Evangelicals treading toward gay marriage?

[SyroMalankara]

politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/evangelicals-gay-marriage-108608.html

http://images.politico.com/global/2014/07/07/pew-chart1.png

Since they do not have an official doctrinal body, nor any objective standard on orthodoxy, it seems the battle is already lost. Only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will remain in the next 10-15 yrs.

 

[dronald]

politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/evangelicals-gay-marriage-108608.html

http://images.politico.com/global/2014/07/07/pew-chart1.png

Since they do not have an official doctrinal body, nor any objective standard on orthodoxy, it seems the battle is already lost. Only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will remain in the next 10-15 yrs.

From the article:
“Support for same-sex marriage remains lowest among evangelical Christians, but they are beginning to catch up: Between 2001 and 2014, evangelicals saw the largest percent increase in support for gay marriage, compared to other religious groupings surveyed by Pew Research.”

Going by what you’ve said, can you explain why Evangelicals are currently “winning” against Catholics?

23% vs 59%? Is that correct?

 

[Adamski]

From the article:
“Support for same-sex marriage remains lowest among evangelical Christians, but they are beginning to catch up: Between 2001 and 2014, evangelicals saw the largest percent increase in support for gay marriage, compared to other religious groupings surveyed by Pew Research.”

Going by what you’ve said, can you explain why Evangelicals are currently “winning” against Catholics?

23% vs 59%? Is that correct?

The difference is the Catholic Church is a theocracy and evangelical churches are a democracy so the 59% doesn’t get a vote were the 23% due

 

[JonNC]

politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/evangelicals-gay-marriage-108608.html

http://images.politico.com/global/2014/07/07/pew-chart1.png

Since they do not have an official doctrinal body, nor any objective standard on orthodoxy, it seems the battle is already lost. Only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will remain in the next 10-15 yrs.

Hi Syro,
The Orthodox Church is not accounted for, and the Catholic Church seems about even with mainline protestantism. What makes you think only Catholics and Orthodox will remain in the next 10-15 years, other than on doctrine alone?
I might also add that mainline protestantism covers a good bit of ground. LCMS Lutherans remain solid in the scriptural marriage camp, doctrinally. And while I don’t expect that to change, if it does, here’s hoping that Rome or Orthodoxy holds the field, so I have a place to land.

Interestingly, the subtitle is: And the Bible isn’t getting in their way.

For those communions now accepting or advocating same-gender marriage, no truer statement can be made.

Jon

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi Syro,
The Orthodox Church is not accounted for, and the Catholic Church seems about even with mainline protestantism. What makes you think only Catholics and Orthodox will remain in the next 10-15 years, other than on doctrine alone?

Well, Catholics/Orthodox have no choice regarding Sacramental actions; a priest could attempt to “bless” something “unblessable”, but this wouldn’t be recognized and the attempting priest would be excommunicated. In protestantism, evangelicalism, etc, the attempt wouldn’t be considered ‘excommunicable’, and if it were, another denomination would be created with this act being the acceptable exception.

I might also add that mainline protestantism covers a good bit of ground. LCMS Lutherans remain solid in the scriptural marriage camp, doctrinally. And while I don’t expect that to change, if it does, here’s hoping that Rome or Orthodoxy holds the field, so I have a place to land.

The legitimate Roman/Orthodox body have no choice, individual clerics and laymen could believe whatever they feel like I suppose, but the body couldn’t adjust for that belief. It seems protestantism/evangelicalism is more flexible in that regard.

Interestingly, the subtitle is: And the Bible isn’t getting in their way.

Well, yes, but the main story in the article involves a woman who is using Scripture to justify her understanding, with gay-friendly evangelical support.

 

[dronald]

The difference is the Catholic Church is a theocracy and evangelical churches are a democracy so the 59% doesn’t get a vote were the 23% due

That’s a silly argument.

Regardless, apparently you must admit that Evangelicals are doing a better job of teaching in regards to homosexual marriage than the Catholic teachers. Even the article says that the Evangelicals who teach homosexual marriage is okay should “ignore what the Bible says” about it.

This article does not help the Catholic case.

