Evangelicals: How do you know you have "Saving Faith"?

[Sean_Boyle]

But “saving faith” rests in Christ’s redemptive work alone. What is the importance of the word “Alone” you’ve used everywhere.

Again, Catholics are a people of faith. You have your beliefs because of the Catholic Church.God saves no one on the basis of any other work - that’s why salvation is “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8). You’ve been corrected to faithful Catholic understanding on this belief of yours several times. God is not working through you to save you. No, God is working thru many of us to bring you to a deeper understanding of the christian life. You must work out you salvation with fear and trembling, whose idea was that… He saves you when you put your faith in Christ alone. And live according; a life that mirrors the examples of Christ. Remember a true christian does not identify themselves as christian because they have faith alone. The title does not come that easy. You are called to live a Christ like life ie christian .And for this reason salvation is assured. That’s why there is such a thing as “saving faith.” Saving faith is determined at the day of your judgement by God not before. God judges saving faith, not us. Couldn’t you have fit an “alone” in that statement somewhere.

The faith through which God saves turns from self and trusts completely in what Christ has done. The assurance of my salvation, my justification, is an empty tomb: Paul preaches a cruxified ChristRom 4:21- 5:2 "…and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification (the significance of an empty tomb).

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Assurance comes only when we trust in Him alone. There it is, I was wondering when that was coming. Turn to self in any way, and assurance flees, even for the saved. Believe it or not, your right in this last sentence. The point needs to be made that turning to self does not cut you off from God the Father completely just as in the parable of the prodical son. The son returns of his own free will with a penitent heart and is recieved by the father.

Turning away from self is the reason most people become Catholic in the first place. It’s a protestant criticism that Catholic’s can’t “think for themselves”. Since Christ is the head of the Church that funny comment is oddly true in a sense. We think of Christ and not of our selves. We are guided by Christ to do God’s will. Being a faithful Catholic, means that you no longer live according to self.

 

[apophasis]

Interesting interpretation of that verse. This is one of the verses used to support the final priniciple of TULIP, namely, perseverance of the saints. But I’ll use one of Linkowski’s favorite verses in order to reaffirm the fact that perseverance to the end is a universal principle, not just something that only applies to those who are living at the end of the age:

Hebrews 3:14

**14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end **the confidence we had at first.

God Bless,
Michael

Calvinists would see this verse, and other exhortations like it, as a confirmation, or, authentication, a validation of a saving faith. Not a condition FOR it (salvation) to be awarded at the end of one’s life.

It’s not the “holding firmly to the end” that saves. God Himself saves, perfectly, at the time of faith in Christ alone.

Those who are saved, justified and regenerated by the Holy Spirit will continually outwardly manifest, in various degrees, their faith.

Salvation, therefore, is not a process, but as Scripture clearly states: a divine gift.

 

[OneForTruth]

This too is a collective statement. Paul is speaking about the Church (see Eph. 2:19-22).

Yes, she was converted to Christ. This does not mean that she was automatically predestined for heaven, for the same book of Acts also describes a similar experience for Simon Magus in Acts 8:9-13. Verse 13 says that Simon Magus “BELIEVED” and was Baptized. But he later fell away and was condemned by Peter (Acts 8:18-24).

Another collective reference. Acts is contrasting the fact that these Gentiles believed whereas the local Jews did not. The Gentiles received the grace to enter the Church, whereas the Jews refused because they did not possess this grace. That’s all the verse is saying.

I’m sorry, but it is you who are following Calvin’s 16th Century reading of Scripture and force-fitting the intended 1st Century context into a preconceived Calvinist mode. This is the problem. You need to return to the 1st Century understanding if you wish to read Scripture correctly and honestly. You are projecting your preconceived notions into Scripture, and this is an error. I hope that you will come to see this.

Wow - that was a long posting! So…who are those vessels of wrath and why are they vessels of wrath?

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

How does Pharaoh and Esau fit into this “group of wrath”? It seems to me they were individuals chosen as such (vessels of wrath) “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand”…Was it something that Esau did on his own that cuased him to be one of the vessels of wrath?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Eternal Security or “Once Saved, Always Saved”

Protestant challenges in blue. Catholic responses in black.

Acts 2:21
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Matthew 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 1:9
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

John 20:21-23
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus has given the authority to forgive and retain sins. How does one know that his sins are forgiven when he confesses them to God alone?

