O
OneForTruth
Guest
Explain to me Romans 9:10-24…I have seen nobody explain it.
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M
mikeledes
Guest
They have made no claims about themselves in the immediate context of this verse. Do you mean to tell me that the 99 sheep in the flock are the Pharisees and the Scribes and that Jesus is their shepherd?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
By the way, Jesus describes ninety nine just ones as those who have no need of repentance. You are saying that Jesus is not saying that the Pharisees do not need repentance. Therefore, if they need repentance, they cannot be the 99 just ones He is referring to.
God bless,
Michael
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
What if you understanding of these scriptures if flawed? Can your understanding be flawed?The answer to this is complicated…He does not CAUSE them to sin and is not responsible for it. But, he does not effectually call them to salvation but allows them to go on in sin. The elect, however, are the called…
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
It is only by God’s grace that they are saved at all…none of us deserve salvation…
KJV
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
NASB
Romans 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
I hope that you can see the strange paradox (or what seems to be) going on in scripture. Again, the infinite God speaking to the finite man…it is difficult to completely comprehend. But, it is explained in scripture for us - but our minds have difficulty with it. Like it or not, it is there…if you expect to fully understand the mind of God before accepting this purely biblical teaching…then you will never accept it.
Once condemned, now justified!! Praise God!
You are trusting in your own ability to COOPERATE with God’s grace…boast, my friend in this great ability you have to do so. Justification is in my past and I am being conformed to the image of Christ - being sanctified…
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering **he hath perfected for ever **them that are sanctified.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
Be careful what you are doing.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
Matthew 9:13 helps us out here a little more…
Matthew 9:13-14 KJV 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth,** I will have mercy, and not sacrifice**: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
The Pharisees sought to justify themselves through sacrifice. They thought themselves righteous through external ritual. Jesus was setting them in their place through this condemnation/statement.
Romans 10:3 KJV 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
By the way - who are these people here?
Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 ***But we are not of them ***who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
What certainty!! You did not comment on that before when I mentioned it.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Let’s look at Matthew 9:13 in context:
**10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. **
Once again Jesus explains to the Pharisees why he is eating with sinners by saying that a “whole” person does not need a physician, only the sick. The righteous are whole -having been spiritually healed - and hence have no need for a physicians. Sinners are spiritually sick and thus need a physician. In verse 13, Jesus is criticizing the lack of compassion the Pharisees showed toward sinners. That is why Jesus reminds them that God himself wants mercy and not sacrifice. In other words, the pharisees are too caught up in the ritual aspects of Judaism and lack the compassion that God says is truly the priority.
**13"But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." ** (New American Standard Bible).
This still does not mean that when Jesus says the “righteous”, he has the Pharisees in mind. As clearly indicated by the physician parable, the righteous refers to those who have already been made whole (healed) and thus have no need of repentance. The sinners, who are spiritually sick, need the physician (Jesus) to visit them and heal them by bringing them to repentance. That is why he eats with sinners. They are the ones that need to be called to repentance, not those who have already repented and are in the flock.
God Bless,
Michael
**10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. **
Once again Jesus explains to the Pharisees why he is eating with sinners by saying that a “whole” person does not need a physician, only the sick. The righteous are whole -having been spiritually healed - and hence have no need for a physicians. Sinners are spiritually sick and thus need a physician. In verse 13, Jesus is criticizing the lack of compassion the Pharisees showed toward sinners. That is why Jesus reminds them that God himself wants mercy and not sacrifice. In other words, the pharisees are too caught up in the ritual aspects of Judaism and lack the compassion that God says is truly the priority.
**13"But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." ** (New American Standard Bible).
This still does not mean that when Jesus says the “righteous”, he has the Pharisees in mind. As clearly indicated by the physician parable, the righteous refers to those who have already been made whole (healed) and thus have no need of repentance. The sinners, who are spiritually sick, need the physician (Jesus) to visit them and heal them by bringing them to repentance. That is why he eats with sinners. They are the ones that need to be called to repentance, not those who have already repented and are in the flock.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Let’s say, for argument’s sake Linkowski, that you are right regarding the verses in Luke. Let’s say that those verses refer to the Pharisees, which is highly unlikely because they are neither “whole” nor are they of the 99 sheep in the flock of the shepherd (i.e. Jesus Christ). The Pharisees are in need of a physician and of repentance, hence Jesus cannot be talking about them. Let’s look at Ezekiel 3:18-21:
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Now I ask you not to read these verses through the lenses of a Calvinist. I want you to prayerfully and carefully read these verses. God is talking about the “wicked” and the “righteous.” There is no third category of “sorta righteous” or “externally righteous.” God is speaking from His own perspective and in general, therefore the righteous referred to in these verses can only refer to those who are righteous in His sight. If they are not righteous, then they are wicked. You cannot have it both ways.
Let’s say that “righteous” can be used to refer to people who are not in fact righteous. Please show me from the text how “righteous” is being used in a way other than genuinely righteouis.
I will not be online for the weekend, but i’ll be back on Tuesday. May God richly bless you.
God Bless,
Michael
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Now I ask you not to read these verses through the lenses of a Calvinist. I want you to prayerfully and carefully read these verses. God is talking about the “wicked” and the “righteous.” There is no third category of “sorta righteous” or “externally righteous.” God is speaking from His own perspective and in general, therefore the righteous referred to in these verses can only refer to those who are righteous in His sight. If they are not righteous, then they are wicked. You cannot have it both ways.
