Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[mikeledes]

Ezekiel 3:18-21:

**18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. **

When the word “righteous” is used in the Bible without any qualifiers (i.e. outwardly, etc.), it always refers to those who are genuinely righteous. When “righteous” is used in any other sense than righteous before God, there is always a qualifier. For example, Matthew 23:28

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (qualifiers in red)

The verse from Ezekiel 3 has no such qualifiers. Secondly, a person who is only outwardly righteous is still wicked. Therefore, the distinction made in Ezekiel 3 between the “righteous” and the “wicked” would make absolutely no sense.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Philthy]

apo:
… These Paul clearly teaches are GIFTED through faith alone.

The only ones who have no assurance of salvation are those who are trying to work for it. Scripture provides no assurance to such people. And rightly so.
]

“If you do not forgive the trespasses of others, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you yours” J Christ

Is forgiving others part of what it means to have “faith alone” in Christ? Yes or No please.

Do you know that others have stopped trespassing against you? Yes or No please

Are you not bound to forgive them throughout the remainder of your life? Yes or No please

If you willingly choose to condemn those who have trespassed against you and persist in doing so until death, will your Father in heaven forgive you your sins anyhow?

 

[Randy_Carson]

i think the answer to your question can be found in 2 Peter 1:5-10.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

The whole teaching of the scriptures is to give us this certainty not just by mere mental assent but a real dilgence as Peter lays out here.

Do you think the apostle Paul was confident that he was saved?

In asking this question, you have given me reason to suspect that you did not actually read all of my post for I provided the answer there as follows:

Paul, writing at the end of his life [said], “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Sean_Boyle]

apo:

… These Paul clearly teaches are GIFTED

through faith alone.

The only ones who have no assurance of salvation are those who are trying to work for it. Scripture provides no assurance to such people. And rightly so.
]

“If you do not forgive the trespasses of others, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you yours” J Christ

Is forgiving others part of what it means to have “faith alone” in Christ? Yes or No please.

Do you know that others have stopped trespassing against you? Yes or No please

Are you not bound to forgive them throughout the remainder of your life? Yes or No please

If you willingly choose to condemn those who have trespassed against you and persist in doing so until death, will your Father in heaven forgive you your sins anyhow?

ALSO…

Is love of God required? Is love of neighbor required? Is keeping the commands of Christ required?

 

[apophasis]

Apophasis, Jesus is talking about those who will be experiencing the persecution that Christians will experience at the end of the age. However, this “endurance to the end” is a universal principle of the Bible.

God Bless,
Michael

No it isn’t. The context is explicitly referring to the “end of the age” and the word “saved” is to be understood in its temporal sense. The universal principle for salvation (both old and new Testaments) is FAITH. In the N.T. the object of faith is the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

Again, you who reject this divine principle have no assurance of salvation. As it should be. Assurance of salvation only comes when one turns from self and trusts completely in the work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.

:tiphat:

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Again, you who object this divine principle have no assurance of salvation. As it should be. Assurance of salvation only comes when one turns from self and trusts completely in the work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.

:tiphat:

Again your principles are not divine:shrug: As it should be.

Could you be wrong? Are you infallable?

 

[Odell]

. At the time of personal faith in Christ.To be “un-reconciled” with God one must first be “reconciled” with Him. Adam and Eve were created in an innocent state, not a “reconciled” one. Through sin they fell from their innocent estate, not from a once reconciled one.

Is someone who reconciled are they considered consecrated by the blood of Christ?

If so how do you interpret this verse?

(Heb10:24-31) “Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant blood by which he was consecrated and insults the spirit of Grace.”

If one is saved by the blood of Jesus and later goes on to insult God by diminishing the power of Jesus’ blood, then the scripture says that punishment will be severe. You will become separated from God and his saving grace.

You can insult God but I choose not to

Your theology makes no sense.Where in the parable does it say that the father and son were enemies and there was need of reconciliation of the son to his father?