 

[SyroMalankara]

That’s a silly argument.

Regardless, apparently you must admit that Evangelicals are doing a better job of teaching in regards to homosexual marriage than the Catholic teachers. Even the article says that the Evangelicals who teach homosexual marriage is okay should “ignore what the Bible says” about it.

This article does not help the Catholic case.

Not really, this stated 23% of white evangelical protestants. Many evangelicals do not identify as white, the black protestant numbers push up the % significantly. Also, being against gay marriage is the end result of a set of theology; some southern whites just hate gays to be perfectly honest.

 

[dronald]

Not really, this stated 23% of white evangelical protestants. Many evangelicals do not identify as white, the black protestant numbers push up the % significantly. Also, being against gay marriage is the end result of a set of theology; some southern whites just hate gays to be perfectly honest.

For whatever reason you chose this chart and this article specifically as it relates to Evangelicals. I see “black Protestants” and “white Evangelicals.” I’m not sure why it doesn’t have a chart on black Evangelicals but chooses Protestants instead.

Regardless, let’s discuss your original premise that only Catholicism and Orthodoxy shall live based on the results posted as it relates to gay marriage.

Catholics 59%, Evangelicals 23%. Why are the Catholic laity so much worse in this regard? What excuse must be given in order to make my Church look worse than yours. “Mines true and it doesn’t matter what the members think.”? Fine, but if the point of the article is to say that some Evangelicals are misguided (although less as it relates to gay marriage than all other Christian denominations) and Catholicism doesn’t count; it’s really not all that compelling.

 

[steido01]

Well, Catholics/Orthodox have no choice regarding Sacramental actions; a priest could attempt to “bless” something “unblessable”, but this wouldn’t be recognized and the attempting priest would be excommunicated. In protestantism, evangelicalism, etc, the attempt wouldn’t be considered ‘excommunicable’, and if it were, another denomination would be created with this act being the acceptable exception.

The legitimate Roman/Orthodox body have no choice, individual clerics and laymen could believe whatever they feel like I suppose, but the body couldn’t adjust for that belief. It seems protestantism/evangelicalism is more flexible in that regard.

What makes you think it’s any different with protestant communions? To use my LCMS as an example, we will never (can never) bless same sex couples. There’s lots of things adiaphora we can change, but we can’t vote doctrine and Holy Scripture out of existence (and none of our bishops could claim some revelation or to be speaking ex cathedra). If an individual pastor attempted it, he would be defrocked and removed, just as an individual Roman Catholic or Orthodox priest. If they continued to preach outside of our communion after an excommunication, how would they be different from a Roman Catholic or Orthodox priest who attempts the same? They are no longer “of us.”

 

[SyroMalankara]

For whatever reason you chose this chart and this article specifically as it relates to Evangelicals. I see “black Protestants” and “white Evangelicals.” I’m not sure why it doesn’t have a chart on black Evangelicals but chooses Protestants instead.

Regardless, let’s discuss your original premise that only Catholicism and Orthodoxy shall live based on the results posted as it relates to gay marriage.

Catholics 59%, Evangelicals 23%. Why are the Catholic laity so much worse in this regard?

Because many are Catholic in Name only.

What excuse must be given in order to make my Church look worse than yours.

I have no idea what church you belong to, and you didn’t come to mind when I posted. Evangelical is a self-description of affiliation and a certain stance on the Bible, not a denomination.

“Mines true and it doesn’t matter what the members think.”? Fine, but if the point of the article is to say that some Evangelicals are misguided (although less as it relates to gay marriage than all other Christian denominations) and Catholicism doesn’t count; it’s really not all that compelling.

The point isn’t at all to say Evangelicals are misguided, it’s to ask, if the Bible isn’t enough standard to counter their stance, what is?

 

[dronald]

Because many are Catholic in Name only.

Likewise Evangelicals. For the sake of calling themselves “Christian” and abstaining from ridicule from the secular world they pick and choose what they like about the Bible and what they don’t; as this article points out.

You see, we’re not so different from each other, but as it relates to gay marriage we seem to be doing better.

I have no idea what church you belong to, and you didn’t come to mind when I posted. Evangelical is a self-description of affiliation and a certain stance on the Bible, not a denomination.

