Evangelicals/mega-churches....

[JHow]

I am very intrigued by mega-churches. When I was a protestant, I lived in a small town - no mega-church of any kind. Having been Catholic for anumber of years, a mega-church is not an option. Perhaps one day I’ll get invited to a wedding or funeral or somesuch. My colleague belongs to the local mega-church. She says the worship service is more “dynamic” than where they went before. I think this means the music is more contemporary and exciting.

 

[manualman]

Catholics have no business being smug about the superiority of the mass versus mega-praise services.

1. We received it, we didn’t invent it. It’s silly to be smug about a gift you’ve received.
2. Fully 1/3 of the members of mega-churches around here were raised catholic. You can’t say they just don’t know any better. They experienced life in a catholic parish and rejected it. Even less reason to be smug. We’ve received the most fantastic gift in the universe and in many cases bungled it so badly that an awful lot of people traded it in for foot-tapping music!

We live in a culture that idolizes emotion. FEELING happy, healthy and secure is practically our national identity. Evangelical churches emphasize feeling close to God, in the way they pray, the way they sing, preach, and socialize (fellowship).

This is also a large part of why such places often have such a transitory membership roster. Emotion has lousy staying power.

 

[ltwin]

I am very intrigued by mega-churches. When I was a protestant, I lived in a small town - no mega-church of any kind. Having been Catholic for anumber of years, a mega-church is not an option. Perhaps one day I’ll get invited to a wedding or funeral or somesuch. My colleague belongs to the local mega-church. She says the worship service is more “dynamic” than where they went before. I think this means the music is more contemporary and exciting.

It isn’t just the music (I would assume). It probably also includes the preaching. Most megachurches have really good preachers.

 

[JHow]

It isn’t just the music (I would assume). It probably also includes the preaching. Most megachurches have really good preachers.

Good point. I gather the sermons area also likely longer than the average catholic homily. Some priests are great homilists, too, BTW. In my parish we draw on some “auxiliary” pastors whose day jobs are teaching at a seminary. They put a lot of thought into their homilies, and it shows.

I can see how, in a mega-church, the pastor can be a large part of the “attraction”, as it were.

 

[ltwin]

Good point. I gather the sermons area also likely longer than the average catholic homily. Some priests are great homilists, too, BTW. In my parish we draw on some “auxiliary” pastors whose day jobs are teaching at a seminary. They put a lot of thought into their homilies, and it shows.

I can see how, in a mega-church, the pastor can be a large part of the “attraction”, as it were.

I wasn’t saying that priests weren’t good at preaching, only that a lot of megachurches became megachurches during the pastorate of their founding pastor. In those cases, it is the founding pastor’s dynamism and vision that attract a lot of people.

 

[JustaServant]

It isn’t just the music (I would assume). It probably also includes the preaching. Most megachurches have really good preachers.

Not necessarily.
When I was Protestant I came across many mega-churches whose congregations were there primarily for the music, while the preachers were mediocre at best.
In my office I overheard a young evangelical invite another to church saying ‘they just spent nearly a million dollars on their sound system!!!’

Even as an evangelical I could never figure out the appeal of Joel Osteen.

 

[Cat]

The megachurches that I’m familiar with don’t have a live pastor, but here a message over a video feed. It might be a live feed from a church like Willowcreek (20,000 people every Sunday visit Willowcreek’s "seeker services), or it might be a video tape. But it’s not a live man or woman standing up in front and speaking. Sometimes a live speaker is booked, but that’s something special, not something that’s done every week.

This makes a lot of sense when you think about it. For evangelicals, the main reason to go to church is to hear Bible-based teaching in the company of other believers. Why should a church pay a full-time “preacher” when they can share a good Bible teacher-preacher with dozens of churches all over the world.

It’s similiar to Catholics all listening to Father Barron and his film series–there is no reason why Father Barron has to come to each church in person when he can do a film series.

(Remember that there is no need for a “priest” to consecrate bread and grape juice for communion in Protestant churches, so that’s not an issue.)

 

[Nicea325]

Why do you think people go to those evangelical/non-denomonational churches?

I think they might be seeking God but the just haven’t come to the fullness of truth yet=the Catholic Church.

What do you all think?

I think there exist an array of reasons why many attend such churches. However, it is my personal experience with many who attended such churches usually do not stick around for long. Now I am not saying this is the norm,but only from people I know who tell me they did not stick around for long. Why they left? I do not know, I have never bothered to ask them why they left.

 

[ltwin]

The megachurches that I’m familiar with don’t have a live pastor, but here a message over a video feed. It might be a live feed from a church like Willowcreek (20,000 people every Sunday visit Willowcreek’s "seeker services), or it might be a video tape. But it’s not a live man or woman standing up in front and speaking. Sometimes a live speaker is booked, but that’s something special, not something that’s done every week.

This makes a lot of sense when you think about it. For evangelicals, the main reason to go to church is to hear Bible-based teaching in the company of other believers. Why should a church pay a full-time “preacher” when they can share a good Bible teacher-preacher with dozens of churches all over the world.