(Lk Ch 15:21) I have sined against heaven and against you I no longer deserve to be called your son."

when we sin we need to be reconciled:thumbsup:

Vs 24 this son of mine was DEAD and has come to life again he was LOST and has been found."

what does it mean to be DEAD and LOST?
bet you want answer that question

Where in the Genesis record does it say Adam and Eve received “grace?”

OK im really interested in YOUR definition of GRACE:coffeeread:

This is a general teaching addressed to “Gentiledom” which has now been given the gospel message of Christ and who stand only in their faith.Rom. 11:20 "Quite right, they (Israel) were broken off for their unbelief and you (Gentiles) stand only by your faith"And these Jesus said He NEVER knew.

(YOU) gentiles who stand by there faith they are save right?
ok well read how silly your interpritation sounds

(Romens 11:20-22) "that is so they were broken off because of unbelife, but YOU are ther because of faith. So do not become haughty but stand in awe. for if God did not spare the natural branches he will not spare YOU either. See then the kindness and severity of God severity towards those who fell but Gods kindness to YOU, provided YOU remain in his kindness otherwise YOU too will be cut off.

Im guessing this YOU is no longer the Gentiles that are aved by there faith. Because it says they can be cut off.

Could you please explain how you seem to think in the next verse it is talking about a different YOU?

I dont expect you to answer that either but it reasures me

The only ones who have no assurance of salvation are those who are trying to work for it. Scripture provides no assurance to such people. And rightly so.

See now you are insulting us I know you know we dont try to work our way into heaven.

 

[Odell]

Again, you who reject this divine principle have no assurance of salvation. As it should be. Assurance of salvation only comes when one turns from self and trusts completely in the work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.

:tiphat:

Could you please tell me and other Catholics why doing what God ask of us in the bible is not trusting completely in Jesus. It is because of Jesus that we do what we do get it threw your skull:banghead:

hey I would show more charity but it wouldnt matter to you because you wouldnt belive it would be comeing from Jesus but from me. And you dont seem to care anything of what we say.

(Jms 2:8) I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works."
THAT’S WHAT CATHOLICS LIKE TO DO! But yet for some reason you have a problem with us doing what the bible clearly wants us to do. And you are really making it hard for me to do the same.

Ill pray for the both of us.

 

[OneForTruth]

Now, St. Augustine (who was trying to combat a specific heresy at the time, a heresy that St. Paul never had to address) took what Paul wrote here and applied it to the individual. Paul is not doing this. Paul is merely speaking about Jews (i.e., natural members of the Chosen People) and Gentiles as general principals for who can belong to the Covenant and why. What Paul is saying is that both Jews and Gentiles are saved solely by God’s mysterious grace, and not because someone happens to be born a Jew- a member of the Chosen People. Just as Esau was born first, but was not selected to inherit the Covenant, so the Jews have no exclusive claim to the Covenant of salvation since God has chosen to extend this Covenant to Gentiles as well. Paul was not addressing Pelagianism, and could not address Pelagianism because that heresy had not yet arisen.
continued. . .

Your argument is flawed and does not hold water in light of context. I will specifically reference Rom 9:24…

Romans 9:24 KJV 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The whole context is surrounding God’s word - has it failed because Israel has been blinded…

Romans 9:6-8 KJV 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The remnant was saved - this was the point of God’s word going forth; that the elect of Israel indeed would be saved…the individuals that would be saved within corporate Israel. Just as, now, the elect within the church that were chosen will be saved - as Romans 9:24 - those chosen OUT FROM the Gentiles.

Not only that - we, as Christians, and not some special elect group of Christians, are to make certain of our calling and election…

2 Peter 1:10 NAS95 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

This - again - that scripture furthers the idea of individual election…

Other language is certain…

John 17:2 KJV 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Ephesians 1:4-6 KJV 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Acts 16:14 NAS95 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; **and the Lord opened her heart to respond **to the things spoken by Paul.

Acts 13:48 NAS95 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Your interpretation is a twisting of God’s word…be careful. Lord, may you open the eyes of those who have erred…and keep me from this error I pray. Amen

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Your interpretation is a twisting of God’s word…be careful. Lord, may you open the eyes of those who have erred…and keep me from this error I pray. Amen

Heed your own advice…

our prayer for you as well. It’s work a couple of times already.