I go to an Evangelical Church; one that’s basically what you would imagine. Discussions on the streets with people, going into bad neighborhoods at night to feed the homeless and preach the gospel, anti-abortion, anti gay marriage, rock music, bible study groups, enthusiastic Pastor, no sex before marriage, etc.

The point isn’t at all to say Evangelicals are misguided, it’s to ask, if the Bible isn’t enough standard to counter their stance, what is?

Evangelicals are supposed to be Bible literalists, so to say “this Evangelical ignores this part of the Bible” is sort of an oxymoron. The article is clear that in fact the Bible is an obstacle for these people, as they must ignore it to adhere to the belief in homosexual marriage.

 

[SyroMalankara]

What makes you think it’s any different with protestant communions?

One reason, to date there have been 0 Catholic gay marriages, 0 Orthodox gay marriages, worldwide. This cannot be said regarding mainstream Protestant denominations anymore, nor evangelicals now it appears. Sure, there are exceptions in the smaller denominations that split from these mainlines.

To use my LCMS as an example, we will never (can never) bless same sex couples.

The LCMS, from your presentation, seems to have retained a very Catholic understanding of Church.

There’s lots of things adiaphora we can change, but we can’t vote doctrine and Holy Scripture out of existence (and none of our bishops could claim some revelation or to be speaking ex cathedra). If an individual pastor attempted it, he would be defrocked and removed, just as an individual Roman Catholic or Orthodox priest.

Has this function ever taken place? I remember many Methodists saying the same thing, but when push can to shove, the minister retained his position. The mainstream Anglicans in the US and Europe today, rarely if ever, excommunicate - the last, I believe was some woman cleric who claimed to be a Muslim and Christian, she was removed after public outcry. Don’t know if she appealed.

If they continued to preach outside of our communion after an excommunication, how would they be different from a Roman Catholic or Orthodox priest who attempts the same? They are no longer “of us.”

Has this form ever been employed?

 

[JonNC]

=SyroMalankara;12168101]Well, Catholics/Orthodox have no choice regarding Sacramental actions; a priest could attempt to “bless” something “unblessable”, but this wouldn’t be recognized and the attempting priest would be excommunicated. In protestantism, evangelicalism, etc, the attempt wouldn’t be considered ‘excommunicable’, and if it were, another denomination would be created with this act being the acceptable exception.

Yes. I agree, that for Catholic and Orthodox, doctrine. And BTW, thank God both are here for this and many other reasons.

The legitimate Roman/Orthodox body have no choice, individual clerics and laymen could believe whatever they feel like I suppose, but the body couldn’t adjust for that belief. It seems protestantism/evangelicalism is more flexible in that regard.

Don responded well to this. for our LCMS POV.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

That’s a silly argument.

I disagree. I think it is a reasonable argument. Witness, as an example, what has happened in the ELCA. The Churchwide assembly in 2011, in its changing position on clergy in a same-gender relationship, relied on a majority rule vote. To be sure, it was ramrodded by the progressive leadership of the organization, but the voting laity went along.

The decision had nothing to do with scripture, or Lutheran doctrine. In fact, quite the contrary. And when the ELCA finally approves same-gender marriage, it will be done in a democratic way.

Jon

 

[SMGS127]

Regardless, apparently you must admit that Evangelicals are doing a better job of teaching in regards to homosexual marriage than the Catholic teachers. Even the article says that the Evangelicals who teach homosexual marriage is okay should “ignore what the Bible says” about it.

If they polled those Evangelicals and asked them “is it appropriate to throw a gay child out of the house?” I’d imagine the “yes” votes drive most of the anti-SSM stuff. In other words, they still pick and choose what parts of the Bible they follow – it’s just that they already really, really dislike gays so that’s a very easy part of the Bible for them to follow.

On the other hand, Catholics are taught love, compassion, and respect, and so many Catholics mistakenly take this and apply it to a “live-and-let-live” attitude.

This has nothing to do with which organization “teaches” better so much as it does the fundamental values of the organizations.

