first saw it happen when I was just a little girl. It was the talk of the church. How could ___ fall away? He was a leader in the church!
And I’ve seen it happen over and over and OVER again. These pastors didn’t just stop being pastors, they stopped being CHRISTIANS.
And you say they were never Christians to begin with?
I used to believe this. I grew up in the Conference Baptist Church and this is what was taught.
But when I got older and wiser, I realized that if this was true, then I could never trust anyone in the church. Even the best pastor in the church might not be a “true” Christian.
In the Bible, Paul says that believers should be “imitators of him.” (Yes, he also says that we are to imitate Christ.) Christians should be able to look up to their pastors and “imitate them.” But if they might not really be Christians, then we should constantly question everything they do and say. We should never trust their sermons, but rather, examine every word. We should monitor their activities, and if it appears that they have a besetting “sin”, we should question their Christianity.
Oh, brother! No wonder so many pastors fall away! The pressure to be perfect must be awful!
ALLFORHIM and others, I would like to know how you explain all the verses that talk about “falling away” and “running the race and not losing the prize,” etc. Do you honestly think all these verses are talking about non-Christians who are faking Christianity?
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mikeledes
Guest
2 Peter 1:5-9
**5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. **
Among the qualities Peter states one has to make every effort to add to one’s faith are goodness, self-control, and perseverance. And yet he says in verse 9 that the person who lacks these qualities “has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.” He does not say, “such a person never had genuine faith.” You cannot have your sins cleansed without being genuinely justified. In light of this verse, how can we tell someone has genuine saving faith?
God Bless,
Michael
**5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. **
Among the qualities Peter states one has to make every effort to add to one’s faith are goodness, self-control, and perseverance. And yet he says in verse 9 that the person who lacks these qualities “has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.” He does not say, “such a person never had genuine faith.” You cannot have your sins cleansed without being genuinely justified. In light of this verse, how can we tell someone has genuine saving faith?
God Bless,
Michael
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Contarini
Guest
Because you want to?
Whatever happened to love of God? Isn’t that supposed to be kind of big in Catholicism?
Are you really saying that for you it’s all about the reward?
BTW, I think eternal security theology is really, really bad. But not because it takes away the incentive to do good–rather, it has a truncated view of what salvation is in the first place. As, it appears, do you.
Edwin
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi ,
Well, if you further into verse 10 which says
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His (A)calling and (B)choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never (C)stumble;
Therefore–meaning In light of what was just said in the verses 5-9 we (each individual believer)must be diligent in seeking and following the Christian life. Indidviduals must always search their own hearts to make sure they are following Christ the way God tells us to in the Scriptures.
So, the bottom line is I can never totally know for sure that any of you are truly saved because Im not God and I do not know your heart. The only one that can know if they are truly saved is the individual and God.
I can make a guess based on what someone is doing or saying but ultimately it is a guess.
J
japhy
Guest
I’m not espousing a truncated view of salvation. These aren’t my beliefs, I’m using them as an extension of the “eternal security” notion. I don’t believe in eternal security; I do not presume upon my salvation.
As far as “reward” goes, it’s not “all about the reward”, but Paul writes that the reward is a goal: To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (Rom 2:7). I don’t just seek the glorification of God, I seek to partake in His glory, to share in His eternal life. This is not a “bad” reason to persevere in the good deeds that Christ has fashioned me for (cf. Eph 2:10); the Council of Trent reiterated that: If any one saith, the the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema. (Trent VI, Justification, Canon XXXI)
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japhy
Guest
But Peter says you won’t stumble “as long as you practice these things”. The Greek word Peter uses for “sure” is also found in Heb 3:6 (But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.) and Heb 3:14 (For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end), both of which say we are Christ’s if we last to the end.
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mikeledes
Guest
Final salvation is our inheritance! Also, this verse is pretty clear on the relationship between what we sow and what we will reap:
Galatians 6:7- 9
**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **
God Bless,
Michael
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
You know this is a sad statement but true. Humans cannot be trusted like God’s Word can be trusted.
I wouldnt say stalk them or berade them but if they start teaching something unbiblical yes then by all means question them. It doesnt have to be a witch hunt or a minister hunt(if you will)
I would not want to be a pastor either because they are set to a higher standard. God even holds them to a higher standard
We should all pray for our priests and ministers.No, I think they are talking about Christians who need to keep focused on Christ. If we perservere and keep the faith we will be rewarded in heaven. Being saved is obviously our first reward but according to the bible there are rewards in heaven. I dont think too much about that. Also christians are blessed here on earth during our life. If we are not running the race and stumble and do not get up and continue–we will be missing out on the abundance of life God promises us throughout our lifetime. Dont ask me what they are because each one of us is different and I dont know until after they have been given to me. We will also be missing out on the JOY of life that is promised us(however that comes into our life). Christians who do not diligently follow Christ but stumble and stay down will be disciplined by Christ and possibly have a miserable life here on earth but that doesnt make them any less saved. It may mean their faith is weak and they stay as immature christians and never grow in Christ
Honestly the only way to avoid this is to continually study scripture.
You know what–I want to say thank you to you guys because by challenging me you have just solidified my thought process here.
WOW-I think I just took a giant step forward in my own christian maturity. - Status