Evangelicals treading toward gay marriage?

[TK421]

That’s true, but movements from Catholicism to one of the factions in protestantism are less frequent than movements within protestantism itself. In the early 20th century there was still intact a sense of exclusivity to your particular protestant background, but in the contemporary world, Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism & Episcopalianism, Methodism, have become increasingly inconsequential. You could attend one of them on one week and another the next. When I grew up we went to a Church of Christ, but we went to a special Methodist service on Christmas Eve. The reason for this? Because it was two blocks down from my grandmother’s house. It was a matter of logistics.

 

[JonNC]

That’s true, but movements from Catholicism to one of the factions in protestantism are less frequent than movements within protestantism itself. In the early 20th century there was still intact a sense of exclusivity to your particular protestant background, but in the contemporary world, Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism & Episcopalianism, Methodism, have become increasingly inconsequential. You could attend one of them on one week and another the next.

Interestingly, that may be because many of them have moved to a structure of church fellowship, as the ELCA and TEC have, or the ELCA and PCUSA have. Its perhaps more due to closer doctrinal ties between some communions. Oddly, they all tend to be more liberal in their outlook.
OTOH, Lutheran synods such as the LCMS and WELS are less inclined to that kind of movement. But again, that has perhaps more to do with doctrine than politics.

One note: the description of protestantism having “factions” is probably inaccurate. Factions would assume some type of former unity or singular organization. That’s never been the case.

When I grew up we went to a Church of Christ, but we to this special Methodist service on Christmas Eve. The reason for this? Because it was two blocks down from my grandmother’s house.

I’d be more inclined to do that with a local Catholic Church, but that’s me.

Jon

 

[TK421]

I am, by the way, not attempting to say that everything is peachy in the Catholic Church. That would be indefensible. When I saw the graph, I experienced a sinking feeling in my stomach as well as anger. But it’s still worth noting that because there is no concept of “denomination” within Catholicism, you’re going to have a broader range of people compared to more specific protestantism that each appeals to a more select group of consumers. If you charted data for Catholics that regularly attend Mass, the numbers would be imperfect but much more promising.

 

[TK421]

Interestingly, that may be because many of them have moved to a structure of church fellowship, as the ELCA and TEC have, or the ELCA and PCUSA have. Its perhaps more due to closer doctrinal ties between some communions. Oddly, they all tend to be more liberal in their outlook.
OTOH, Lutheran synods such as the LCMS and WELS are less inclined to that kind of movement. But again, that has perhaps more to do with doctrine than politics.

Doctrinal disputes between denominations that were previously regarded as non-negotiable a century ago have gradually shifted to becoming non-essential, which has made either mergers or at least closer ties more possible. I don’t consider this a meaningful form of merger though; you just end up with a progressively vaguer creed. At the far end of this spectrum, you have Episcopalian deans that identify themselves as non-theist Christians.

 

[JonNC]

I am, by the way, not attempting to say that everything is peachy in the Catholic Church. That would be indefensible. When I saw the graph, I experienced a sinking feeling in my stomach as well as anger. But it’s still worth noting that because there is no concept of “denomination” within Catholicism, you’re going to have a broader range of people compared to more specific protestantism that each appeals to a more select group of consumers. If you charted data for Catholics that regularly attend Mass, the numbers would be imperfect but much more promising.

Just curious (and I know off-topic), do you think Eastern Catholics have a “denomination” concept (yeah, I’m stretching the term a bit)?

Jon

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Not really, this stated 23% of white evangelical protestants. Many evangelicals do not identify as white, the black protestant numbers push up the % significantly. Also, being against gay marriage is the end result of a set of theology; some southern whites just hate gays to be perfectly honest.

I doubt that you can back up that rash statement! Your last sentence particularly!

 

[Cat]

I think most Christians of any church affiliation, including Catholic, who are pro-gay-marriage have children who come out.

It’s easy to say, “I’m against it,” when it doesn’t touch you personally.

It’s very very difficult to say, “I’m against it,” when it means that you are “against” your own beloved child(ren).

I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying that there are a lot of people who will throw out theology, the Bible, their church/Church, and even the dear Lord Jesus Christ when it comes to their own children.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I doubt that you can back up that rash statement!

which?