 

[apophasis]

Could you please tell me and other Catholics why doing what God ask of us in the bible is not trusting completely in Jesus. It is because of Jesus that we do what we do get it threw your skull:banghead:

If you want assurance of salvation then you Catholics must trust only in what He accomplished FOR YOU. God provides no assurance of salvation apart from Christ’s redemptive work, alone! To personally trust in His work, alone, is “saving faith.”

(Jms 2:8) I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works." THAT’S WHAT CATHOLICS LIKE TO DO!

It’s more than merely a demonstration of faith. It’s been demonstrated over and over again in many posts on this forum that Catholics believe “what Catholics do” merits their salvation. However, there can be no assurance of salvation through that kind of “faith.” As it should be.

God has ordained that salvation, and the assurance of it, is through faith in Christ, alone. Any works on our part must result in fear of condemnation.

But yet for some reason you have a problem with us doing what the bible clearly wants us to do.

Actually, you seem to have a problem with what God wants you “to do” for salvation - which essentially is nothing, accept believe what Christ has done, perfectly and completely, FOR YOU.

Assurance comes only with such simple, abiding faith. The object of “saving faith” being Jesus Christ, alone.

According to the Bible, men are to turn from self and trust completely in the One whom God has sent. “This is the work of God…” (Jn. 5:29). Salvation, then, being completely the “work of God.”

What Catholics are required to do is no different than what is divinely requred of all men: to believe in what God has done through Christ, alone.

 

[FCEGM]

Your argument is flawed and does not hold water in light of context. I will specifically reference Rom 9:24…

Romans 9:24 KJV 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The whole context is surrounding God’s word - has it failed because Israel has been blinded…

Romans 9:6-8 KJV 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The remnant was saved - this was the point of God’s word going forth; that the elect of Israel indeed would be saved…the individuals that would be saved within corporate Israel.

I’m sorry, but my argument does hold water, and the verses that you quote support it. Paul is speaking collectively about the true Covenant people. This Covenant People includes both Jew and Gentiles – equally, for both are saved by the Covenant of Grace, and not by observing the Mosaic Law, that is, not by being a Jew. This was Paul’s point that being a Jew (observing the Law) is not enough to save anyone; rather, one must belong to the Covenant of Jesus Christ. You obviously do not understand either St. Paul - or me, however.

Just as, now, the elect within the church that were chosen will be saved - as Romans 9:24 - those chosen OUT FROM the Gentiles.

Again, you are misapplying Paul’s teaching and distorting my original point. My point is that Paul is speaking of “the elect” in a collective sense, not in the sense of each and every individual. He’s referring to membership in the true Chosen People of God, which God holds open to everyone. Either one is truly a member of this Chosen People (the Church - the true Israel), or one is not, and this of course applies to both ancient Jewish Christians and to modern Gentile Christians. I am not saying otherwise. But to see what Paul is really saying (how he is speaking in a collective sense), one must return to the original 1st Century context - the issues that Paul is really dealing with - and not apply modern Calvinism or even 4th Century Augustinian theology to Paul’s statements.

Paul is addressing a dynamic of 1st Century Pharisaic Judaism. The Pharisees (the name of their sect meant “set apart”) considered themselves to be the only “true Jews.” This was because they were (as they saw it) given God’s grace to observe the Mosaic Law properly, whereas other Jews (regular Joe-blows like Simon Peter, etc.) did not have the grace to keep the Law properly, but fell short of it; and even worse than these regular Joe-blow Jews were the Gentiles, who were totally “unclean” (and unrighteous) because they did not keep the Law at all. Into this Jewish mentality, Paul is bringing so-called “unclean” Gentiles into the Church and claiming that they are full members of the Covenant with all Jews. The Jewish Christians who came from the Pharisees (see Acts 15:5) had a very hard time accepting this. As they saw it, God had chosen them (the “true Jews”) to be the Chosen People. They, apart from everyone else, were “the elect.” “The elect” were those who kept the Mosaic Law properly, and this is how one (supposedly) distinguishes between who is of “the elect” (the Chosen People) and who is not - who is “outside” of God’s grace.

