Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[Contarini]

Rinnie, it’s the “must come to the understanding” that I find disturbing, and the Pope’s statement about salvation speaks for itself, doesn’t it? Salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. It’s a free gift - no strings attached.

If you really believed that last sentence, you would be a universalist. Clearly you think that one must believe in Jesus to be saved–that’s a pretty big string. Why is it then disturbing to say that to believe in Jesus we must be part of His body and must be open to all the truth He revealed? You seem disturbed by both the openness and the exclusiveness of Catholicism, whereas to me they seem to have a nice balance between the two. Exclusivist evangelicalism, on the other hand, wants to have its cake and eat it too. You want to damn to hell all the non-Christians but have no “strings” for what it means to be a Christian beyond those you personally see fit to select from the richness of Christian tradition.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

But living in Houston

There are a lot of conservative Catholics in Houston. One of them is one of my best friends from grad school, though I haven’t seen much of him in the past few years. He and his wife attend (or did last I checked) an “Anglican-Use” Catholic parish (this is a former Episcopal church which became Catholic as a community. You might find the people at this parish rather different from the Catholics you have met. I mention this just because I’ve visited this parish and my friend (whose name is Tom Osborne) goes there or at least used to.

Edwin

 

[whizkid43]

Wizkid43, I am so happy to hear that there are Catholics such as yourself who believe the Word of God is inerrant! I’m new to this board, and after reading another thread contrasting worship in the Catholic church with other churches, I was curious enough to perhaps visit a Catholic mass and see for myself. I would very much like to get back to the heart of real worship.

I think attending a Catholic Mass would be an excellent idea. The general pattern to a Mass is as follows (fellows Catholic please correct if I’m wrong)

A. Liturgy of the Word

1. Greeting
2. First Reading (Old Testament)
3. Psalm (typically a Pslam)
4. Second Reading (New Testament)
   5, Gospel
   B. Liturgy of the Eucharist

As you can see by the format Mass is filled with scripture.

I believe if a Catholic goes to Mass weekly they will hear the entire Bible in 3 years and they attend daily mass they will hear the entire Bible in 1 year. Again lots of scripture…

You may read the daily readings here

usccb.org/nab/

Again, there’s been a catechesis problem in the Catholic Church for the last 40 or so yesas. I’m a product of this, cafeteria Catholics are also products don’t take it personally or over stereo type.

If you’re investigating the heart of real worship just pray and search for the Truth. God will lead you to where you belong

God Bless.

 

[a_burger]

The Apostle Paul said theat Scripture was God breathed. He knew God better than any of us. I am Catholic and I believe the Bible is errorless. This is God’s Book-not man’s. If you think God can’t oversee a book without errors then you don’t know God very well.

 

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by a burger
The Evangelicals must come to an understanding that the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ.

Originally Posted by always_gr8ful
I find this statement as disturbing as the Pope’s statement that salvation is found in the Catholic church only.

Rinnie, it’s the “must come to the understanding” that I find disturbing, and the Pope’s statement about salvation speaks for itself, doesn’t it? Salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. It’s a free gift - no strings attached.

Ok, your turn. Show me where it says that Salvation has no strings attached. Salvation comes from Grace does it not. Then that would mean we cannot lose grace correct.

Oh, but we can surely lose grace, By turning away from God we lose grace, the same way that we lose Salvation. We are saved through the grace of Baptism. But remember with Baptism do we not make promises.

Tell me how can you find Salvation without the Catholic Church. When Jesus Christ IS the Catholic Church. Are you not contradicting yourself. Or are you saying that Jesus Christ is not found in the Catholic Church? And that Jesus Christ is not indeed the Catholic Church. How can you separate them, when the bible clearly states the opposite.

 

[a_burger]

Shortly after the feeding of the loaves of bread and the fish Jesus addressed his disciples that they must eat the flesh of the son of man. This was too much for many of them and they left. The Eucharist is definitely the actual body of Christ. The false teaching that this isn’t the actual body of Christ started by a cult that spread believing that Christ only appeared on the cross but actually wasn’t there in the flesh. The bible says those who deny that Christ came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.

