Evangelicals with gay children challenging church

[Rau]

I actually grew up Baptist and when I was 21 and talked to a Baptist pastor about my same-sex attractions, he told me that I could not be gay and be a Christian and that I would go to hell if I didn’t change (for Baptists, I’m sure that just being homosexual is considered a sin). At about the same time, Jerry Fallwell’s Moral Majority was sending out mailings to people in my family stating that most homosexuals are pedophiles and are a threat to children. So I hardly stepped foot into any church for the next 15 years. But my partner of 17 years (who was raised Lutheran but Missouri Synod) and I found our way into an ELCA Lutheran church which is still the largest Lutheran denomination in the US. We have been welcomed there as a couple and are active members of our church.

The unsoundness of the breakaway Christian churches is breathtaking. No consistency over time and place.

It does highlight the difficulty you may face were you seeking to be Catholic or join any Church where homosexual sex is considered gravely immoral. You are open about your active homosexuality. The Church teaches that such sexual acts are gravely wrong. How could you feel welcome? It is not that the Church does not welcome you, it is that your openness about your “situation” creates an intolerable situation for you.

 

[DrTaffy]

Apparently you missed my post - the results show that the confidence interval is too wide to claim religious counseling is associated with more suicide attempts. I posted this earlier.

I didn’t miss it. You overstate the case a bit here, but I agree that the CI is too wide for the results to be definitive.

This does not change the fact that the inconclusive evidence is in the direction of those who seek religious counselling being more, not less, at risk of suicide.

 

[Thorolfr]

your openness about your “situation” creates an intolerable situation for you.

Only if I wanted to be a Catholic

 

[Rau]

Only if I wanted to be a Catholic

Or any of a number of Lutheran, or other Churches. Yes. My point is that the “unwelcomeness” that you would feel cannot be slated home solely to those churches.

 

[estesbob]

I actually grew up Baptist and when I was 21 and talked to a Baptist pastor about my same-sex attractions, he told me that I could not be gay and be a Christian and that I would go to hell if I didn’t change (for Baptists, I’m sure that just being homosexual is considered a sin). At about the same time, Jerry Fallwell’s Moral Majority was sending out mailings to people in my family stating that most homosexuals are pedophiles and are a threat to children. So I hardly stepped foot into any church for the next 15 years. But my partner of 17 years (who was raised Lutheran but Missouri Synod) and I found our way into an ELCA Lutheran church which is still the largest Lutheran denomination in the US. We have been welcomed there as a couple and are active members of our church.

So do you think the purpose of religion is for us to Church shop until we find a denomionation that supports the way we want to live our lives?

 

[Thorolfr]

The unsoundness of the breakaway Christian churches is breathtaking. No consistency over time and place.

You can hardly blame many Catholics like Luther for breaking away from the Catholic Church. The straw that broke the camel’s back for him was when the Dominican friar Johann Tetzel who was a subcommissary for the sale of indulgences in the province of Magdeburg started going from town to town in 1517 in a procession preceded by a cross, a standard bearing the papal arms and a cushion with a bull from Pope Leo X proclaiming the indulgence, all the while using the slogan, “When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs” (In German: “Sobald der Pfennig im Kasten klingt, die Selle aus dem Fegfeuer springt”).

 

[Rau]

You can hardly blame many Catholics like Luther for breaking away from the Catholic Church. The straw that broke the camel’s back for him was when the Dominican friar Johann Tetzel who was a subcommissary for the sale of indulgences in the province of Magdeburg started going from town to town in 1517 in a procession preceded by a cross, a standard bearing the papal arms and a cushion with a bull from Pope Leo X proclaiming the indulgence, all the while using the slogan, “When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs” (In German: “Sobald der Pfennig im Kasten klingt, die Selle aus dem Fegfeuer springt”).

So, therefore, homosexual sex acts are now good?

 

[Thorolfr]

it is that your openness about your “situation” creates an intolerable situation for you.

To me, being open and authentic about who I am is a good thing, not a bad thing. I have no desire to live my life in the closet again, hiding important facts about myself out of fear. I spent far too many years of my life doing that. As a teenager, I hid my sexual orientation from my friends and schoolmates because I was afraid that they would no longer like me if they knew. I hid this from my parents and family because I was afraid that they would no longer love me if they knew. It is much better to be open.

 

[estesbob]

You can hardly blame many Catholics like Luther for breaking away from the Catholic Church. The straw that broke the camel’s back for him was when the Dominican friar Johann Tetzel who was a subcommissary for the sale of indulgences in the province of Magdeburg started going from town to town in 1517 in a procession preceded by a cross, a standard bearing the papal arms and a cushion with a bull from Pope Leo X proclaiming the indulgence, all the while using the slogan, “When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs” (In German: “Sobald der Pfennig im Kasten klingt, die Selle aus dem Fegfeuer springt”).