John 6:37
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 10:27-29
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 11:22
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 10:26-29
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Matthew 24:13
13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Phillipians 2:12
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Paul, writing at the end of his life said,

2 Timothy 4:6-8
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his state at that time, he wrote,

1 Corinthians 4:4
I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me.

In that same letter, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away at some point in the future:

1 Corinthians 9:27
I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Any ONE of these verses would be sufficient to disprove the false “tradition of men” known as “eternal security”, but the presence of so many scriptures which teach that salvation can be lost dispels this heresy completely.

It matters not a whit as to the number of verses are piled up in favor of OSAS; the Bible itself declares the doctrine to be false regardless of how desperately those who misinterpret the Bible wish for it to be true.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Odell]

Those who are saved, justified and regenerated by the Holy Spirit will continually outwardly manifest, in various degrees, their faith.

**

9 what happens if you dont? After all you dotn HAVE too.**​

Salvation, therefore, is not a process, but as Scripture clearly states: a divine gift.

You mean that is your fallible interpritation there is no reason why I should except your new concept of what scripture says

exspecially since you have really lost all crediblity to me because you cant answer my simple biblical questions.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Salvation, therefore, is not a process, but as Scripture clearly states: a divine gift.

One more time, with feeling:

Salvation is a divine gift. It is also a process as the Bible clearly states.

Salvation as a past event

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Ephesians 2:4-5)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Salvation as an ongoing activity

---

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9)

Salvation as a future event

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Romans 5:9-10)

And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11)

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)

A general summary of salvation, highlighting its past, present and future dimensions, would go something like this: “Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues for the rest of his life, and is completed when he stands before God in judgment.” This summary allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the biblical data by saying, in faith and hope, “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” It embraces all three dimensions of salvation that are present in the Bible.

 

[captaincoog]

Ahh, such a simple question for an Evangelical to answer. It’s so obvious to know if you have “Saving Faith”.

So why are we up to post #325??

 

[apophasis]

**

9 what happens if you dont?**​

Nothing. One is not saved by his own works but by divine grace through faith in the Person and work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.

After all you dotn HAVE too.

Yes, we don’t “HAVE to.” That’s the beauty of true salvation. We’re not required to do anything except believe. What we do after we’re gifted salvation is out of love, not law. And what we do will be evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ and if revealed valuable, rewarded (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But salvation itself is a gift, not a reward. This basic divinely revealed truth is the difference between a Biblical faith and man-made religion. The former trusts entirely in the work of Another, the latter in its own.

You mean that is your fallible interpritation there is no reason why I should except your new concept of what scripture says exspecially since you have really lost all crediblity to me because you cant answer my simple biblical questions.

When did I ever have credibility with you? If I would have answered your “simple questions” you would have responded the same simple way as above: “That’s your fallible interpretation.”

 

[mikeledes]

Calvinists would see this verse, and other exhortations like it, as a confirmation, or, authentication, a validation of a saving faith. Not a condition FOR it (salvation) to be awarded at the end of one’s life

Precisely! Perseverance to the end for the Calvinist is a sign of one’s election. The point I was trying to make was that the verse you say refers to only “temporal” salvation has always been used as evidence of the perseverance of the saints. In other words, this verse expresses a universal principle, not just someting that strictly applies to the end of the age.

Salvation is our inheritance as children of God!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

A general summary of salvation, highlighting its past, present and future dimensions, would go something like this: “Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues for the rest of his life, and is completed when he stands before God in judgment.” This summary allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the biblical data by saying, in faith and hope, “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” It embraces all three dimensions of salvation that are present in the Bible.

And, ultimately, denies the cross of Christ and claims personal merit as the means and basis for one’s final salvation. :tiphat:

 

[apophasis]

Precisely! Perseverance to the end for the Calvinist is a sign of one’s election. The point I was trying to make was that the verse you say refers to only “temporal” salvation has always been used as evidence of the perseverance of the saints. In other words, this verse expresses a universal principle, not just someting that strictly applies to the end of the age.

I didn’t say “temporal salvaton.” I said “saved” there is to be understood in a “temporal” sense. It’s not saying God will save (redeem) the one who perseveres (endures) to the end.

My point still remains. No one, not even Calvinists, can use that verse as a proof text for “perseverence of the saints.” No one is ever saved through perseverence (ask Peter). Salvation is not a process, it’s a gift.

Salvation is our inheritance as children of God!

Eternal life is our inheritance. An inheritance is given when a death occurs. Christ died and it’s His resurrection life that is inherited immediately at the time one believes in Him:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

 

[Sean_Boyle]

But salvation itself is a gift, not a reward. This basic divinely revealed truth is the difference between a Biblical faith and man-made religion.

Salvation is both a gift and a reward as revealed by divine scripture.