Do I believe only Catholics go to heaven? Do I believe Billy Graham will burn in hell and Nancy Pelosi will go to heaven? Nobody would say that publicly. We as Catholics should worry more about Jehovah Witnesses who deny the deity of Christ. Not many of the Catholics I know believe only Catholics will go to heaven. The Orthodox Christitans have an argument they are the original church. We, as Catholics, should be careful because if the Orthodox are found to be the original church then we will be the ones burning in hell.

 

[always_gr8ful]

If you really believed that last sentence, you would be a universalist. Clearly you think that one must believe in Jesus to be saved–that’s a pretty big string. Why is it then disturbing to say that to believe in Jesus we must be part of His body and must be open to all the truth He revealed? You seem disturbed by both the openness and the exclusiveness of Catholicism, whereas to me they seem to have a nice balance between the two. Exclusivist evangelicalism, on the other hand, wants to have its cake and eat it too. You want to damn to hell all the non-Christians but have no “strings” for what it means to be a Christian beyond those you personally see fit to select from the richness of Christian tradition.

Edwin

Contarini, I’m no univeralist!
We seem to have a completely different idea of what constitutes “strings”. Is faith a string? Because faith and belief can be interchangeable.

For instance, if I have faith (or believe) that the UPS man is going to deliver my package today because I read on their website tracking that it is in route to me, my belief creates no strings attached in this scenario as to the promise of delivery.

How do we come to Jesus and accept His free gift of salvation if we don’t believe that He is? We don’t. We can’t.

You want to damn to hell all the non-Christians but have no “strings” for what it means to be a Christian beyond those you personally see fit to select from the richness of Christian tradition.

See, this is what I mean. How does a Bible-believing Christian even respond to such a statement? “Tradition”? I know nothing of tradition. I only know what God’s Word says.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Edwin, I’m sitting here trying my best to make “belief” a string to see your point of view, and I can’t. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. So starting from the beginning - a person hears or reads the Word and it resonates in their soul, and they believe. It might be years until they hear the good news of salvation, who knows? Years, the next day, that day. Anyway, they accept Jesus’s free gift and are saved. I just can’t imagine anyone thinking that belief is a string except an atheist or maybe agnostic, and I wouldn’t buy that argument from them either. How could they accept a free gift from One that doesn’t exist?

 

[always_gr8ful]

There are a lot of conservative Catholics in Houston… Edwin

Before I forget, “Inerrancy is not the same thing as literalism”.
Thank you for pointing that out. I don’t like sterotypes. Everyone put in neat little catagories may help in understanding where someone is coming from, but as we see here in the difference in beliefs of Catholics in general, sterotypes only hamper a deeper understanding of why someone might believe what they believe.

I received a private message here and invitation from a fellow Houstonian today offering to guide me towards the best Catholic churches in my area. This is very sweet of y’all. And I appreciate Wizkid too for giving me the breakdown on what to expect if I attend a mass. Very thoughtful. Thank you all.

The Apostle Paul said theat Scripture was God breathed. He knew God better than any of us. I am Catholic and I believe the Bible is errorless. This is God’s Book-not man’s. If you think God can’t oversee a book without errors then you don’t know God very well.

Ain’t it the truth, aburger! People still trying to find errors 4000, 2000 year later, and they got nothin’! I could just hug you Bible-believing Catholics! I’m so happy I found this forum and see that “Catholic” does not equal what I thought.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Do I believe only Catholics go to heaven? Do I believe Billy Graham will burn in hell and Nancy Pelosi will go to heaven? Nobody would say that publicly.

But I make no doubt, you talk of it often between yourselves.

 

[always_gr8ful]

The Orthodox Christitans have an argument they are the original church. We, as Catholics, should be careful because if the Orthodox are found to be the original church then we will be the ones burning in hell.

I don’t get this, a burger. Do you believe that Christ died as atonement for your sins or don’t you? And if you do, what does any other church have to do with where you will spend eternity? I’m not understanding how one can believe the Bible to be inerrant, but not believe the promise of Jesus of eternal life, and where He goes, we go.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Edwin, I’m sitting here trying my best to make “belief” a string to see your point of view, and I can’t. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. So starting from the beginning - a person hears or reads the Word and it resonates in their soul, and they believe. It might be years until they hear the good news of salvation, who knows? Years, the next day, that day. Anyway, they accept Jesus’s free gift and are saved. I just can’t imagine anyone thinking that belief is a string except an atheist or maybe agnostic, and I wouldn’t buy that argument from them either. How could they accept a free gift from One that doesn’t exist?

