Evangelizing cafe Catholics

[kms29]

Here’s my problem,a discussion with co workers turned into debating life issues.First my catholic co worker says he thinks it is ok to allow assisted suicide and he stated that someone close to him commited suicide very violently and if this person would have had the “right” to do it legally it would have been easier for the family to handle.Next we moved on to abortion and of course he says we can’t take away a woman’s rights.From there we started talking about going to mass and I pointed out that someone could not take communion if he was in a state of mortal sin without first going to confession(from the look on his face you would have thought I told him his hair was on fire)after the initial shock he says, “what would put someone in mortal sin”?Completely ignoring his views on life issues I pointed out that one must never miss mass without a valid reason and to keep all the commandments.He then says asks me if I think God will keep him out of heaven for not following all the church requires after all, “he is a good person”.This went on for a while and I did my best to quote scripture to show apostolic authority but time was limited.He is a decent guy but could someone give any suggestions for next time we talk?

praise be Jesus Christ!

 

[Eileen_T]

Give him a Baltimore Catechism for Christmas as well as a CCC. It sounds like he needs the basics in a fairly straightforward form. If you just give him a CCC he probably will not read it.

Or a dvd of Fr Corapi on Confession. He may very well hate it, but just possibly he will come to realise how little he has been taught on What Catholics believe and Why we believe it.

If the Commandments are in descending order of importance (my personal theory), God puts missing Sunday Mass as being more serious than theft or murder.

And, BTW, it is more important that we are righteous in God’s eyes than considered a “good person” according to the ways of the world.

 

[stbruno]

usccbpublishing.org/productdetails.cfm?sku=5-450

This is a link for the newly published USCatholic Catechism for Adults. Also hook him up to the website www.relevantradio.org which can be listened to online and it has programs and archived programs that deal directly with his questions.

Offer him some Catholic magazines or websites of Catholic sites, even this one where he can look up answers for himself. May spark an interest…and keep the dialog open, but as you are searching your heart for the answer, send up a silent prayer to the Holy Spirit to fill you with the right answers. I guarantee you, the Holy Spirit will inspire you and you will wonder how you did that…wonder no more…He’s always there, just ask!

Good luck and begin each thing with a prayer through the intercession of our Blessed Mother.

 

[tpw]

First of all calm down…

Secondly, I’d be very careful about “declaring mortal sin” That’s something to be examined in the context of the sacrament of reconciliation - not an office place.

Why? Because human acts take place in human contexts which are inevitably complicated. If you consider all that’s involved in classifying an action as “mortal sin” there’s a lot to unpack and that’s not going to happen during a work place conversation.

If this person is Catholic gently encourage him/her WITHOUT being judgemental to consider talking to a priest.

The CCC is one of the most dangerous tools the church has put out. Sin and its declaration are often far more complicated than “reading the CCC”. There’s a very good reason priests/lay people take semester long courses. Life isn’t simple…

Sometimes Catholics who desire simple answers - no matter what the issue - can do far more harm than good.

If nothing more pray for this person…and pray to be calm…God’s in control…not us

 

[archangel04]

First of all calm down…

Secondly, I’d be very careful about “declaring mortal sin” That’s something to be examined in the context of the sacrament of reconciliation - not an office place.

Why? Because human acts take place in human contexts which are inevitably complicated. If you consider all that’s involved in classifying an action as “mortal sin” there’s a lot to unpack and that’s not going to happen during a work place conversation.

If this person is Catholic gently encourage him/her WITHOUT being judgemental to consider talking to a priest.

The CCC is one of the most dangerous tools the church has put out. Sin and its declaration are often far more complicated than “reading the CCC”. There’s a very good reason priests/lay people take semester long courses. Life isn’t simple…

If nothing more pray for this person…and pray to be calm…God’s in control…not us

What? The CCC is one of the best tools we have against evil! There is one right way, and that’s the Catholic Church. Enough with this mentality of Burger King catholics, it’s not have it your way.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

First of all calm down…

Secondly, I’d be very careful about “declaring mortal sin” That’s something to be examined in the context of the sacrament of reconciliation - not an office place.