It’s similiar to Catholics all listening to Father Barron and his film series–there is no reason why Father Barron has to come to each church in person when he can do a film series.

(Remember that there is no need for a “priest” to consecrate bread and grape juice for communion in Protestant churches, so that’s not an issue.)

I think you are talking about a “multi-site” church. A church of this type has multiple campuses instead of one single location. There is a single lead pastor whose Sunday message will be preached live at one campus and videotaped or livestreamed to the other campuses. Each campus will usually have an onsite campus pastor and staff to provide for the pastoral needs of that campus.

 

[andrewstx]

For many evangelicals, prayer is private, not at all part of corporate worship. That’s not always the case but it often is.

Many of the modern rock band style non-denominational Evangelical Churches I have attended start with a few songs by a pretty good country/rock style band, which may or may not be religiously themed. There will then be a 45 minute or hour long sermon. The whole thing might have a 30 second prayer at the end.

It is quite common for the pastor to finish his sermon and simply say, “Thanks for coming, praise God” and walk off the stage. What may happen after that, depending on the Church, is rock and roll style “Praise and worship”, very emotional and experice based, but prayer as Catholics know it - kneeling in adoration and conversation with God - is often not part of the worship experience. That is reserved for the individual’s “Quiet time” as part of his personal relationship with God.

-Tim-

I think that most Evangelicals don’t go to church to pray but to listen to the ministers extempore prayers and not to pray themselves. The individual members have no chance to say a word since the mega-churches are strictly non liturgical.

The thing I don’t like about megas is the worship tends to have a showbiz aspect,
rock bands, skits, is about all thier “worship” amounts

Another objection I have is that the megas seek to bring the world to the church instead of the other way around.

 

[Cat]

I think that most Evangelicals don’t go to church to pray but to listen to the ministers extempore prayers and not to pray themselves. The individual members have no chance to say a word since the mega-churches are strictly non liturgical.

The thing I don’t like about megas is the worship tends to have a showbiz aspect,
rock bands, skits, is about all thier “worship” amounts

Another objection I have is that the megas seek to bring the world to the church instead of the other way around.

But for many of us, the “showbiz” aspect “feels” worshipful because it’s what we grew up with and what we are used to. For many of us, the liturgical aspect “feels” ritualistic and mechanical and even rather pagan.

I’ve gotten used to it now after seven years, and I do find liturgy-based worship comforting and solid. But there’s seldom any feeling or emotion. And that’s OK, since I don’t have to “feel” Jesus to experience His True Presence. Being a Christian is faith-based, not feeling based.

But I’ll admit that I do love the “showbiz” aspect of evangelical worship. For me, this is heaven!–a well-timed “program” with well-rehearsed music and excellent speaking from the pulpit. I may be Catholic, but I’m not going to lie and say that I enjoy wimpy songs sung by only a few people in the congregation, and a pallid homily voiced by a priest who sounds like he has a sinus infection and doesn’t bother to say anything that people don’t already know.

My daughter, a professional stage manager, made the statement once (she is Catholic BTW, a convert like her mom and dad) that “Most Catholic churches could use a good stage manager.”

I agree with her.

Just because a church is liturgical doesn’t mean that everything must be dull, slow, and quiet. I realize that to some people, “reverence” means “quiet.” But to me, it means exuberance, joy, laughter, and singing from the gut. Reverence means giving God what is due. And I think He’s due more than silence and stone-faces.

 

[JustaServant]

I think that most Evangelicals don’t go to church to pray but to listen to the ministers extempore prayers and not to pray themselves. The individual members have no chance to say a word since the mega-churches are strictly non liturgical.

The thing I don’t like about megas is the worship tends to have a showbiz aspect,
rock bands, skits, is about all thier “worship” amounts

Another objection I have is that the megas seek to bring the world to the church instead of the other way around.

I would agree. And I also would add that it is not what was considered worship by the ancient Jews, the early Church, or even post-Reformation Protestant churches. It’s a product of American evangelicalism in the last few decades.
It also tends to satisfy those who have not reached a spiritual, intellectual, or emotional maturity. IMHO.

 

[manualman]

…But I’ll admit that I do love the “showbiz” aspect of evangelical worship. For me, this is heaven!–a well-timed “program” with well-rehearsed music and excellent speaking from the pulpit. …

My daughter, a professional stage manager, made the statement once (she is Catholic BTW, a convert like her mom and dad) that “Most Catholic churches could use a good stage manager.”

…

I’d like to change the analogy. I love cookies. Can eat a whole bag if I don’t stop myself. They’re heaven. But they ain’t doin’ me much good on the deeper level.

They funny thing is that vegetables don’t have to taste bad. Once you learn to pick good ones and prepare them well they can water your mouth too. So good for you food doesn’t have to be a bad experience. But a few empty calories once in a while sure is yummy too. You just have to keep perspective on what’s of true value.

