Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[Contarini]

Hi,
Here Peter is talking about rewards when we enter into heaven not the entrance itself.

That is the exact opposite of what he says! He says “entrance.”

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

1). Protestants only accept an “invisible church” made up of “true Christians”. (This is to get around the idea of an hierarchical, visible structure that looks like the Catholic Church.) Any non-believers and false Christians are not part of this "true church’. Yet you are saying here that there are unbelievers in the true church?

You are misinformed. The view that the Church is purely invisible is pretty rare. My grandmother came close to it, but even she granted some degree of importance to the visible Church–and she took the “invisible stuff” as far as anyone I’ve known (far enough that I have hated the phrase “invisible Church” ever since I rejected my grandmother’s ecclesiology!).

People do of course sometimes contradict themselves. But usually if you think someone you disagree with is blatantly self-contradicting, you have not really understood their thought.

Edwin

 

[apophasis]

Philthy:

Ah, Apo - how have you been? I have a distant memory of praying for you as you traveled to some hurricane ridden spot or something like that - good to see you are still alive and well!

Hi Phil. Back from your “sabbatical?” As I recall you were going to dedicate more time to your Catholic faith. How did that work out for you?

Sorry, but you’ve got your wires crossed on this one, my friend. It wasn’t me you prayed for.

I believe we are called to unite ourselves to that sacrifice Apo. You, know, taking up our crosses daily? Paul states, “I urge you brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God”

This is an admonishment by Paul for the redeemed to live sanctified lives while still in these unredeemed bodies, this side of glory. A life that does not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. It’s not a soteriological verse.

There is only one holy, living sacrifice - and we are called to unite ourselves - body and soul - to it . Doing so is an act of faith.

The sacrifice of Christ was an historical event which took place 2000 years ago. It’s not a “living” sacrifice, it was an historical, one time event with a beginning and an end.

Paul is not making any reference to the cross of Christ here. Nor is he teaching that we are called to, by faith, unite ourselves to it. This Romans 12 passage is an appeal for believers (those forever redeemed by Christ’s sacrificial blood) to now present to God their own bodies “a living and holy sacrifice, well pleasing (acceptable) to God,” in contrast to those slain (dead) offerings Israel brought to God under the Law.

In other words, the believer’s “spiritual service of worship to God” is to not subject his living body to the sinful lusts of this world system, being not conformed to this world, but instead transformed by the renewing of his mind (Rom. 12:1-2).

 

[Contarini]

Sorry, but you’ve got your wires crossed on this one, my friend. It wasn’t me you prayed for.This is an admonishment by Paul for the redeemed to live sanctified lives while still in these unredeemed bodies, this side of glory. A life that does not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. It’s not a soteriological verse.

Everything is soteriological. Salvation is knowing God, period.

The sacrifice of Christ was an historical event which took place 2000 years ago. It’s not a “living” sacrifice, it was an historical, one time event with a beginning and an end.

Then we cannot be saved. What can a purely historical event do for us?

Your version of salvation is truncated and dry–I can’t imagine why anyone would want to believe it. Nor do you make any arguments for your view. If you want to persuade people that reality is really as dusty and dreary as you seem to think, you’d better have some pretty darn arguments. I’d almost as soon be an atheist as believe what you do.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Philthy]

To sum it up, the Holy Spirit guides those who ask for God’s help. The Holy Spirit comes from God and helps guide us because afterall, we are merely humans.

To “sum it up”: you have assumed very much and addressed very little in response to what I posted. The most glaring omission on your part is how the “guidance” that we recieve from the Holy Spirit is different from the guidance that resulted in Scripture. Thank you, though for taking the time to respond.

 

[apophasis]

Everything is soteriological. Salvation is knowing God, period.

No, there are Biblical passages that speak directly to salvation and there are passages that speak to the saved.

Then we cannot be saved. What can a purely historical event do for us?

Cause your salvation through faith in what He accomplished, "once for all."1 Pet 3:18 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Your version of salvation is truncated and dry–I can’t imagine why anyone would want to believe it. Nor do you make any arguments for your view. If you want to persuade people that reality is really as dusty and dreary as you seem to think, you’d better have some pretty darn arguments. I’d almost as soon be an atheist as believe what you do.