Why? Because human acts take place in human contexts which are inevitably complicated. If you consider all that’s involved in classifying an action as “mortal sin” there’s a lot to unpack and that’s not going to happen during a work place conversation.

If this person is Catholic gently encourage him/her WITHOUT being judgemental to consider talking to a priest.

The CCC is one of the most dangerous tools the church has put out. Sin and its declaration are often far more complicated than “reading the CCC”. There’s a very good reason priests/lay people take semester long courses. Life isn’t simple…

Sometimes Catholics who desire simple answers - no matter what the issue - can do far more harm than good.

If nothing more pray for this person…and pray to be calm…God’s in control…not us

Wow! I’m totally calm but this post is so off the wall that it’s hard to remain so.

Declaring a sin mortal is not a reconciliation issue. Absolution of one’s sins is the objective of the sacrament of reconciliation. To ask a priest to forgive one’s sins a person must examine their conscience and, to the best of their ability determine if they have committed a mortal sin. This is accomplished by comparing one’s thoughts and actions against the teachings of the Church. To commit a mortal sin 3 conditions are required.

1. It must be a grave matter
2. It must be committed with full knowledge that it is a grave matter
3. It must be committed with full consent of the will

These conditions may be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) paragraph 1857. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a fantastic compendium of the Catholic faith. It is not to difficult to understand, it is comprehensive and is an excellent guide for all Catholics. The notion that the CCC is a dangerous tool is, in itself, dangerous. This is because it suggests that one doesn’t really need to know Church teachings and they can just go along in ‘good’ non-judgmental conscience. However conscience does not rule doctrine. A well formed Catholic conscience must be formed in union with Church teachings else it is malformed. Therefore all Catholics have an obligation to know their faith. The CCC is a wonderful resource for any Catholic desiring to deepen their understanding of the faith. If they come across something they don’t understand they should ask their priest.

The documents of Vatican I (Chapter 3, On Faith, paragraph 8) explain what a Catholic must believe to be Catholic and it is doctrine! This will greatly help a person examine their conscience.

Only God can judge what is in a persons heart but we all can and must judge people’s actions (as well as are own) against Church teachings. This is a must in order to form our thoughts and our actions in accordance with Church teachings. So these things can and should be discussed openly…at home, in the workplace, at lunch, in the car etc. If the issue at hand is against Church doctrine (a grave matter as defined by the CCC), if the person knows it is a grave matter (as defined by the CCC) and if a person does it anyway (full consent of the will)…it’s a mortal sin…period.

I certainly agree that we should urge people to consult their priest where confused and we should pray for them people living outside Church teachings…but…the following scripture quote calls Catholics to action.

In

Matthew 18 14-17 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

We are called to charitably admonish our brothers. If we sit in silence while people promote moral evils e.g. abortion…we become complicit in the sin of scandal. We are called to and we should speak out.

There is nothing wrong with condemning moral issues…abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, cloning, divorce, embyonic stem cell research, homosexual marriage etc. The only things that stop most of us is courage and knowledge of the faith.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[tpw]

And MISREADING the CCC and placing oneself - notice - placing ONESELF - as the determiner of what and what is not mortal sin is the height of arrogance. It has nothing to do with “cafeteria Catholicism”. It has everything to do with over-stepping your role as a layperson.

There is a very good reason why priests spend several years in seminaries studying.
And one of them is to learn HOW to understand Catholic moral thought. Reading the catechism may tell you what may be considered sinful - it doesn’t mean you are in some privileged place to tell others how to live their lives nor are you trained enough to make determinations about the state of people’s spiritual lives.

Unless you’ve not been trained in Catholic moral thought - and I don’t mean going to a workshop on the CCC or reading the CCC and thus declaring yourself an expert on all Catholic moral thought - then you’re not in a position to be judging or certainly condemning other people. And even a priest doesn’t judge or condemn. He accompanies others on their spiritual path and serves as a guide and an agent of healing.

It is solely the role of the priest to hear confessions. I stand by what I’ve said - encourage your friend if he/she is Catholic to consult with a priest. Pay for that person…but don’t dare judge or condemn him/her. That’s not your role.

tpw

 

[tpw]

And you or I are in a position to determine what constitutes “grave matter”, whether or not the person really has “full knowledge” of the seriousness of the matter and is consenting with “full consent”? Do you really have any idea of what this means? Are you aware of any number of conditions which may limit a person’s understanding of “grave matter”, his or her “full consent” or “full knowledge”?