 

[Used2beSherryG]

The people who identify themselves as Catholic while never attending Mass and claiming they disagree with Church teaching are legion. That is how you can account for the stats you are posting. Case in point: I have a brother and a sister who haven’t practiced their faith at all in 40 years, but if you ask them their faith they will say “Catholic”.

 

[andrewstx]

That’s true, but movements from Catholicism to one of the factions in protestantism are less frequent than movements within protestantism itself. In the early 20th century there was still intact a sense of exclusivity to your particular protestant background, but in the contemporary world, Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism & Episcopalianism, Methodism, have become increasingly inconsequential. You could attend one of them on one week and another the next. When I grew up we went to a Church of Christ, but we went to a special Methodist service on Christmas Eve. The reason for this? Because it was two blocks down from my grandmother’s house. It was a matter of logistics.

Oddly enough the accapela church of Christ I was raised in did not observe Christmas or any other religious holidays. The bible did not say they had to, so they didn’t.

The only time Christmas was observed was when it just happened to fall on a Sunday, and even then it was just an ordinary Sunday with no mention of the birth of Our Lord at all,

 

[Per_Crucem]

The point isn’t at all to say Evangelicals are misguided, it’s to ask, if the Bible isn’t enough standard to counter their stance, what is?

So their impending eternal judgment before the throne of the Creator of the universe isn’t enough, unless in this life, a church body says “You can’t do that”?

 

[JackieO123]

It’s the Protestant’s dilemma. They’ve no authority except how they want to interpret scripture, and in some cases remove it in favor of what they want to believe. They need our prayers more than anyone else, I’d think.

 

[SyroMalankara]

So their impending eternal judgment before the throne of the Creator of the universe isn’t enough, unless in this life, a church body says “You can’t do that”?

Apparently not. I’m sure there’s a verse or two they can point to that says “why would a loving God”… etc.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

That’s a silly argument.

Regardless, apparently you must admit that Evangelicals are doing a better job of teaching in regards to homosexual marriage than the Catholic teachers. Even the article says that the Evangelicals who teach homosexual marriage is okay should “ignore what the Bible says” about it.

This article does not help the Catholic case.

I think what he is saying is that, despite the abysmal rate Catholics as people have in understanding the issue, the Catholicism as a religion does not and will not condone gay marriage, whereas, should enough evangelicals decide to support it, then they can simply say that their version of Christianity thinks that gay marriage is ok. I don’t see any particular evidence that this is likely to occur in any significant amount from the graph (and doubt that it will), but it is at least a possible outcome.

But yeah. Especially in recent years, Catholics as a group haven’t really been learning Catholicism. Talking about who is “winning” makes little sense, but it does appear that a higher percentage of evangelicals take tenets of their faith seriously than of Catholics. There may be some sort of exaggeration in the number difference based on the idea that Protestants who don’t agree with evangelical teachings tend to stop calling themselves evangelical, while for some reason many Catholics will both call themselves Catholic and say that the Church is wrong, but I’ll definitely agree that we have a teaching issue regardless of whether or not this affects the numbers.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Apparently not. I’m sure there’s a verse or two they can point to that says “why would a loving God”… etc.

And they will say the same thing to a church body, too. My best guess, however, is that at the last judgment, they will say nothing at all. What a Pope says in the meantime, is not going to dissuade them in their ignoring of God’s law.

 

[Adamski]

That’s a silly argument.

Regardless, apparently you must admit that Evangelicals are doing a better job of teaching in regards to homosexual marriage than the Catholic teachers. Even the article says that the Evangelicals who teach homosexual marriage is okay should “ignore what the Bible says” about it.

This article does not help the Catholic case.

All your church needs is 51% vote to teach gay marriage is biblical just like you are done with contraception and remarriage

The Catholic Church can’t change doctrine there is no vote

 

[JonNC]

All your church needs is 51% vote to teach gay marriage is biblical **just like you are done with contraception and remarriage **

The Catholic Church can’t change doctrine there is no vote

Maybe dronald has mentioned it in the thread, or in the past, and I missed it, but if not, how do you know his communion approves contraception and remarriage?