So be it.

In Christ, Edwin

Edwin, are you “in” the living, resurrected, glorified Christ, or still in the tomb with the sacrificed Christ? Which is it?

 

[Contarini]

No, there are Biblical passages that speak directly to salvation and there are passages that speak to the saved.

Do you disagree that salvation is to know God? I

Cause your salvation through faith in what He accomplished, "once for all."1 Pet 3:18 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;So be it.Edwin, are you “in” the living, resurrected, glorified Christ, or still in the tomb with the sacrificed Christ? Which is it?

The former. That is the point. Christ’s sacrifice is a living reality. You are making a false dichotomy between Christ’s death and His resurrection. They form a single saving act.

Edwin

 

[Cat]

apophasis,

If the sacrifice of Christ was a one-day event, then why did Christ ask his disciples to “remember” = “anamnesis” which means “to make present again” his death by eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Himself?

I just read a Protestant (Calvinist) commentary yesterday stating that we can’t box God into human “time.”

Revelation 5: 6 says that “…I saw a Lamb standing as if slain…” Past tense? I’m not sure.

 

[japhy]

Are you “in” the living, resurrected, glorified Christ, or still in the tomb with the sacrificed Christ? Which is it?

I preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block and folly for some.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Philthy]

Of course he paid for my sins but I didnt accept that truth until I was thirty. I couldnt have very well accepted it 2000 years ago since Im only 41

You keep swirling back and forth. You want to believe that Christ’s sacrifice accomplished everything it was meant to accomplish 2000 years ago. But at the same time you claim that it wasn’t effective - FOR YOU - until you accepted it in faith.
It’s very important to understand the difference - it is both a finished act and an eternal gift that operates throughout all time.
This distinction becomes especially important when you start relying on the “finished” act of Christ to accomplish - irrevocably- something in the future (ie OSAS) when that is not quite accurate.

allforhim:

When we sin we break our fellowship with God. We only have fellowship with him again when we ask for forgiveness.

Interesting - sin “breaks our fellowship” with God. God forgives us when we repent and ask for forgiveness. Do you realize that such forgiveness is the sacrifice of Christ operating in our lives again and again and again in relation to our Father? Realize, however, that if you had not repented and sought forgiveness - if you had not acted in faith - that your “fellowship with God” would not have been restored.
What would happen if someone died in an unrepentant state of broken fellowship with God?

allforhim:

He is not holding it against me which is the amazing part of it.

Here you are getting confused again. What makes you think God is not “holding it against you”? Your answer, no doubt will be the “finished” work of Christ on the Cross. Yet you yourself said that this didn’t become active until you “believed” in Jesus. Was God “holding it against you” until that time? Think hard.

Secondly, you have assumed that the only consideration is God’s “holding it against you” That is certainly important, but what is also important is that you accept God’s offer of forgiveness on His terms. If you reject God, evidenced through unrepentant sin, you choose to “break fellowship” with God. He’s still not “holding it against you” but you choose to reject the offer of Salvation procured by Christ. You need to reflect on this a little.

allforhim:

However, God does talk about discipling His children. This discipline from God is what makes us grow as christians. I dont know about you but I have been disciplined from God and it is not enjoyable, but I have learned from my mistakes and will continue to learn(we call that sanctification)

I mostly agree with all this but it would be a mistake to think that sanctification is merely a learning process. We are actually changed by God’s grace to imitate His only begotten Son. We become new creatures in Christ and put away the old things, behaviors, lusts, etc - not just the old ideas.

allforhim:

All of mankind is going to be judged by their deeds. Good and bad. So what makes the difference on which one of us is going to get into heaven because we ALL do good and bad deeds? The difference is who had faith in Christ and who didnt. If you had faith in Christ but all your deeds got burned up well I guess he/she will be getting into heaven by the skin of their teeth.