 

[ltwin]

If they polled those Evangelicals and asked them “is it appropriate to throw a gay child out of the house?” I’d imagine the “yes” votes drive most of the anti-SSM stuff. In other words, they still pick and choose what parts of the Bible they follow – it’s just that they already really, really dislike gays so that’s a very easy part of the Bible for them to follow.

On the other hand, Catholics are taught love, compassion, and respect, and so many Catholics mistakenly take this and apply it to a “live-and-let-live” attitude.

This has nothing to do with which organization “teaches” better so much as it does the fundamental values of the organizations.

So, when Catholics are pro-homosexuality they are just misguided Catholics trying to live out the love of Christ. When evangelicals are pro-homosexuality, it’s obviously because their heresy of Sola Scriptura has led them into deception.

On the other hand, when Catholics are anti-homosexuality, they are being faithful to the Christian faith while lovingly calling on those trapped in homosexual sin back to holiness of life. When evangelicals do the same thing, it’s just because they are inherently haters of anyone who acknowledges that they struggle with this temptation.

??? Really??? The cognitive dissonance displayed in these posts confounds me.

 

[johnnyc176]

Since they do not have an official doctrinal body, nor any objective standard on orthodoxy, it seems the battle is already lost.

Not surprising really…when you separate Jesus Christ from His Church…

I wouldn’t say the battle is lost. Christ wants all in His Church so we must continue to pray that all will come to know the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church.

 

[dronald]

If they polled those Evangelicals and asked them “is it appropriate to throw a gay child out of the house?” I’d imagine the “yes” votes drive most of the anti-SSM stuff. In other words, they still pick and choose what parts of the Bible they follow – it’s just that they already really, really dislike gays so that’s a very easy part of the Bible for them to follow.

On the other hand, Catholics are taught love, compassion, and respect, and so many Catholics mistakenly take this and apply it to a “live-and-let-live” attitude.

This has nothing to do with which organization “teaches” better so much as it does the fundamental values of the organizations.

Oh my.

 

[TK421]

@ Donald:

I believe the reason white evangelicals have the lowest is because within protestantism, your denomination is far more readily shoppable. If you’re a protestant that has X views towards gay marriage, abortion, fornication, etc., you’re going to fall into the particular protestant denomination that reflects your views. Theologically liberal protestants will belong to theologically liberal denominations, more conservative protestants will belong to more conservative denominations, etc. It’s a form of consumerism in the spiritual realm. Of course, you still have aging mainline protestants that continue to attend their liberalized denominations, and you can still have some liberal-minded people belonging to white evangelical denominations, but the overall trend is still very clear.

On the other hand, if you come from a Catholic background, there is no such working concept of “denomination”. You’re Catholic, and that’s that. You can be a non-practicing Catholic, a submarine Catholic that surfaces on Easter and Christmas, or a practicing heterodox Catholic that rejects certain doctrines, or a practicing Catholic, but you still fall under the category of ‘Catholic’.

Nor does evangelicalism’s current relative success over the condemnation of homo-eroticism reflect its success at preserving all truth.

 

[JonNC]

@ Donald:

I believe the reason white evangelicals have the lowest is because within protestantism, your denomination is far more readily shoppable. If you’re a protestant that has X views towards gay marriage, abortion, fornication, etc., you’re going to fall into the particular protestant denomination that reflects your views. Theologically liberal protestants will belong to theologically liberal denominations, more conservative protestants will belong to more conservative denominations, etc. It’s a form of consumerism in the spiritual realm. Of course, you still have aging mainline protestants that continue to attend their liberalized denominations, and you can still have some liberal-minded people belonging to white evangelical denominations, but the overall trend is still very clear.

On the other hand, if you come from a Catholic background, there is no such working concept of “denomination”. You’re Catholic, and that’s that. You can be a non-practicing Catholic, a submarine Catholic that surfaces on Easter and Christmas, or a practicing heterodox Catholic that rejects certain doctrines, or a practicing Catholic, but you still fall under the category of ‘Catholic’.

Or, you could be a Catholic that joined the Episcopal Church, or an evangelical church. To say that Catholics can’t or don’t move to other communions/denominations/churches seems to be inconsistent with the reality of the life of the Church.

Jon