So the split occurred because a Dominican Friar started selling indulgences? And because of this homosexual behavior is now OK?

 

[Rau]

To me, being open and authentic about who I am is a good thing, not a bad thing. I have no desire to live my life in the closet again, hiding important facts about myself. I spent far too many years of my life doing that. As a teenager, I hid my sexual orientation from my friends and schoolmates because I was afraid that they would no longer like me if they knew. I hid this from my parents and family because I was afraid that they would no longer love me if they knew.

I understand that, and was not attacking you for it. I was just making an observation about the difficulties open homosexuality presents to participation in certain Churches.

I would just add that your decision to have sex with your partner is just that - a choice. It is independent of “who you are”. It should not be confused with anything about who you are. It is not inevitable.

 

[Thorolfr]

So the split occurred because a Dominican Friar started selling indulgences? And because of this homosexual behavior is now OK?

I was just responding to the statement that “the unsoundness of the breakaway Christian churches is breathtaking”. Why criticize other Christian denominations for what Catholics consider unsoundess as if there has never been any unsoundness in the Catholic Church?

 

[Thorolfr]

I would just add that your decision to have sex with your partner is just that - a choice. It is independent of “who you are”. It should not be confused with anything about who you are. It is not inevitable.

We all make choices in life. Being a practicing Catholic is a choice and for me, being an ELCA Lutheran is a choice (better than being a Baptist or a Missouri Synod Lutheran where I would not be welcome if they knew that I’m gay).

 

[Rau]

I was just responding to the statement that “the unsoundness of the breakaway Christian churches is breathtaking”. Why criticize other Christian denominations for what Catholics consider unsoundess as if there has never been any unsoundness in the Catholic Church?

The activities of a friar do not represent the teachings of the Church. Yet the Lutherans are all over the place in space and in time adapting teachings, withdrawing others, to suit…what? They tell the people “hey, not sure if it’s a sin, it’s up to you”.

Does not seem to inspire confidence…

 

[estesbob]

I was just responding to the statement that “the unsoundness of the breakaway Christian churches is breathtaking”. Why criticize other Christian denominations for what Catholics consider unsoundess as if there has never been any unsoundness in the Catholic Church?

Because the Catholic Church has not been “unsound” in their doctrines. Those that broke away went off in 10,000 different directions and offer doctrines for just about anything one wants. One can always find a denomination that will accept anything they want to do. To me that is not Faith-that is capitulation to whatever the cultural norms of the day are.

 

[Rau]

We all make choices in life. Being a practicing Catholic is a choice and for me, being an ELCA Lutheran is a choice (better than being a Baptist or a Missouri Synod Lutheran where I would not be welcome if they knew that I’m gay).

I would hope they would welcome you, but you may be right. The key point is that you would not feel welcome, for you are in fundamental option to certain teachings, and publicly so. That creates a discomfort obvious to all, and felt mostly by you, despite any good will.

 

[estesbob]

We all make choices in life. Being a practicing Catholic is a choice and for me, being an ELCA Lutheran is a choice (better than being a Baptist or a Missouri Synod Lutheran where I would not be welcome if they knew that I’m gay).

And under what basis do we make those choices? Are we given any guidance? Just because a organization calls themselves a “Church” and approves of our choices does it follow that our choices are correct?

 

[Thorolfr]

And under what basis do we make those choices? Are we given any guidance? …does it follow that our choices are correct?

I guess that we will all find out one day if we made the correct choices.

Just because a organization calls themselves a “Church”

I’m sure that most Protestants feel the same about the Catholic Church

 

[Rau]

I’m sure that most Protestants feel the same about the Catholic Church

I often wonder how they reconcile having broken away from the successor of St Peter. From the Church Christ established.

Perhaps next year a new denomination will form in the U.S. It will announce itself and commence a membership drive. Those not happy with their present church may test it out. It does not inspire confidence…

 

[Thorolfr]

So do you think the purpose of religion is for us to Church shop until we find a denomionation that supports the way we want to live our lives?

I think that the purpose of religion is to bring one into relationship with God and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has been the best church for me in that regard. My inability to feel welcome in a Baptist church (or a Catholic Church) because of the extreme hostility to gay people in many congregations would create an insurmountable obstacle for me.

 

[estesbob]

I think that the purpose of religion is to bring one into relationship with God and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has been the best church for me in that regard. My inability to feel welcome in a Baptist church (or a Catholic Church) because of the extreme hostility to gay people in many congregations would create an insurmountable obstacle for me.

Do you believe there are moral absolutes? Or is morality based upon the cultural norms of the time? I don’t think religion is a matter of being comfortable. It is a matter of living our lives in the matter God intended us to do so . It does not seem to me that God would change the nature of sin based upon the time one lives In.