People’s lives are profoundly complicated…well-intended zealots can do far more harm than good.

I’d be very, very careful about declaring myself in a position to “admonish others” - especially if my only “training” is a workshop or personal reading of the CCC. It’s a very important resource - but REALLY understanding Catholic moral thought is not something one gains by going to a three hour workshop. It’s why our priests spend so long in training…

I retain my position - that’s the role of a confessor. Reading the CCC does not place you or I in a position of confessor nor arbiter of Catholic moral thought…

 

[jmcrae]

Here’s my problem,a discussion with co workers turned into debating life issues.First my catholic co worker says he thinks it is ok to allow assisted suicide and he stated that someone close to him commited suicide very violently and if this person would have had the “right” to do it legally it would have been easier for the family to handle.

Nothing would have been easy for the family to handle. Death is always messy and uncomfortable, including neatly planned murders.

Next we moved on to abortion and of course he says we can’t take away a woman’s rights.

No one has a “right” to kill another human being, especially not their own child.

From there we started talking about going to mass and I pointed out that someone could not take communion if he was in a state of mortal sin without first going to confession(from the look on his face you would have thought I told him his hair was on fire)after the initial shock he says, “what would put someone in mortal sin”?

Completely ignoring his views on life issues I pointed out that one must never miss mass without a valid reason and to keep all the commandments.He then says asks me if I think God will keep him out of heaven for not following all the church requires after all, “he is a good person”.This went on for a while and I did my best to quote scripture to show apostolic authority but time was limited.He is a decent guy but could someone give any suggestions for next time we talk?

praise be Jesus Christ!

It’s perfectly possible to be “nice,” without being “good.” Show him the distinction between the two.

There are lots of famous figures in history who were very nice people (which is how they got into power) who were anything but good - in fact, we remember them as being very evil people - mostly because they advocated for killing the weak and the sick.

 

[I_Fortuna]

1. These conditions may be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) paragraph 1857. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a fantastic compendium of the Catholic faith. It is not to difficult to understand, it is comprehensive and is an excellent guide for all Catholics. The notion that the CCC is a dangerous tool is, in itself, dangerous. This is because it suggests that one doesn’t really need to know Church teachings and they can just go along in ‘good’ non-judgmental conscience. However conscience does not rule doctrine. A well formed Catholic conscience must be formed in union with Church teachings else it is malformed. Therefore all Catholics have an obligation to know their faith. The CCC is a wonderful resource for any Catholic desiring to deepen their understanding of the faith. If they come across something they don’t understand they should ask their priest.

The documents of Vatican I (Chapter 3, On Faith, paragraph 8) explain what a Catholic must believe to be Catholic and it is doctrine! This will greatly help a person examine their conscience.

I don’t understand why you refer to Vatican I we are currently in Vatican II as you know. Please explain this to me. It appears that you conceive that Vatican I carries more weight. Is that the case?
Only God can judge what is in a persons heart but we all can and must judge people’s actions (as well as are own) against Church teachings.
Be careful, I was warned by a moderator that we are not judge our brother or sister.

This is a must in order to form our thoughts and our actions in accordance with Church teachings. So these things can and should be discussed openly…at home, in the workplace, at lunch, in the car etc. If the issue at hand is against Church doctrine (a grave matter as defined by the CCC), if the person knows it is a grave matter (as defined by the CCC) and if a person does it anyway (full consent of the will)…it’s a mortal sin…period.

We are called to charitably admonish our brothers. But we should be careful not to use negative adjectives in describing this person personally. In my belief admonishment is chairitable.

If we sit in silence while people promote moral evils e.g. abortion…we become complicit in the sin of scandal. We are called to and we should speak out.

There is nothing wrong with condemning moral issues…abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, cloning, divorce, embyonic stem cell research, homosexual marriage etc. The only things that stop most of us is courage and knowledge of the faith.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[jmcrae]

And you or I are in a position to determine what constitutes “grave matter”,

“Grave matter” is a closed set - everything that is forbidden by the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount is included. You can easily know whether the action you have committed is grave matter, or not.

whether or not the person really has “full knowledge” of the seriousness of the matter and is consenting with “full consent”?