Always:

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But that text does not say the written word. John says the Jesus is the Word of God. God created the world by His Word and He wasn’t using the Bible to do it. The Bible is the inerrant word of God. Jesus is The Word of God.

Also remember that the demons believe in God, but they are not saved.

We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace (through faith). Grace is a free gift and we are free to accept or reject it moment by moment. Grace is made available to us primarily through the Sacraments. The Church is the sacrament of salvation to the world. To the extent that anyone of any denomination is saved it is because the are attached to the Church.

For example, you are not Catholic, but you believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is a Catholic doctrine that most Protestant denominations believe, to that extent, you are attached to the Church. You love the Bible, where did the Bible come from? Even Luther said that Protestantism has Rome to thank for the Bible. To the extent that you accept the Bible you are attached to the Church.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Always:

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But that text does not say the written word. John says the Jesus is the Word of God. God created the world by His Word and He wasn’t using the Bible to do it. The Bible is the inerrant word of God. Jesus is The Word of God.

Marsha, I agree with you. Not sure what your point is. Edwin was saying that “belief” is a string attached to the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and I was trying to show it wasn’t. Guess I didn’t do a very good job and only muddied the waters.

As far as Jesus being the Word of God and the Bible being the inerrant word of God, I don’t see the difference if you are implying one. You said “God created the world by His Word”. Well, Jesus created the world. It would be nit-picking to say it wasn’t “God”. Unless this distinction has bearing on your faith, it’s just so much “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”. Maybe I’m out of line here, and there is more than meets the eye - please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m sure Catholics believe in the Trinity, so again, I’m a little confused.

Sure. Demons believe in Jesus. I know this one first-hand. Did they walk the earth as humans at one time? I don’t think so, but I don’t know for sure. If they did, they made their choice, didn’t they?

 

[always_gr8ful]

Let’s say I was married and my husband was having an affair. All my friends and family knew about it because they witnessed it and told me but I refused to believe it. Would “believing” be a string attached to what was the truth? No. It would simply be a choice.

 

[a_burger]

Is there another way to salvation besides Jesus? Was there more than one perrson die on the cross? Jesus said he was the only one. If your belief in contrary to what Jesus said you’re wrong. You could have told Jesus to come down off the cross that there is another way.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Is there another way to salvation besides Jesus? Was there more than one perrson die on the cross? Jesus said he was the only one. If your belief in contrary to what Jesus said you’re wrong. You could have told Jesus to come down off the cross that there is another way.

Exactly. There is only One way, and hearing this, belief is a choice, not a string attached. And to be clear, I believe what Jesus said - every Word.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Marsha, I agree with you. Not sure what your point is. Edwin was saying that “belief” is a string attached to the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and I was trying to show it wasn’t. Guess I didn’t do a very good job and only muddied the waters.

My point is that using Sola Scriptura any Protestant can prove anything from the Bible. For some who believe in Sola Scriptura it amounts to Bibliolatry. In fact, the only difference between Scripture and Tradition is that one was written down and the other was handed forward orally. In my post, I was trying (and clearly did not succeed) to show that certain concepts in the Bible cannot be understood or can be severely twisted using Sola Scriptura. For example, when the jailer asked Paul what must I do to be saved, Paul answered “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” So many Protestants believe that all they must do to be saved is believe. But James writes that the demons believe in Jesus Christ, and they certainly aren’t saved by that belief. You and I both know many who believe in Jesus, but refuse to follow Him. So again, Sola Scriptura is not a valid doctrine and it leads one into many other invalid doctrines such as Sola Fide.

Would you consider love a string?

 

[graceandglory]

Has anybody read these? These are about Willow Creek by Willow Creek…

blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/10/willow_creek_re.html
christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Jan08/Art_Jan08_oped1.html

I can dig up more articles if you want… From Willow Creek, SaddleBack, etc.