Paul disputes this mentality, saying that God’s grace is extended to everybody, to all the Gentiles of the world, not merely to the Jews. He is saying that the Covenant, the “Chosen People”, is bigger than the Jews imagine it to be; and it is held together by faith in Christ, not in observing the Mosaic Law, so as to be a “true Jew.” A “true Israelite” is someone who belongs to Christ and is a faithful member of His Church (see Gal. 3:29 and 6:16). This is what Paul is referring to in Rom. 9:24, the idea that the Gentiles too are included in the Covenant of Christ along with Jewish believers in Christ. Notice how, in v. 24, Paul includes himself. He says: “namely, US whom He has called, not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles.” Ah! But, Paul himself was not a Gentile, but a Jew! He thus speaks of the whole collective.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

Now, since Paul begins with the mentality of the Pharisees (who saw themselves as the only true Jews, the only REAL members of Israel), he continues with this idea, applying it to the elect within the Church. For, just as in the view of the Pharisees, Israel consisted of Jews who were “true Jews” (who really observed the Law) and “less-than-true-Jews” (who did not observe the Law fully or properly, and so whose righteousness and “election” was suspect), a similar dynamic applies to the Church, that is, a distinction between true Christians who are really committed to Jesus Christ, and nominal Christians who merely claim to be Christian, but are not (e.g. Jesus’ parable of the weeds among the wheat). In this sense, one may speak of “the elect” apart from the non-elect.

But, Paul never applies this to individuals, and he never claims that God is arbitrarily determining who will go to Heaven and who will go to hell. This is not what Paul is saying at all. Rather, he is merely speaking in a collective sense (i.e., some are in the Covenant and some are outside the Covenant), and all he is saying is that some have received the grace to belong to the true Chosen People (the Church) and some have not. This does not mean that God has withheld grace from them. It just means that they have not received the grace, and so are not of the Elect because of that - because they are not in the Church. This is because they are not able to receive the grace that God wills to give everyone (1 Tim. 2:4).

Not only that - we, as Christians, and not some special elect group of Christians, are to make certain of our calling and election… 2 Peter 1:10 NAS95 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

This, again, merely refers to membership in the Church. It does not automatically guarantee that a Christian will remain faithful to the end. This is why Peter speaks about “never stumbling” as long as they practice the true Faith. See also 1 Cor. 9:27 & 10:12, and 2 Peter 2:20-22.

This - again - that scripture furthers the idea of individual election…

There is no reference to individuals here. That’s all in your imagination. Peter is addressing the churches of Asia collectively (see 1 Peter 1:1).

Other language is certain… John 17:2 KJV 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

A prayer for the Church - collectively.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

Ephesians 1:4-6 KJV 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This too is a collective statement. Paul is speaking about the Church (see Eph. 2:19-22).

Acts 16:14 NAS95 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Yes, she was converted to Christ. This does not mean that she was automatically predestined for heaven, for the same book of Acts also describes a similar experience for Simon Magus in Acts 8:9-13. Verse 13 says that Simon Magus “BELIEVED” and was Baptized. But he later fell away and was condemned by Peter (Acts 8:18-24).

Acts 13:48 NAS95 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Another collective reference. Acts is contrasting the fact that these Gentiles believed whereas the local Jews did not. The Gentiles received the grace to enter the Church, whereas the Jews refused because they did not possess this grace. That’s all the verse is saying.