These are unique to the individual, but again, they are knowable to the individual, and sometimes even to those around him.

If I knock a glass of milk into your lap by accident while reaching across the table for the salt, I’ve inconvenienced you, but I haven’t sinned against you. If I deliberately take and pour a glass of milk into your lap, I’ve sinned against you.

The degree of inconvenience to you is the same, but the degree to which you will take offense is multiplied by several orders of magnitude - in the first instance, you might even laugh at my blunder, but in the second instance, you will certainly become very angry with me.

Children in Grade 4 can understand the difference, here, I think it’s perfectly possible for a working man in an office to understand it, as well.

 

[tpw]

. “The only things that stop most of us is courage and knowledge of the faith.”

Interesting you mention knowledge and courage but omit prudence and justice not to mention charity… Knowledge without prudence often leads to rashness.

Prudence would dictate REALLY understanding a person’s position and asking a whole lot of questions to clarify what exactly is going on. It would also mean a lot for how one might confront someone…Questions like when, where come to mind. In short a workplace filled with other people is not necessarily the best place to carry on this type of conversation.

I will repeat what I said earlier. Unless one has taken classes in moral theology - I’d be very, very careful to claim that “my” reading of the CCC somehow makes me a definitive expert on Catholic moral life…It doesn’t…period,.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

And you or I are in a position to determine what constitutes “grave matter”, whether or not the person really has “full knowledge” of the seriousness of the matter and is consenting with “full consent”? Do you really have any idea of what this means? Are you aware of any number of conditions which may limit a person’s understanding of “grave matter”, his or her “full consent” or “full knowledge”?

People’s lives are profoundly complicated…well-intended zealots can do far more harm than good.

I’d be very, very careful about declaring myself in a position to “admonish others” - especially if my only “training” is a workshop or personal reading of the CCC. It’s a very important resource - but REALLY understanding Catholic moral thought is not something one gains by going to a three hour workshop. It’s why our priests spend so long in training…

I retain my position - that’s the role of a confessor. Reading the CCC does not place you or I in a position of confessor nor arbiter of Catholic moral thought…

You are sadly and badly misguided my friend. Please go back and read my post again. I did not put myself in the place of God to judge someone, that is between God and the person. But, I certainly am in a position to judge someone’s behavior…Hitler was an mass murderer, he may have repented at the last moment but I can say with certainty that if he didn’t he’s down below playing cards with the devil.

Your notion that you can’t admonish others is equally misguided, apparently you’ve never raised children, never told a person that it is wrong to miss mass on Sunday, nevery admonished someone not to commit other sins like adultery, stealing, lying, swearing etc. In charity we are all called to do so.

You might want to ask yourself why the Catholic Church published the Catechism in the first place, so no one will use it? Why do your think we teach the catechism to children, adults and those participating in RCIA? We teach them to understand the teachings of the Church as revealed by scripture, Apostolic Tradition (capital T) and the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium; we do so to equip them with the knowledge to know and avoid what is sinful, to follow Christ.

You don’t need to be a priest to study the faith and you don’t need some formal training to follow the doctrines of the Church but you do need to know what they are so you can faithfully keep them.

Finally, please don’t misrepresent what I have said.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I_Fortuna:
I don’t understand why you refer to Vatican I we are currently in Vatican II as you know. Please explain this to me. It appears that you conceive that Vatican I carries more weight. Is that the case?

Be careful, I was warned by a moderator that we are not judge our brother or sister.

We are called to charitably admonish our brothers. But we should be careful not to use negative adjectives in describing this person personally. In my belief admonishment is chairitable.

I am responding to the comments you made within my post. I hope this isn’t too confusing.

With respect to Vatican I and Vatican II. Vatican I is a doctrinal council while Vatican II is a pastoral council. It is a common misperception that Vatican II superceded Vatican I, it did not; doctrine is truth and truth is immutable.