I was raised Catholic. I’m one of those 40 somethings Michael Voris talks about, all I learned in CCD was how to make felt banners, yep, that was me…

I left the Catholic faith for a Church that was a Willow Creek wannabe Church. Even attended the Willow Creek Leaders Seminar they hold every August. All the Bible study and spiffy marketing did was bring me back to the Catholic Church.

I’m also a technical professional, all I saw in this “seeker sensitive” Evangelical Church was a hi tech startup. The senior pastor served as the equivalent of the CTO, the Church staff was sales and marketing, the product was the Bible, the goal as many tithers as possible… slick marketing, watered down message to attract people…

Maybe I’m an anomoly but I lived exactly what the linked articles claim…

I’m back home back in the Catholic Church, one year this Lent Best thing that ever happened to me…

Hi whizkid43, our stories are very similar. My favorite part of CCD was the cookie can. I LOVED the cookie can.

You are right about the mega church movement being all about marketing.

If the Catholic Church wanted to “grow” we could invest in marketing strategies too.

Funny, the best things don’t have to be advertized.
Can’t wait to read your article links.
WELCOME HOME!!!

 

[Contarini]

Contarini, I’m no univeralist!
We seem to have a completely different idea of what constitutes “strings”. Is faith a string?

Since “strings” was your term, I should have let you define it. I interpreted it to mean “conditions.” But perhaps that is not what you meant. Faith is certainly a condition of salvation. Are we agreed on that?

For instance, if I have faith (or believe) that the UPS man is going to deliver my package today because I read on their website tracking that it is in route to me, my belief creates no strings attached in this scenario as to the promise of delivery.

False analogy, because the package is going to come to me whether I believe it or not. (This would be, again, more analogous with universalism.) Now if I have to go to the post office to pick it up, my belief that it is there (or at least my willingness to make a short trip on the chance that it might be) is a condition of receiving it.

See, this is what I mean. How does a Bible-believing Christian even respond to such a statement?

Perhaps by thinking outside the box of your particular tradition. And I assure you that what you mean by “Bible-believing Christianity” is a tradition–a fairly modern one, but a tradition nonetheless.

“Tradition”? I know nothing of tradition.

That’s like sitting inside a warm house in winter with a blizzard raging outside and saying: “I know nothing of roofs and walls.” You may not choose to recognize tradition, but tradition has shaped everything you think and do.

I only know what God’s Word says.

And you “know” what God’s Word says because your particular traditions have taught you to interpret it in a certain way, and have taught you that Scripture is God’s Word in the first place.

Edwin

 

[manualman]

I’m breaking my own rule jumping in at page 11, but I have some personal experience in the matter.

In college I was part of an evangelical group called the Navigators. They (in private) consider themselves the elite discipleship college christian outreach group. Like the article author, they’ve recognized that the evangelical growth rate has a major gaping flaw not generally recognized: churn rate. They did some polling of people who had at some time been “born again” (by their definition - classic altar call evangelical stuff). They found that by 15 years after the fact something like 80% no longer practiced ANY religion. They believed that the cause was inadequate discipleship and focused on instilling the regular practice of bible study, verse memorization, group prayer and accountability partners. They felt this approach was superior to the ‘fluffier’ experience found in groups like Intervarsity or Campus Crusade for Christ (though they were polite enough not to say it in mixed company!).

I think they were focused on the same problem addressed by this author. They worried that the typical American evangelical experience was becoming simply the exit route to christianity. They thought it had become too little demanding, too devoid of committment, too little involved with learning and required too little personal sacrifice.

The author may be thinking along the same lines. If mega-church evangelicalism is so watered down as to be essentially the exit route of christianity, how would the numbers look? I’d say that such places would consist largely of converts, but contain very few second, third and fourth generation members. The children of members would have very low rates of staying in the faith. The number of converts might be very large for quite some time in a nation with a christian cultural heritage. But those numbers wouldn’t be sustainable once the number of traditional protestant and catholic converts dwindled.

It’s certainly not proven in the article. But it is a scenario that evangelicals ought to ponder and pray about.