Interesting how you can take one scripture at face value (1 John 5:3), but other you do not. The verse does not say that those born of God cannot mortally sin. It says they cannot sin. The verses that you gave on the inability of the true believer from falling away have been contradicted by other verses in Scripture.
Saying that God predestines to Hell without consideration of sins committed makes God into a hypocrite.You are correct…
Romans 9:10-23 KJV 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I** will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion**. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Sir…WHO IS THE AUDIENCE IN LUKE 5:31-32???Continuation… Part II
This sounds like a Bill Clinton moment to me.God describes someone as being righteous but they are in fact *not *righteous? How can you be righteous in the sight of God and not righteous in His sight at the same time?
These verses have been taken out of their context:
Luke 5:30-32
30The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?"
31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
** 32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” **
The point Jesus is making is that he is not going to use his time to “preach to the choir.” In other words, when you evangelize, Linkowski, do you evangelize people that have repented and believed or do you evangelize people who have not believed. There were righteous people when Jesus walked the earth and before he incarnated.
God Bless,
Michael
But who is he talking about and what is the question he is answering? The question is why is he eating with sinners? The answer is that they are the ones that need to hear the message of repentance. A person who thinks they’re righteous but are not most definitely needs a physician because they are not whole. They may refuse the physician’s services because they are in denial, but they are not whole. Jesus clearly says those who are WHOLE (healthy) have no need of a physician. Those who have already been made righteous do not need to be spiritually healed. Those who are unrighteous need it and that is why He focuses on them. That is the point Jesus was making.
And you’re doing this in a Catholic website, not in a Calvinist webiste. That is the point I’m trying to make and Jesus is making. The righteous have no need of repentance because they have already been healed. You are not going to spend your energy on people who you know are of the elect.
Let me just add, Linkowski, that he is talking to the Pharisees and Scribes, but not about them. They are not whole and are in need of a physician. They may be in denial, but they are not whole. The only ones that have no need of repentance are those who have repented (i.e the righteous).
The Pharisees were those who justified themselves - RIGHTEOUS IN THEIR OWN EYES…Jesus was explaining why he was not hanging out with them…they simply had no need of Him (AGAIN - IN THEIR EYES). How many people think they are okay - they are good - they don’t need the gospel - or so they believe. That is the point of this text. Why go to the doctor if you do not think that you are sick? Mike, you have to be seeing this. You’re losing your credibility here.
Actually, you are losing your credibility here. What did Jesus say? “Those who are** whole **have no need of a physician.” This is the key to understanding what Jesus is trying to say. The Pharisees are obvioulsy not whole and do need a physician, though they are in denial. The Pharisees are not asking Him “why aren’t you haging out with us?” They are asking why are you hanging out with sinners. Jesus responds that sinners are the ones that need His message of repentance, not the righteous (those who have already repented and have been spiritually healed).
Yes I read it. I do not have the time to answer it the way I would like to. God “hardens” a person’s heart by withholding or withdrawing His grace. But the argument you are trying to build using this passage is contradicted by other passages.
So God is directly responsible for the sins of the non-elect? Just as he causes the elect to have faith and bear fruit in order to be saved, he causes the non-elect to sin in order to be damned?
The answer to this question should be very interesting. You’ve summed up what it that they seem to be preaching here.
Hopefully this person can come up with more than some out of context scriptural passages that defy all logic, reason and grammar.
Let’s look at this verse in its context:
I respectfully disagree.
Jesus does not mean to say that the Pharisees and the scribes do not need repentance or are perfect. He for the sake of argument accepts their claims about themselves and by their own words condemns them for their criticism of his efforts to save the lost sheep. It is the same point that he made against them when they criticized Jesus and the disciples for being at Levi’s feast ( as we mentioned in Luke 5:31-32). They posed as “righteous.” Very well, then. That shuts their mouths on the point of Christ’s saving the publicans and sinners.
The answer to this is complicated…He does not CAUSE them to sin and is not responsible for it. But, he does not effectually call them to salvation but allows them to go on in sin. The elect, however, are the called…