 

[Cat]

I would agree. And I also would add that it is not what was considered worship by the ancient Jews, the early Church, or even post-Reformation Protestant churches. It’s a product of American evangelicalism in the last few decades.
It also tends to satisfy those who have not reached a spiritual, intellectual, or emotional maturity. IMHO.

I don’t agree with this.

Do you know a lot of evangelical Protestants?

I do, and many of them are very spiritually, intellectually, and emotionally mature.

They are not Catholic, but being Catholic does not guarantee spiritual, intellectual, or emotional maturity, does it?

I know that some evangelical churches tend to produce a lot of people who don’t seem very “deep.” But many evangelical churches produce great men and women.

Take a look at this man, John Ortberg: mppc.org/about-mppc/pastors-ministers/john-ortberg I grew up with John. We were in the same youth group, and often I accompanied him on piano while he sang. I knew his family, too, and his extended family because they all attended the same evangelical Conference Baptist church (the church I attended, too).

John is hardly callow or immature. He is down-to-earth in his writing and preaching style, but he is extremely intelligent and a spiritual giant. I don’t know him well enough these days to tell you whether he is emotionally mature, but I know that he has been married to the same woman for many years–that says something about his emotional health.

 

[ltwin]

I think that most Evangelicals don’t go to church to pray but to listen to the ministers extempore prayers and not to pray themselves. The individual members have no chance to say a word since the mega-churches are strictly non liturgical.

The thing I don’t like about megas is the worship tends to have a showbiz aspect,
rock bands, skits, is about all thier “worship” amounts

Another objection I have is that the megas seek to bring the world to the church instead of the other way around.

What evangelical churches have you been to? Of course evangelicals go to church to pray. There is the the planned and the spontaneous corporate prayer that occurs .

While this is not always feasible in a church with over 2000 members, evangelical churches in general offer plenty of times for members to speak. Ever heard of “giving your testimony” or “giving a praise report” or simply giving a word of encouragement or exhortation? Plenty of evangelical churches let that happen. Ever heard of the amen corner? Some churches the entire sermon is punctuated by the sounds of “amen” or “hallelujah” as the congregation responds to what the preacher is saying.

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t agree with this.

Do you know a lot of evangelical Protestants?

I was one for twenty years. Ten as a Baptist preacher.

 

[4Squarebaby]

What evangelical churches have you been to? Of course evangelicals go to church to pray. There is the the planned and the spontaneous corporate prayer that occurs .

While this is not always feasible in a church with over 2000 members, evangelical churches in general offer plenty of times for members to speak. Ever heard of “giving your testimony” or “giving a praise report” or simply giving a word of encouragement or exhortation? Plenty of evangelical churches let that happen. Ever heard of the amen corner? Some churches the entire sermon is punctuated by the sounds of “amen” or “hallelujah” as the congregation responds to what the preacher is saying.

At Church On The Way while Pastor Jack Hayford was senior pastor and maybe to this day every service had a break where the congregation broke into small circles and prayed for each other. For a mega church it was hard to hide. By response I think they mean the scripted call and response taken from the missal or a Methodist church bulletin for examples.

For all the complaining about “a show”, as a child the liturgical church looked just like a show to me. A grand community theatre where everyone read from the script and played their individual part. After all a rock concert may be a show, but so is a classical; recital where you do not clap when the music breaks until you have been taught the proper break in the music for applause

 

[cooterhein]

They can go to church when then want, when they miss, no one notices.

Most of the big ones have at least two or three services each week; some do four or five. Even for those who attend one each week, it’s very rare for everyone to see everyone, much less get to know them personally. Are there any other churches/parishes that do something like that?

 

[andrewstx]

But for many of us, the “showbiz” aspect “feels” worshipful because it’s what we grew up with and what we are used to. For many of us, the liturgical aspect “feels” ritualistic and mechanical and even rather pagan.

I’ve gotten used to it now after seven years, and I do find liturgy-based worship comforting and solid. But there’s seldom any feeling or emotion. And that’s OK, since I don’t have to “feel” Jesus to experience His True Presence. Being a Christian is faith-based, not feeling based.

If you have never felt or experienced emotion during Catholic worship I would like to reccomend that you attend either the Good Friday liturgy or Maunday Thursday. I chalenge you to leave one of those days with dry eyes.<

 

[andrewstx]

At Church On The Way while Pastor Jack Hayford was senior pastor and maybe to this day every service had a break where the congregation broke into small circles and prayed for each other. For a mega church it was hard to hide. By response I think they mean the scripted call and response taken from the missal or a Methodist church bulletin for examples.

For all the complaining about “a show”, as a child the liturgical church looked just like a show to me. A grand community theatre where everyone read from the script and played their individual part. After all a rock concert may be a show, but so is a classical; recital where you do not clap when the music breaks until you have been taught the proper break in the music for applause

Worship from a written liturgy has it’s advantages, for one it’s not needed to break up into small groups. And of course it has the advantage of allowing everyone to pray together in the same words.

To be honest the Protestant (some Protestants not Episcopalians or Lutherans) tendency to make up prayers as they go along, iow exempore is all lot motivated by predjudice to Catholics, history prooves otherwise.