Your interpretation is a twisting of God’s word…be careful. Lord, may you open the eyes of those who have erred…and keep me from this error I pray. Amen

I’m sorry, but it is you who are following Calvin’s 16th Century reading of Scripture and force-fitting the intended 1st Century context into a preconceived Calvinist mode. This is the problem. You need to return to the 1st Century understanding if you wish to read Scripture correctly and honestly. You are projecting your preconceived notions into Scripture, and this is an error. I hope that you will come to see this.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

If you want assurance of salvation then you Catholics must trust only in what He accomplished FOR YOU. God provides no assurance of salvation apart from Christ’s redemptive work, alone! To personally trust in His work, alone, is "saving faith."It’s more than merely a demonstration of faith. It’s been demonstrated over and over again in many posts on this forum that Catholics believe “what Catholics do” merits their salvation. However, there can be no assurance of salvation through that kind of “faith.” As it should be.

God has ordained that salvation, and the assurance of it, is through faith in Christ, alone. Any works on our part must result in fear of condemnation.Actually, you seem to have a problem with what God wants you “to do” for salvation - which essentially is nothing, accept believe what Christ has done, perfectly and completely, FOR YOU.

Assurance comes only with such simple, abiding faith. The object of “saving faith” being Jesus Christ, alone.

According to the Bible, men are to turn from self and trust completely in the One whom God has sent. “This is the work of God…” (Jn. 5:29). Salvation, then, being completely the “work of God.”

What Catholics are required to do is no different than what is divinely requred of all men: to believe in what God has done through Christ, alone.

It’s just not clicking into place for you is it.

Catholic’s are people of faith. No point in calling ourself Catholic if you have no faith. I don’t know how that can be made more clear. The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, no point in asking who we believe in is there?

Our works come from God and show God working through us and our faith. God working through a people of faith, why is that so hard to understand?

God has been working through and guiding the Catholic Church since it’s begining at Pentecost. Your somewhat odd understanding of salvation still comes to you through the Catholic Church, God working thru the Catholic Church. Like it or not.

Your understanding of scripture is not infallable! The sooner you understand that, the better off you’ll be.

 

[apophasis]

Our works come from God and show God working through us and our faith. God working through a people of faith, why is that so hard to understand?

But “saving faith” rests in Christ’s redemptive work alone. God saves no one on the basis of any other work - that’s why salvation is “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8). God is not working through you to save you. He saves you when you put your faith in Christ alone. And for this reason salvation is assured. That’s why there is such a thing as “saving faith.”

The faith through which God saves turns from self and trusts completely in what Christ has done. The assurance of my salvation, my justification, is an empty tomb:Rom 4:21- 5:2 "…and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification (the significance of an empty tomb).

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Assurance comes only when we trust in Him alone. Turn to self in any way, and assurance flees, even for the saved.

 

[mikeledes]

No it isn’t. The context is explicitly referring to the “end of the age” and the word “saved” is to be understood in its temporal sense. The universal principle for salvation (both old and new Testaments) is FAITH. In the N.T. the object of faith is the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

Again, you who reject this divine principle have no assurance of salvation. As it should be. Assurance of salvation only comes when one turns from self and trusts completely in the work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.

:tiphat:

Interesting interpretation of that verse. This is one of the verses used to support the final priniciple of TULIP, namely, perseverance of the saints. But I’ll use one of Linkowski’s favorite verses in order to reaffirm the fact that perseverance to the end is a universal principle, not just something that only applies to those who are living at the end of the age:

Hebrews 3:14

14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Odell]

apophasis Im going to list these quetions out for you by number. I know you have a hard time answering these questions. But I need a response from a bible christian after all you should know the answers so provided them if you have it.

If you want assurance of salvation then you Catholics must trust only in what He accomplished FOR YOU.

actually Ive never been more assured than now knowing I have the fullness of truth in the Chruch he founded.

But I admit that I could falter. Im runing the good race but I can stumble.

(1 Pet 1:9) “As you attain the goal of your faith, salvation of your souls.” If we are saved once, saved forever, do we need to continue striving toward a goal? We must continue the journey because, even though one might find Christ at a single point in time, it is important to deepen the faith and strengthen the relationship in order to remain in Christ.

#1 Whats yoiur goal?

(Heb 3:12-14) “We have become partners of Christ (Saved) if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end.” Why do we have to hold it firm? We are saved.

#2 what does it mean to be a partner of Christ?

(Heb 12:1) “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.”

