Evangelicals with gay children challenging church

[Prodigal_Son]

With all due respect a child would know the difference.

Huh?

I’ve never seen a gay couple (or two gay people who might be a couple) show signs of affection in church, beyond a hug. And the hugs are not romantic hugs.

 

[WilT]

I held hands briefly with my partner in my church yesterday when we were sitting next to each other in the pews. I guess that that would be scandalous in a Catholic Church, but in mine, no one paid any attention.

Your becoming scandalous yourself to this website and to the Catholic Church Thorolfr

 

[WilT]

If you enjoy causing scandals then you shouldn’t try it here on this website. This is not the forum for it. Their are many other Protestant churches you can hold hands in so don’t bring up things like this here. Take it to your church.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If you enjoy causing scandals then you shouldn’t try it here on this website. This is not the forum for it. Their are many other Protestant churches you can hold hands in so don’t bring up things like this here. Take it to your church.

Are you serious?

 

[clem456]

As one would expect of a mature and respectful adult, inappropriate displays of affection are inappropriate at inappropriate times and circumstances. Miley Cyrus’ act would not be welcome at Mass. French kissing? Prolly off limits. Two men holding hands as a couple? Prolly inappropriate at Mass. Is common sense lost?
Not sure what the issue is.

Would I wear a mini skirt (I’m a man you’ll have to use your imagination) to your house if I knew it would offend you? No. If I did wear a mini-skirt to your house, who is my display about? It’s about ME. It’s inconsiderate and it causes scandal, not because mini-skirts are illegal, but in consideration of those around me. Simply put, I’m being selfish by deliberately pushing myself on others. Selfishness is always ugly and harmful. We do not have a moral right to do legal things that offend others. Passing gas is legal and I’m good at it. Would it offend you? If it offends you, is that your problem or mine? It’s legal, why is it wrong? How about if I deliberately blow smoke in your face on the sidewalk?

If one wants to publicly display their sexuality, or wants to wear a sandwich board declaring “WE CONTRACEPT DESPITE WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES!”, then why even attend Mass? Display your sexuality at the dance club where it is appropriate.
Why would one profess to be Catholic? I would like to think God honors honesty and respect for others. Tell God you want to flaunt your sexuality and go to a church where that’s cool.
Not sure what the point is of the discussion here.

 

[frobert]

I held hands briefly with my partner in my church yesterday when we were sitting next to each other in the pews. I guess that that would be scandalous in a Catholic Church, but in mine, no one paid any attention.

During singing of the Our Father we hold hold hands.

 

[Rau]

Don’t you think that is up to the father of what is acceptable in his house? How would it be any different if the daughter’s partner were a male?

The Father here is God, or so I understood Prodigal to be saying.

 

[MJJean]

Studies have already shown that there are more ex gays than gays.

Ummm, you do know what a bisexual is? Turns out, a lot of bisexuals become confused when they feel SSA and think themselves gay. Then they realize at some later date that they have sexual attractions to the opposite sex and are “cured”. That has nothing to do with the heinous “therapy” espoused by some.

The person who said that homosexual will lead one to a “destructive path” is an ex homosexual who lived that life for 35 years but has been healed completely of homosexual desires by Jesus Christ.

Or maybe the particular person just got old enough that sexual desires weren’t an issue anymore…

You just don’t want to get it Joie de Vivre! You want to dance around this subject.

I disagree. The subject was the perception of the parishioners when they see say two men or two women coming to Mas together, posibly volunteering together, or being affectionate toward each other. Joie de Vivre was merely noting that affection between two people of the same gender is often perceived by those around them as confirming a relationship. Once this perception takes hold it’s not uncommon for the people to be ostracized even if they haven’t done anything improper.

Fair enough. But the challenge comes when the lady wishes to be in his house, partner in arm, holding firm to the view that her sexual relationship is just fine. Unlike the married couple who contracept (say), the mere presence of the lesbian couple makes this statement publicly.

Are you saying that when a couple of women or a couple of men show affection, come to Mass, sit together etc. this is equal to a public statement of not only practicing homosexuality, but a public endorsement of it?

Are people going to be scandalized by her going to church with another woman? If so, that’s their problem, no? It’s not her problem.

Even if a same sex couple does come to Mass together and does show affection this shouldn’t be a scandal. No one should assume that a couple, straight or gay, is having sex even if they are affectionate.

If they show affection that is normally shown between spouses than yes this is scandalous and wrong.

The only affection I can thing of reserved for marriage is sexual in nature. Unless it’s “French kissing” or actual sexual intercourse I can’t think of a single act of affection reserved for marrieds. It’s common for hugging, hand holding, kissing (peck on lips or cheek) and a comforting arm around a shoulder to be seen between those of the same sex who are expressing affection and/or emotional support that has nothing to do with sexuality.

What kind of affection is normally shown between heterosexual spouses in public that would be wrong and scandalous for same-sex couples?

I was wondering that myself…

A parishioner lost her grandmother. I only know about it because she is my daughters sponsor. Her closest friend, another woman, was quite affectionate toward her. Hugs, hand holding during all of Mass, head on shoulder, etc.

Not everyone or even most people knew she was grieving the loss of a loved one. I can just imagine how this Christian show of support and caring over the weeks could be or was perceived by some…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

A parishioner lost her grandmother. I only know about it because she is my daughters sponsor. Her closest friend, another woman, was quite affectionate toward her. Hugs, hand holding during all of Mass, head on shoulder, etc.