I think if you step back for a second and look at what you actually wrote youll see that it doesnt make much sense. We started with a very simple statement: those whose works are judged as good go to eternal life, those whose works are judged as bad to eternal damnation. And from that perfectly simple statement you twisted it to say: Everyone does good and bad works - that doesnt count all that counts is whether you have faith. But your conclusion directly contradicts what Scripture actually says. Scripture says that works count - big time - in determining our eternal destiny. You either cant fit that reality into your current theology and try to explain it away (subconsciously) or you simply do not want to accept it as true. I tend to believe it is the former.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block and folly for some.

It’s to bad someone like Paul couldn’t have written something like that to clear things up.

Oh wait, he did!

 

[japhy]

It’s to bad someone like Paul couldn’t have written something like that to clear things up.

Oh wait, he did!

Paul copied off my notes.

 

[mrs_abbott]

To “sum it up”: you have assumed very much and addressed very little in response to what I posted. The most glaring omission on your part is how the “guidance” that we recieve from the Holy Spirit is different from the guidance that resulted in Scripture. Thank you, though for taking the time to respond.

I’m sorry you didn’t find my “summary” satisfactory. I just didn’t want to ramble and use big words trying to explain something that could be stated very simply, but yet can’t be easily comprehended.
The guidance we receive from the Scriptures IS the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don’t see how you can separate the two.
I’m happy to respond anytime I can.

 

[mrs_abbott]

You keep swirling back and forth. You want to believe that Christ’s sacrifice accomplished everything it was meant to accomplish 2000 years ago. But at the same time you claim that it wasn’t effective - FOR YOU - until you accepted it in faith.

So what’s wrong with that? Christ Himself says that we must believe in Him to have Eternal Life? Do you not agree?

Philthy:

It’s very important to understand the difference - it is both a finished act and an eternal gift that operates throughout all time.
This distinction becomes especially important when you start relying on the “finished” act of Christ to accomplish - irrevocably- something in the future (ie OSAS) when that is not quite accurate.

But who receives this eternal gift? Just anyone off the street???

Philthy:

Interesting - sin “breaks our fellowship” with God. God forgives us when we repent and ask for forgiveness. Do you realize that such forgiveness is the sacrifice of Christ operating in our lives again and again and again in relation to our Father? Realize, however, that if you had not repented and sought forgiveness - if you had not acted in faith - that your “fellowship with God” would not have been restored.

Yes

Philthy:

What would happen if someone died in an unrepentant state of broken fellowship with God?

We don’t know. That’d be up to God to decide. We always strive to follow Christ and His teachings so that we have nothing to worry about. But also, no one is perfect and everyone stumbles at some point in their lives. We also know that God is patient and loving and is waiting for us with open arms.

Philthy:

Here you are getting confused again. What makes you think God is not “holding it against you”? Your answer, no doubt will be the “finished” work of Christ on the Cross. Yet you yourself said that this didn’t become active until you “believed” in Jesus. Was God “holding it against you” until that time? Think hard.

God is a merciful, patient and loving God. He is not vengeful. He doesn’t sit up in Heaven and wait for us to screw up so that He can take our name off of the Heaven list and clear some space and send us to Hell.
God never holds anything against us. He rewards those who are faithful to Him and follow Him.

Philthy:

Secondly, you have assumed that the only consideration is God’s “holding it against you” That is certainly important, but what is also important is that you accept God’s offer of forgiveness on His terms. If you reject God, evidenced through unrepentant sin, you choose to “break fellowship” with God. He’s still not “holding it against you” but you choose to reject the offer of Salvation procured by Christ. You need to reflect on this a little.

But that’s when we pick ourselves back up and put aside our sinful ways for the honor and glory of God.

Philthy:

I mostly agree with all this but it would be a mistake to think that sanctification is merely a learning process. We are actually changed by God’s grace to imitate His only begotten Son. We become new creatures in Christ and put away the old things, behaviors, lusts, etc - not just the old ideas.

Agreed. It’s a furthering of the learning process.

Philthy:

I think if you step back for a second and look at what you actually wrote youll see that it doesnt make much sense. We started with a very simple statement: those whose works are judged as good go to eternal life, those whose works are judged as bad to eternal damnation. And from that perfectly simple statement you twisted it to say: Everyone does good and bad works - that doesnt count all that counts is whether you have faith. But your conclusion directly contradicts what Scripture actually says. Scripture says that works count - big time - in determining our eternal destiny. You either cant fit that reality into your current theology and try to explain it away (subconsciously) or you simply do not want to accept it as true. I tend to believe it is the former.