The question then becomes are you Catholic or of a man made religion?? God give you that choice.

The question: is your understanding of scripture, perfect and infallable. Why should anyone believe you over what the Holy Spirit has revealed to anyone else?? Or over what Holy Spirit reveals thru the Catholic Church??? Was there a system set up in the bible to resolve disagreements like this??? Or are we left to flounder as we are.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, we don’t “HAVE to.” That’s the beauty of true salvation. We’re not required to do anything except believe. What we do after we’re gifted salvation is out of love, not law. And what we do will be evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ and if revealed valuable, rewarded (1 Cor. 3:10-15). "

Very interesting. Especially in light of the follwoing verses:

Hebrews 12:14
**14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. **

How do we pursue sanctification?

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for f you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

Once justified, we are required - obligated - to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Revelation 2:26

** 26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;**

John 8:21

**51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Odell]

Originally Posted by apophasis
Those who are saved, justified and regenerated by the Holy Spirit will continually outwardly manifest, in various degrees, their faith.

CONTRADICTION

Nothing. One is not saved by his own works but by divine grace through faith in the Person and work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.Yes, we **don’t “HAVE **to.” That’s the beauty of true salvation. We’re not required to do anything except believe.

obviously you agree that those who do not do good works are not saved. But you also say that if your saved you dont have to do them. But if you dont have them your not saved. you can only conclude that you dotn know what your talking about.

What we do after we’re gifted salvation is out of love,

If you dont have love you dont have God. Thats why we must love Love is greater than faith dont you forget that. After all Catholic agree with you here.

The former trusts entirely in the work of Another, the latter in its own.

:banghead:

**#10 are you telling me that by doing the will of God is not trusting in the work of God?

#11 are you dening the fact that it is God who does the working?**

When did I ever have credibility with you? If I would have answered your “simple questions” you would have responded the same simple way as above: “That’s your fallible interpretation.”

You lost credibilty when you egnore my questions thanking I was just going to forget about it. you have alot of catching up to do.

The problem is you have answered evry other question and that response has not stoped you before. could it be you really dont have an answer?

be honest you dont answer because you cant answer them if you had an answer you would. God knows if you had an answer you would take the oportunity to prove that the questions are easly refutable.

mikeldes I like your question Im going to add it to my list. I know he will never answer the questions. Because they prove him wrong.

Very interesting. Especially in light of the follwoing verses:

Hebrews 12:14
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

# 12 How do we pursue sanctification?

 

[japhy]

Hebrews 12:14
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

How do we pursue sanctification?

Indeed. And why would we have to pursue it if it is part-and-parcel with the whole “salvation” we receive as soon as we believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[mikeledes]

I didn’t say “temporal salvaton.” I said “saved” there is to be understood in a “temporal” sense. It’s not saying God will save (redeem) the one who perseveres (endures) to the end.

My point still remains. No one, not even Calvinists, can use that verse as a proof text for “perseverence of the saints.” No one is ever saved through perseverence (ask Peter). Salvation is not a process, it’s a gift.Eternal life is our inheritance. An inheritance is given when a death occurs. Christ died and it’s His resurrection life that is inherited immediately at the time one believes in Him:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

The children of God, apophasis, are heirs. An heir, by definition, has not taken possessio of his inheritance yet. Prince Charles is the heir to the British throne. He ceases to be an heir when he becomes King (actually possesses the throne). Our inheritance is the kingdom of God, the consummation of our present participation in the life of God, and we will possess this inheritance (i.e. “inherit”) after we have been judged:

Galatians 5:21

21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 25:31, 34

**31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

We will inherit this kingdom after we have endured and done the will of God.

Hebrews 10:38

36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

And what has been promised?

Hebrews 9:15

15) … those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Revelation 21:7
**7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. **

Salvation in its future tense refers to the inheriting - actual possession of the kingdom.

Hebrews 1:14

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

Notice that it says will inherit, not have inherited.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Indeed. And why would we have to pursue it if it is part-and-parcel with the whole “salvation” we receive as soon as we believe in Jesus Christ?

The point being made is that the whole “salvation comes, as soon as we believe” is not biblical. It is a process that takes your whole life from birth to natural death and judgement by God.

 

[japhy]

The point being made is that the whole “salvation comes, as soon as we believe” is not biblical. It is a process that takes your whole life from birth to natural death and judgement by God.

Yes, I know. I was trying to show how “pursing sanctification” is redundant if there’s no need to actually pursue it.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Yes, I know. I was trying to show how “pursing sanctification” is redundant if there’s no need to actually pursue it.

Your right My fault