Not everyone or even most people knew she was grieving the loss of a loved one. I can just imagine how this Christian show of support and caring over the weeks could be or was perceived by some…

Exactly. We have the choice, in most cases, not to be scandalized. It’s only the extreme case where that option becomes unavailable to us.

 

[Rau]

Are you saying that when a couple of women or a couple of men show affection, come to Mass, sit together etc. this is equal to a public statement of not only practicing homosexuality, but a public endorsement of it.

No. I am saying that if a couple presents themselves as committed to serious sin (by whatever means) then it is inevitable that coming to Church presents difficulties in achieving a feeling of welcome.

I agree we should put the best interpretation on the motives and behaviours of persons that reason allows.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

For most of the Church’s history there were not civil marriages.

That’s true. When civil marriage came into existence and did not involve Catholics…the Church recognized it as a valid marriage. Prior to civil marriage, the Church even recognized pagan marriages as valid. The Church has never recognized a same sex relationship as a marriage.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Are you saying that when a couple of women or a couple of men show affection, come to Mass, sit together etc. this is equal to a public statement of not only practicing homosexuality, but a public endorsement of it?

Even if a same sex couple does come to Mass together and does show affection this shouldn’t be a scandal. No one should assume that a couple, straight or gay, is having sex even if they are affectionate.

In the first place…why would a good Catholic, who is homosexual, have a partner?

The Church requires chastity. The presence of a partner shows that Catholic teaching is being ignored. Even worse, the flaunting of a same sex partnership, is an insult to the Church and all parishioners.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

In the first place…why would a good Catholic, who is homosexual, have a partner?

The Church requires chastity. The presence of a partner shows that Catholic teaching is being ignored. Even worse, the flaunting of a same sex partnership, is an insult to the Church and all parishioners.

I think you’re missing the point. I don’t think MJ is supporting gay people having partners. MJ is simply saying that we shouldn’t assume anyone is a partner of anyone else unless we have adequate evidence, and such evidence hardly ever could be seen at church.

If I went to church with my best friend, you can bet we’d hug each other at the sign of peace, and maybe rib each other quietly if we made a joke before mass. We’d be genuinely affectionate and chummy. We’d be a “couple”, in the way that best friends often seem to be couples. But I certainly hope no one would assume we were gay partners.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Moreover, I have plenty of guy friends who sometimes put their arms around behind me, if we’re sitting next to each other. Does that set off your gaydar too?

 

[Rau]

In the first place…why would a good Catholic, who is homosexual, have a partner?

The Church requires chastity. The presence of a partner shows that Catholic teaching is being ignored. Even worse, the flaunting of a same sex partnership, is an insult to the Church and all parishioners.

By partner, do you mean sexual partner? What if the partner is a special other, but with a shared commitment to chastity? I agree this should be accompanied by appropriately modest behaviour.

 

[Rau]

Moreover, I have plenty of guy friends who sometimes put their arms around behind me, if we’re sitting next to each other. Does that set off your gaydar too?

Presumably, there is an accepted reasonable sensitivity level for one’s gaydar to operate at? I agree it is wrong to have it set highly sensitive, for that fails in our obligation to put the most favourable interpretation on events that reason permits.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Ummm, you do know what a bisexual is? Turns out, a lot of bisexuals become confused when they feel SSA and think themselves gay. Then they realize at some later date that they have sexual attractions to the opposite sex and are “cured”. That has nothing to do with the heinous “therapy” espoused by some.

Or maybe the particular person just got old enough that sexual desires weren’t an issue anymore…

I disagree. The subject was the perception of the parishioners when they see say two men or two women coming to Mas together, posibly volunteering together, or being affectionate toward each other. Joie de Vivre was merely noting that affection between two people of the same gender is often perceived by those around them as confirming a relationship. Once this perception takes hold it’s not uncommon for the people to be ostracized even if they haven’t done anything improper.

Are you saying that when a couple of women or a couple of men show affection, come to Mass, sit together etc. this is equal to a public statement of not only practicing homosexuality, but a public endorsement of it?



Even if a same sex couple does come to Mass together and does show affection this shouldn’t be a scandal. No one should assume that a couple, straight or gay, is having sex even if they are affectionate.

The only affection I can thing of reserved for marriage is sexual in nature. Unless it’s “French kissing” or actual sexual intercourse I can’t think of a single act of affection reserved for marrieds. It’s common for hugging, hand holding, kissing (peck on lips or cheek) and a comforting arm around a shoulder to be seen between those of the same sex who are expressing affection and/or emotional support that has nothing to do with sexuality.

I was wondering that myself…

A parishioner lost her grandmother. I only know about it because she is my daughters sponsor. Her closest friend, another woman, was quite affectionate toward her. Hugs, hand holding during all of Mass, head on shoulder, etc.

Not everyone or even most people knew she was grieving the loss of a loved one. I can just imagine how this Christian show of support and caring over the weeks could be or was perceived by some…

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but it is not necessarily in line with Catholic teaching.

 

[Rau]

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but it is not necessarily in line with Catholic teaching.

It would contribute to the discussion if you were to point out the specific departures from Catholic teaching.

 

[BrassAnkles]

It would contribute to the discussion if you were to point out the specific departures from Catholic teaching.

I was referring to the demonstration of affection.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Ummm, you do know what a bisexual is? Turns out, a lot of bisexuals become confused when they feel SSA and think themselves gay. Then they realize at some later date that they have sexual attractions to the opposite sex and are “cured”. That has nothing to do with the heinous “therapy” espoused by some.

Do you have a scientific reference to support this statement?

Or maybe the particular person just got old enough that sexual desires weren’t an issue anymore…

Actually, there are more ex homosexuals alive than homosexuals.