Jon

 

[dronald]

I think what he is saying is that, despite the abysmal rate Catholics as people have in understanding the issue, the Catholicism as a religion does not and will not condone gay marriage, whereas, should enough evangelicals decide to support it, then they can simply say that their version of Christianity thinks that gay marriage is ok. I don’t see any particular evidence that this is likely to occur in any significant amount from the graph (and doubt that it will), but it is at least a possible outcome.

I think you’re right, and I think both sides are guilty. Why do you think it’s so hard for Catholics to believe what Catholics are supposed to? What is it about Catholicism and the way the laity are taught that makes people reject its tenants?

But yeah. Especially in recent years, Catholics as a group haven’t really been learning Catholicism. Talking about who is “winning” makes little sense, but it does appear that a higher percentage of evangelicals take tenets of their faith seriously than of Catholics. There may be some sort of exaggeration in the number difference based on the idea that Protestants who don’t agree with evangelical teachings tend to stop calling themselves evangelical, while for some reason many Catholics will both call themselves Catholic and say that the Church is wrong, but I’ll definitely agree that we have a teaching issue regardless of whether or not this affects the numbers.

I really do wonder why this is. Why would Catholics feel compelled to call themselves Catholic and yet reject its tenants while Evangelicals would abandon the label? It’s almost as if they would feel shame calling themselves Evangelical because of the stigma it has of rejecting abortion and gay marriage sternly. Although Catholics also reject such, why don’t they feel that same shame of being called Catholic?

 

[paulrxp]

What makes you think it’s any different with protestant communions? To use my LCMS as an example, we will never (can never) bless same sex couples. There’s lots of things adiaphora we can change, but we can’t vote doctrine and Holy Scripture out of existence (and none of our bishops could claim some revelation or to be speaking ex cathedra). If an individual pastor attempted it, he would be defrocked and removed, just as an individual Roman Catholic or Orthodox priest. If they continued to preach outside of our communion after an excommunication, how would they be different from a Roman Catholic or Orthodox priest who attempts the same? They are no longer “of us.”

Are you sure LCMS can never bless same sex marriage? There are plenty of Anglicans just today who probably never thought they’d allow ordination of women based on Holy Scripture. They initially rejected it by a vote, yet it just happened today.

Perhaps the difference between the Roman Catholic priest who is removed, is that he is removed by one Authority, therefore there really is only One Communion, There are no denominations of Catholicism, “of us” in the RC Church is of the One, not the many . That’s the main difference. The One is also of a universal scope in the RC Communion as with the One authority that assures is remains One and unified.

 

[TK421]

I really do wonder why this is. Why would Catholics feel compelled to call themselves Catholic and yet reject its tenants while Evangelicals would abandon the label? It’s almost as if they would feel shame calling themselves Evangelical because of the stigma it has of rejecting abortion and gay marriage sternly. Although Catholics also reject such, why don’t they feel that same shame of being called Catholic?

My idea is this: there are still a lot of Catholics in America that view their Catholicity as being part of their ethnic heritage, rather than as their faith & creed. Catholics didn’t really come to this country in mass until the late 19th century and 20th century. You have a lot of babyboomer Catholics whose Irish/Italian/Polish grandparents were from Europe. So you may have, for example, a middle aged women from Massachusetts who has swallowed down secular liberal values hook, line, and sinker, but she still retains a pseudo-love towards her Catholicity because its part of her background and heritage. Top this off with the fact that she may have been poorly catechized from the beginning and she might even attend Mass now and again, vainly believing that her deplorable views are in some way reconcilable with Christ.

I know a girl originally from London that is in exactly this position. She believes everything that secular liberalism says, but if you ask her if she is Catholic, she will ardently respond “Yes”, and then she’ll tell sentimental stories about her Irish grandpa.

It’s not so different from the situation some Jews are in. They’re conflicted because they want to adopt new age values but they still retain a pseudo-love towards their Jewish faith (though in their case, they have no Magisterium)

American protestants don’t have that sense of heritage; not hardly, because American protestantism has always been a chain of revivals and reforms and revivals.

This is one possible theory, which I think can make sense of at least some secularized Catholics.