Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[a_burger]

For always gr8ful-- You are getting very ‘cocky’ with your supposed knowledge of the Bible. Catholics are not Jehovah Witnesses. I don’t know what church you go to. You have conveniently not told us. I go to the Catholic Church. For 20 years I went to the Evangelical Free Church. I know many of my fellow Catholics don’t know the bible very well. But, I will also tell you that you know it even less. It is time you ask the Holy Spirit to mentor you. You do not, and never will understand Scripture with your attitude.

Did you know the debate between Martin Luther and Zwingli? Apparently you support Zwingli. When I mentioned that the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ you just ‘blew’ it off. The foundation of Christianity is the Eucharist.

Let me ask you before I respond to your ignorance what congregation do you belong to. If you go to a independent church are you a fundamentalist or an evangelical. Do you consider yourself a Protestant or an Anabaptist. After going to ‘Standing at the Gap’ we found out that the single largest sect in Promise Keepers’ were Catholics. We had nothing but good to say about Catholics.

You will hear from me about ‘once saved always saved’ very shortly. Incidentally the most intelligent politician of our times Newt Gingrich was accepted into the Catholic Church this very Easter day.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Usually it is the word alone that gives people problems.

So faith has nothing to do with salvation? Repentance? Nothing?

God bless

Where is my faith without belief? How do I know what to repent unless the Holy Spirit shows me? Do you think that all the sin of the world is wrapped up neatly in the Ten Commandments? What about pride or gossip? Or walking past the beggar on the street?

I feel a rant coming…
I hear these preachers on tv talking about the sin of homosexuality as if the preachers themselves had no sin in their lives. Look at the embarrassing statistics our Christian faith has in the divorce category. We are no better than non-believers! If you want to know what sin you have in your life that’s important to God, just say a constant prayer for God to “change you”. Don’t tell Him what you want changed. And watch what He changes - chances are, it’s going to be something that you never even considered “sin”.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Where is my faith without belief? How do I know what to repent unless the Holy Spirit shows me? Do you think that all the sin of the world is wrapped up neatly in the Ten Commandments? What about pride or gossip? Or walking past the beggar on the street?

Well we are done. Ask simple questions and get an enigma as an answer in return.

I feel a rant coming…
I hear these preachers on tv talking about the sin of homosexuality as if the preachers themselves had no sin in their lives. Look at the embarrassing statistics our Christian faith has in the divorce category. We are no better than non-believers! If you want to know what sin you have in your life that’s important to God, just say a constant prayer for God to “change you”. Don’t tell Him what you want changed. And watch what He changes - chances are, it’s going to be something that you never even considered “sin”.

No always, I have already been convinced of my sins. Despite what you may believe, the Holy Spirit can work in the hearts of Catholics.

God bless

 

[always_gr8ful]

For always gr8ful-- You are getting very ‘cocky’ with your supposed knowledge of the Bible. Catholics are not Jehovah Witnesses.
.

I apologized to the poster and told her I did not intend for her to think I was saying Catholics were the same as JW’s and for her to be offended. Because after all, I never said that Catholics are JW’s. I only said JW’s use that verse to work their way to heaven.

Mom always taught me that no one can offend us without our permission. That has served me well when speaking the faith.

I don’t know what church you go to. You have conveniently not told us.

I have, several times. I said I don’t have religion. I don’t “do” religion. Just because I don’t, doesn’t mean I don’t want anyone else to. That would just be silly.
I do have fellowship with a group of Christian friends that includes a wonderful Catholic man who has helped me understand some of what y’all have posted here.

Did you know the debate between Martin Luther and Zwingli?

I know nothing of the politics of religion, only the Word of God, and that too has served me well.

I’m looking forward to what you have to say about OSAS with an open mind. After all, no matter where the chips fall, it’s the Truth that matters, right?

 

[workingman]

always_gr8ful, you still did not respond to scripture I poseted earlier for you that showes it is faith and works so I will give you some more.

Hebrews 6:1 Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God,

James 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

James 2:21-24, 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Also see this link below as it has good references to faith and works together one is justified.

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-I

Also see this link on the teachings by the church fathers

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#tradition-II

 

[always_gr8ful]

No always, I have already been convinced of my sins. Despite what you may believe, the Holy Spirit can work in the hearts of Catholics.