#3 what race are you running

God provides no assurance of salvation apart from Christ’s redemptive work, alone!

:banghead:
AMEN

To personally trust in His work, alone,

:banghead:
AMEN

"saving faith."It’s more than merely a demonstration of faith.
:banghead:
AMEN

It’s been demonstrated over and over again in many posts on this forum that Catholics believe “what Catholics do” merits their salvation. However, there can be no assurance of salvation through that kind of “faith.” As it should be.

(Gal 5:6) “only faith working through love counts for anything.” That is how we put faith in action, WORKING through love. Faith has to work to count for anything; it cannot be by itself.

but we are not meriting our salvation we are just making our faith count. otherwise you are dead.

Any works on our part must result in fear of condemnation

CONTRADICTION

#4Do you really work out of fear of condemnation?

I thought you could not be condemnd

You must not fully trust in Christ redemptive work.

also if you have to work so you are not condemnd you dont have faith alone.

.Actually, you seem to have a problem with what God wants you “to do” for salvation - which essentially is nothing, accept believe what Christ has done, perfectly and completely, FOR YOU.

(Mt 3:10) “…every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

I know what God wants me to do.

You have a problem with letting me do it

Salvation, then, being completely the “work of God.”

Salvation is the work of God we have the great opportunity to participate in it. Thats why I love my faith!

What Catholics are required to do is no different than what is divinely requred of all men: to believe in what God has done through Christ, alone.

Actually we are not called just tjo believe we are called to evangelise to feed the hungry to welcome the stranger clothe the naked

Question that I knew you would not answer from one of my jpost you skiped just before this one you responded too.

#5 If so how do you interpret this verse?

(Heb10:24-31) “Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant blood by which he was consecrated and insults the spirit of Grace.”

If one is saved by the blood of Jesus and later goes on to insult God by diminishing the power of Jesus’ blood, then the scripture says that punishment will be severe. You will become separated from God and his saving grace.

#6 what does it mean to be DEAD and LOST?

(Lk Ch 15:21) I have sined against heaven and against you I no longer deserve to be called your son."

when we sin we need to be reconciled

Vs 24 this son of mine was DEAD and has come to life again he was LOST and has been found."

#7 OK im really interested in YOUR definition of GRACE

continued…

 

[Odell]

#8(YOU) gentiles who stand by there faith they are save right?
ok well read how silly your interpritation sounds

(Romens 11:20-22) "that is so they were broken off because of unbelife, but YOU are ther because of faith. So do not become haughty but stand in awe. for if God did not spare the natural branches he will not spare YOU either. See then the kindness and severity of God severity towards those who fell but Gods kindness to YOU, provided YOU remain in his kindness otherwise YOU too will be cut off.

Im guessing this YOU is no longer the Gentiles that are aved by there faith. Because it says they can be cut off.
**
#9Could you please explain how you seem to think in the next verse it is talking about a different YOU?**

You would help your credibility you you could answer these questions.

But will see.

 

[mikeledes]

#8(YOU) gentiles who stand by there faith they are save right?
ok well read how silly your interpritation sounds

(Romens 11:20-22) "that is so they were broken off because of unbelife, but YOU are ther because of faith. So do not become haughty but stand in awe. for if God did not spare the natural branches he will not spare YOU either. See then the kindness and severity of God severity towards those who fell but Gods kindness to YOU, provided YOU remain in his kindness otherwise YOU too will be cut off.

Im guessing this YOU is no longer the Gentiles that are aved by there faith. Because it says they can be cut off.
**
#9Could you please explain how you seem to think in the next verse it is talking about a different YOU?**

You would help your credibility you you could answer these questions.

But will see.

It is quite clear that Paul is talking to and about Gentile Christians for only Gentile Christians can stand by their faith and even be grafted in the olive tree. If the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief, how can unbelieving Gentiles be grafted in? And how can you be “cut off” if you were never “grafted in” in the first place? How can the “you” in verse 20 (i.e. stand by your faith) be different from the “you” in verse 22? That absolutely makes no sense.

God Bless,
Michael