A saving faith does works naturally on its own. A saving faith means complete trust in God and His Will for us. By wanting to serve God, we are willing to do whatever He wishes, which maybe serving others through works. We are called to use our talents and gifts in accord with God’s Will.

I know I’m not ALLFORHIM but I felt that you were missing the point of her answer. Sorry for jumping in unannounced.

 

[Philthy]

I know I’m not ALLFORHIM but I felt that you were missing the point of her answer. Sorry for jumping in unannounced.

No problem jumping in. Im sorry that most of what I wrote has missed its target.

Its important to realize that the fact that Christ died for our sins does not obviate his commandment to love one another.

Not everyone is going to heaven.

It’s important to realize that sin separates us from God.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

A saving faith does works naturally on its own.

Are you prepared to say that a lack of works means that one lacks saving faith? If not, please amend you platitude above to:
A saving faith has no relationship to works.

 

[apophasis]

Do you disagree that salvation is to know God?

I agree that those who know God are saved and they have “eternal life”:John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."But what does this have to do with Rom 12:1-2 where Paul exhorts believers to present their bodies a living and holy sacrifice?

The former. That is the point. Christ’s sacrifice is a living reality.

Actually, His sacrificial death was a, once for all, historical event which took place in this time/space continuum. It belongs to the history of mankind, the history of this world. This is true of His subsequent bodily resurrection as well. But His death on the cross is not a “living” reality (an historical reality, yes); that would be an oxymoron.

His subsequent bodily resurrection, however, is truly a living reality. This very day, this very hour, He sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high in the same body in which He died - but glorified.

But Edwin, none of this has anything to do with Rom. 12:1-2. The “living sacrifice” Paul talks about there is believers presenting their own bodies as living sacrifices, acceptable to God. He’s is not in any way referring to the cross of Christ as Phil suggests as an interpretation.

You are making a false dichotomy between Christ’s death and His resurrection. They form a single saving act.

Of course there’s a dichotomy between His death and His resurrection.Rom. 6:10 "For the death that He died He died TO SIN, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives TO GOD"Christ took upon Himself, as God’s substitutionary sin-sacrifice, all the sins of the world. And when He died He die TO them, “once for all.” He not only died “for” our sins, He also died TO them. Our sins were buried with Him and there they stayed. But He was raised to new life which He now lives “to God.”

Part of the “mystery of Christ” revealed to us by Paul (Eph. 3:1-6, 9) is that we who have truly believed in Christ were co-crucified and co-buried with Him. And just as Jesus died TO SIN, once for all, and was raised to new life, so we too have died TO SIN and are co-resurrected to new life “with Him.” Hence, our relationship “to sin” is the same as His - dead to it, but made alive to God in Him.

We are now seen by God positionally in our resurrrected Lord:Eph 2:4-7 “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”

Col 3:1-3 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.For this reason Paul exhorts us to present our yet unredeemed bodies, in which we presently live, to God as “living” sacrifices acceptable to God. IOW, we are to reflect in this body our eternal, heavenly position which is ours being now “in Christ” resurrected.

This is eternal life!

Now if you call all this “dry” and “truncated” and want nothing to do with it, then that’s your problem. But I consider it foolishness since it’s in accordance with what God has revealed concerning the true believer now “in Christ.” If these divinely, revealed truths are not true of you, then you are not truly “in Christ.”

 

[dbacks5439]

OSAS is a blank check for sin. You can sin all you want, even kill people and show no remorse whatsoever, and yet still proclaim God as King. ??? OSAS was invented by Luther to satisfy his conscience.
Even the demons believe in Jesus. Are they saved?

 

[japhy]

Are you prepared to say that a lack of works means that one lacks saving faith? If not, please amend you platitude above to:
A saving faith has no relationship to works.

Trent, sess. VI, On Justification:

For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. (Chapter VII)

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; “He that is just, let him be justified still”; and again, “Be not afraid to be justified even to death”; and also, “Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only”. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.” (Chapter X)