God bless

Why would you think that I would believe the Holy Spirit can’t work in the hearts of Catholics? Oh course the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of believing Catholics! What a bizarre statement…Unless the point is to focus the attention on me personally, instead of the Word of God.

Let me put your mind to rest on this subject. I have nothing, not one thing, against Catholics. We are all believers in Jesus Christ, are we not? Yes we are. End of story.

 

[workingman]

always_gr8ful;5070271]I apologized to the poster and told her I did not intend for her to think I was saying Catholics were the same as JW’s and for her to be offended. Because after all, I never said that Catholics are JW’s. I only said JW’s use that verse to work their way to heaven.

yes you apologized, but I am not a her. Here is the posting.

always_gr8ful
New Member

Re: Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingman
James 2:14-26 Faith without works is dead

That’s the same one line out of context that Jehovah Witnesses use to work their way to heaven.

---

Salvation = Belief + nothing
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.”
~2 Corinthians 5:21

You never did show how James 2:14-26 was showen out of context. It is not just one verse/one line. show me.

 

[always_gr8ful]

always_gr8ful, you still did not respond to scripture I poseted earlier for you that showes it is faith and works so I will give you some more.

Hey! How about that! I missed one. Here is your post:

I grow weary of explaining one by one. None of the above prove faith alone without works or Tradition. See the following link.

scripturecatholic,.com/sa…ml#tradition-I

Also pleas see and refer to the following verses:
Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12
1 Cor. 3:15, Matt. 7:1-3, Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13, Matt. 16:27, Matt. 25:31-46,
Matt. 25:40,45, There are more but you can view them at this link:
scripturecatholic.com/sal…ml#salvation-I

I tend to ignore lines of verse references that have been copied and pasted from a source to back up a particular doctrine. I’m more into receiving the Truth, and this can only be done with prayerful personal study of the Word as we have seen from all the scripture that contradicts justification by works.

Since I have already posted the entire scripture of so many of these in context, I will have to assume that some are not reading them, but I won’t continually ask why no one has responded. I know that God’s Word is being received by those He is sending it to. (How do you end that sentence without a preposition, lol)

I see you have others (next post) and some appear to be in context, so lets look at them.

 

[always_gr8ful]

yes you apologized, but I am not a her. Here is the posting.

Sorry dude! I, myself, have been mistaken for a man.

 

[always_gr8ful]

James 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

James 2:21-24, 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Ok. This is an interesting one. I could give my answer, but that wouldn’t help anyone, so since the Pope has ordained (is that the right word?) the studying of the Bible, I’ll show you how I study.

*“Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?” *

What we have here appears to be a bonified contradiction. This verse alone contradicts these:

Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:24
Being justified** freely by his grace** through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

And then there are the 7 Churches in Revelations, five of which Jesus says "I know your works, but “Nevertheless I hold this against you…” So obviously the Church is not justified by works.

Being Bible believers, we need to reconcile this apparent contradiction in James 2. If we don’t reconcile it, if we CAN’T reconcile it, then the Bible is not without error, right? And we always start with the belief that the Bible IS without error.

First, reading it all in context, we see that James is saying that faith in Christ would/should produce in us an ACTIVE life that shows. Faith is active. That’s his whole point. But what of this verse? It’s sandwiched between the key to reconciling it, in my opinion:

23 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

Before and after James’ contradictory statement are examples of two people from the Old Testament. James ends his call to action by using two from the old covenant to drive home his point that works shouldn’t be abandoned, ending his call to action with “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

So we can reconcile this verse as pertaining to the old covenant, an example he used to show that works are still something we want to continue in.
I’m not done. I think I have something else I just noticed about Abraham. Be right back.

.

 

[always_gr8ful]

23 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

I went back to read what Paul says about Abraham in Romans 4:

"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
~Romans 4:1-8

I GOT IT!! Yea! Read on down past all the verses about the circumcised and uncircumcised until you get to this:

19 And (Abraham) not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."
~Romans 4:19-25

Belief in the promise, acted upon! Abraham BELIEVED God’s promise, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. This is great.
Rehab BELIEVED that she and her household would be spared when the two spies gave her their promise in the Lord’s Name, and “she sent them out another way”. (Joshua 2)

23 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God (active belief in the promise), and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works (active belief in the promise) a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works (active belief in the promise), when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

I am satisfied that “works” is used in James 2 to show active belief in the promises of God, and is not used as a “I do something for You, You do something for me” indebtedness from God towards justification.