Let’s say that “righteous” can be used to refer to people who are not in fact righteous. Please show me from the text how “righteous” is being used in a way other than genuinely righteouis.
I will not be online for the weekend, but i’ll be back on Tuesday. May God richly bless you.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
BTW, you didn’t respond to this question. How can the Pharisees be the 99 sheep Jesus is referring to? Are they members of Jesus’s flock and have no need of repentance?
God Bless,
Michael
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
I thought this fits into this thread
**This week’s promise: God is our security **
What is trust?
**Those who know your name trust in you, for you, O Lord, have never abandoned anyone who searches for you. **
Psalm 9:10 NLT
Trust involves letting go and knowing God will catch you.
James Dobson
Why Not?
Something is holding us back. Perhaps it is a fear that maybe we are wrong about God. Maybe we feel presumptuous. It is possible, if we have been disappointed in the past, that our misunderstanding is haunting us. We hear a voice in the back of our minds that says, “What if God doesn’t come through? What if he makes it more difficult than I can handle? What if all my hopes are illusions?” So we hesitate to trust God. We pray and we hope, but faith remains incomplete and doubts linger. We’ll ask Him to help us, but we withhold judgment until we’ve seen His response.
We are called to believe God with reckless abandon—not just believe that He is there and that He is involved with us somehow; but that He is actively, personally seeking our good and answering our prayers. We are to give up our own strategies and ambitions, to relinquish all “Plan Bs,” to recklessly, irrevocably cast ourselves completely into His arms.
God called Abraham to leave Haran and go to a place to be revealed later. Jesus invited Peter to step out of the boat and walk on water. That kind of call is scary, though typical in God’s Kingdom. But why is it scary? Where could He lead us that we’d regret? Would He ever lead us into danger but not out of it?
God calls us to “reckless” trust, the kind that prepares no safety net and reserves nothing for a spiritually rainy day. Try to find someone God had forsaken, observe His faithfulness, and ask yourself: "Why wouldn’t I trust Him wholeheartedly? Think about it. Why not?
Adapted from The One Year® Walk with God Devotional by Chris Tiegreen, Tyndale House Publishers (2004), entry for May 12.
**This week’s promise: God is our security **
What is trust?
**Those who know your name trust in you, for you, O Lord, have never abandoned anyone who searches for you. **
Psalm 9:10 NLT
Trust involves letting go and knowing God will catch you.
James Dobson
Why Not?
Something is holding us back. Perhaps it is a fear that maybe we are wrong about God. Maybe we feel presumptuous. It is possible, if we have been disappointed in the past, that our misunderstanding is haunting us. We hear a voice in the back of our minds that says, “What if God doesn’t come through? What if he makes it more difficult than I can handle? What if all my hopes are illusions?” So we hesitate to trust God. We pray and we hope, but faith remains incomplete and doubts linger. We’ll ask Him to help us, but we withhold judgment until we’ve seen His response.
We are called to believe God with reckless abandon—not just believe that He is there and that He is involved with us somehow; but that He is actively, personally seeking our good and answering our prayers. We are to give up our own strategies and ambitions, to relinquish all “Plan Bs,” to recklessly, irrevocably cast ourselves completely into His arms.
God called Abraham to leave Haran and go to a place to be revealed later. Jesus invited Peter to step out of the boat and walk on water. That kind of call is scary, though typical in God’s Kingdom. But why is it scary? Where could He lead us that we’d regret? Would He ever lead us into danger but not out of it?
God calls us to “reckless” trust, the kind that prepares no safety net and reserves nothing for a spiritually rainy day. Try to find someone God had forsaken, observe His faithfulness, and ask yourself: "Why wouldn’t I trust Him wholeheartedly? Think about it. Why not?
Adapted from The One Year® Walk with God Devotional by Chris Tiegreen, Tyndale House Publishers (2004), entry for May 12.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Mormons trust God is catching them too.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Yes that may be true but we all know they worship a God that is different from ours.Mormons trust God is catching them too.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
This is true. Too bad they dont know that…Yes that may be true but we all know they worship a God that is different from ours.
A
Angainor
Guest
Because I “take, eat”.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
You know I really dont think to pray for people of other religions.This is true. Too bad they dont know that…
I really need to do that more often.
I have a cousin big time into the mormon religion too.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
You know I really dont think to pray for people of other religions.
I have a cousin big time into the mormon religion too.
J
japhy
Guest
Can I ask you about the idiom of “falling on the rock of Christ and being broken”? You seem to be using it opposite the meaning from Scripture (cf. 1 Peter 2:8, Isaiah 8:14-15). Christ as a stumbling block or a rock upon which one is broken is not a “good” thing, as far as Scripture presents it.
C
clmowry
Guest
Why bother? I’m confused. I thought earlier you’ve said that God has already damned or saved those whom he will and there’s nothing we can do about it?
Chuck
Chuck
J
japhy
Guest
Not to mention it’s absolutely contradictory of God for Him to be able to ordain a person to not do His will… because then the person, by not doing God’s will (that is, disobeying God), ends up doing God’s will (that is, what God willed for him to do).
And we know that “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
- Status