That was very interesting and faith strengthening.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Oh, I messed that up by leaving off the last verse.

23 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God (active belief in the promise), and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works (active belief in the promise) a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works (active belief in the promise), when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works (active belief in the promise) is dead also.

I am satisfied that “works” is used in James 2 to show active belief in the promises of God, and is not used as a “I do something for You, You do something for me” indebtedness from God towards justification.

And what’s cool too is I just showed myself how alive my faith is by my works - the active belief in the inerrant promises of God’s Word.

I hope everyone had a blessed Easter. He Is Risen!

 

[a_burger]

The word faith in the Bible is a ‘kinetic’ word not a passive word. That’s one thing always gr8ful don’t understand. This was addressed by a message I heard from none other than Chuck Swindoll a famous Evangelical preacher. Swindoll said that you really don’t believe that answering an alter call at a Billy Grahm crusade makes you saved. There must be some change in you from your salvation experience. This would only make sense since we would have received the same Spirit that Jesus had when his Father raised him from the dead. We are saved by ‘kinetic’ faith alone not dead faith. This is what James talked about when he said faith without good deeds is dead.

If someone listens to you they can totally ignnore how they live. Your license to sin will land someone in hell. Is that what you want? THINK!

 

[always_gr8ful]

If someone listens to you they can totally ignnore how they live. Your license to sin will land someone in hell. Is that what you want? THINK!

Do you mean that if someone listens to the what God says, they can totally ignore how they live? Because I am posting God’s Word, not my word.

And what do you mean by “my license to sin”? Do non-believers need a license to sin? Why would you say that by believing God, we now have a license for something that never needed a license. We are ALL sinners and fall short of the Glory of God.

My objection has been to the unbiblical claims that we must do ANYTHING in order to maintain our salvation. I wish you could see what an insult this is to Christ, saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
~Romans 5:8

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
~2 Corinthians 5:21

It appears you totally agree with me about my assessment of James 2, yet you argue that listening to me is tantamount to a license to sin. You just said yourself that when a TRUE believer believes, he has the Holy Spirit and there should be a visible change come into that person. Who has the Holy Spirit living inside him and WANTS to go on sinning? No believer I know. Our desire is not to sin, but to please God. Please God first, in other words.

So your argument is without merit. We are a new creation in Christ, and there will be changes! Tough ones too, as I’m sure you know. Now who in the world would truly believe the great sacrifice Jesus made when He died for us and then take that Gift and throw it back in God’s face? (wondering if you will catch this)

 

[rinnie]

Boy you guys have been busy.

First of All Marsha, I have to go out today but while I am gone if you have time, or anyone else could you please explain to Always what Paul is talking about when he says works of the law.

You SOMEONE, ANYONE explain to her that he was referring to circumcision and the the works required of the Jew under the MOSAIC LAW! That good works in general is totally different. And we are under the new law.

Now if you or anyone can get that point across and work on that I really think we can make some progress.

Now here is the Roman Catholic view. I am sure all of my Catholic friends out there agree.

Always takes one verse makes it work with another verse and trys to make it work for the whole bible. As I have and many have proven her wrong, IT does not work She could not answer ONE question correction to fit into her plan of salvation. Why because it does not work. What is ironic some of her think is the Catholic way.

Are we saved by GRACE alone. Actually that is the teaching of the Church. You will see my last post I tried to give the CLUE and even correct myself but it flew by.

Did Jesus do it all on the Cross? YEP. He did everything, IT was a free gift, and he offered it up to us. Can we reject his cross and lose our Salvation. Yep, thats why we are having this problem.

Always seems to think that if we turn away from Christ, but believe that he saved us, we cannot lose Salvation. We can not fall from that Grace given to us. Yes we can by sin. But as Paul says as Grace saved us on the cross, GRACE can continue to save us throught the CHurch. How Always may ask THe SACRAMENTS. Without them you are out.

What are sacarament’s again OUTWARD signs intstituted by Christ to give grace. When we fall from grace WE DID. JESUS never did, you are right always he did it all. He paved the road. But he did not force us to walk it, he gave us free will to walk it. And if we want to keep that free gift we must treasure it. And thats where the strings always hate so much start commimg into play. Salvation is not about Jesus doing it all, we know that without it we would not have a chance. And without grace we could not have faith, and without faith we could not have God. No one denys that. But we still must USE that garce God gave us. ANd it is through faith and deed’s that we do it. And yes GRACE makes this all POSSIBLE. But it does not make it a guarantee that we will do it.

To acknowledge the Salvation that Jesus has done on the cross by turning around and denying his commandments will not save you. IT will and can lose salvation. I am sorry Always you refuse to obey the word and call it Mans word. IT was Gods word not mans. You are very comfused here. Very. Marsha show her. Explain her the difference between the old law and the new. We are the gentliles. we are not held under the Jewish law. Explain to her that the Jews did not accept Jesus they rejected him. They did not believe him. Expalin to her what Paul was telling these JEws. Explain to her he was not talking to us, We accept Jesus.

I will wrap up the whole Catholic faith in my next post, then I gotta go for the day. SOmeo ne please explain this to her. Thanks.

 

[always_gr8ful]

  THINK!

a burger, I’m asking you to think. There can only be one Truth. Either we are under the Law or we are under Grace. We can’t be under both.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
~Romans 8:1-5

 

[rinnie]

This is our faith.

We know Baptism is the start of our Salvation (a sacrament by the way made possible by the cross) but it is not the end in regards to salvation. its the start. We must be Baptised (A DEED) John 3 second we must have faith Rom 3:28 Third we MUST do the will of the Father Matt 7:21 four we must forgive to be forgiven matt 6:14-15 Four we must keep the commamdment Matt 19:16-17 Five must labor for the food John 6:27 SIx we must eat the flesh John 6:51-58 Seven we must seek for gloru and for honor and for immortatality Rom2:6-8 and eight DO GOOD WORKS (DID YOU SEE THIS ALWAYS) James 21:14-26 and Matt 25:31-36 and so on…ITs a process it starts with BAPTISM. its ends with DEATH.

Did Jesus save us by the Cross and give us Salvation, YES YES YES. WITHOUT IT WE COULD NOT GET INTO HEAVEN. By his cross and resurrection he made it possible. He opened it up, he paved the road. he maped the way what ever way you want to say it.

Did by his cross he save us again yes. Can we lose that salvation by SIN YES. How do we get it back by the sacraments. THE CHURCH is the only place that has them. That is why the CC is the only way to Salvation. If we sin, they are given the Power through Jesus Christ to get us back into the GRACE of God. We are saved by GRACE yes. But not once and for all for many of us many times. When we sin we have confession a GRACE given to the PRIESTS to get us back. We can fall from Grace by our sins.

Okay always, got a question , a couple really

Are we saved by Baptism?

Now the oldie but goodie. Do our good works have anything to do with our salvation?

Will be back tonight God Bless!

 

[always_gr8ful]

You SOMEONE, ANYONE explain to her that he was referring to circumcision and the the works required of the Jew under the MOSAIC LAW! That good works in general is totally different. And we are under the new law.

Yes! Someone please show me in scripture this “new law”!
I can’t wait to see this juggling act. :juggle:

 

[rinnie]

Yes! Someone please show me in scripture this “new law”!
I can’t wait to see this juggling act. :juggle:

Always the only thing I can figure is 2 things. either you really don’t understand the bible. Or you are Jewish and reject Jesus. That can be the only 2 things.

I really gotta go. But read Paul again, Look how the Jew’s condemned Jesus for curing people on SUnday, for eating meat. for eating with sinners. Read about being circumcised. This was all the Mosiac law. Look how Jesus forgave sin. That went against their Law. Do you no believe like them that he was God and could do this?

In the new Law we don’t have to be circumcised. we just have to be Baptised. Look in Gal 3:17 the law came into effect 430 years after Abraham. During Moses. Were there no good works before Moses? Works of the law does not equal good works as you seem to believe. I really gotta go. I am sure someone can explain it to you. I am a Christian Always I go by the words of Jesus Christ. I really see now where you are getting confused. At least I think I do, Again on my way out. I am sure one of these guys are seeing what I see now, and can help you.

 

[rinnie]

One quick new one. Off the top of my head. I will give you a NEW COMMANDMENT. Love one another as I have love you. Really gotta roll!