Please read the following excerpt from Pope John XXIII:

Opening Speech to the
Vatican II Council
Pope John XXIII
October 11, 1962
Excerpt from Speech.
“The manner in which sacred doctrine is spread, this having been established, it becomes clear how much is expected from the Council in regard to doctrine. That is, the Twenty-first Ecumenical Council, which will draw upon the effective and important wealth of juridical, liturgical, apostolic, and administrative experiences, wishes to transmit the doctrine, pure and integral, without any attenuation or distortion, which throughout twenty centuries, notwithstanding difficulties and contrasts, has become the common patrimony of men. It is a patrimony not well received by all, but always a rich treasure available to men of good will.
Our duty is not only to guard this precious treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, pursuing thus the path which the Church has followed for twenty centuries. The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.
For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.”

With respect to your comment…

Be careful, I was warned by a moderator that we are not judge our brother or sister.

As I said in my post,

Only God can judge what is in a persons heart.

However we can and should judge people by their actions, that is permissible. Murder is murder, abortion is murder, adultery is adultery, swearing is swearing…I ain’t hangin’ with people who do these things. So while we can and should condemn these things, only God is the final arbiter of the soul.

I said,

We are called to charitably admonish our brothers.

You said,

But we should be careful not to use negative adjectives in describing this person personally. In my belief admonishment is chairitable.

I don’t believe I disparaged anyone. Having said that I don’t believe there is anything gained by beating around the bush.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

“Grave matter” is a closed set - everything that is forbidden by the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount is included. You can easily know whether the action you have committed is grave matter, or not.

These are unique to the individual, but again, they are knowable to the individual, and sometimes even to those around him.

If I knock a glass of milk into your lap by accident while reaching across the table for the salt, I’ve inconvenienced you, but I haven’t sinned against you. If I deliberately take and pour a glass of milk into your lap, I’ve sinned against you.

The degree of inconvenience to you is the same, but the degree to which you will take offense is multiplied by several orders of magnitude - in the first instance, you might even laugh at my blunder, but in the second instance, you will certainly become very angry with me.

Children in Grade 4 can understand the difference, here, I think it’s perfectly possible for a working man in an office to understand it, as well.

I think we are on the same page. I would include the constant teachings of the Magesterium and Apostolic Traditing (capital T) to your scripture references.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[jmcrae]

I think we are on the same page. I would include the constant teachings of the Magesterium and Apostolic Traditing (capital T) to your scripture references.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[tpw]

This is the problem I have re: judging someone’s behavior…

People act in many different ways when faced with circumstances you or me may not fully understand. I have no idea about why this person supports assisted suicide - nor do I know what conditions he was faced with. ALL of these are taken into account when determining the degree of culpability a person may have when making a decision.

That’s why the sacrament of reconciliation is so important. It gives a person the room to sort all this stuff out.

Charitable correction is fine - provided there is a concern for the person’s dignity. Which is why I object to admonishing someone in a public setting without taking into account the fact that one really doesn’t know everything that shaped the person’s decisions… Recall the scriptural passages from Matthew about how judgement is to be passed…With the individual alone first - then in the accompaniment of another and finally a group.

I wonder if the same manner of addressing this issue could have been handled when the person was alone. I suspect far better results may have been had.

Our disagreement has to do with the means of correcting rather than correctling itself.

I’ve seen too many situations where well-intended Catholics become zealots and in up defeating the purpose of fraternal correction. Because one can “read the catechism” doesn’t mean one is suited for some sort of fraternal correction without taking into acccount a wide variety of factors. That’s what situations like this require- taking into account ALL the factors

I also think there’s a huge difference between correcting a child and an adult. While both need to learn, they learn in different ways. And that must be kept in mind.

 

[estesbob]

I’ve seen too many situations where well-intended Catholics become zealots and in up defeating the purpose of fraternal correction. Because one can “read the catechism” doesn’t mean one is suited for some sort of fraternal correction without taking into acccount a wide variety of factors. That’s what situations like this require- taking into account ALL the factors

.

My experience is the only Catholics who find ambiguity in the Cathecism are those who disagree with what it clearly says. This is most prevalent when the Cathecism contradicts ones politcal views especially in areas regarding abortion and homosexuality.

 

[jmcrae]

Charitable correction is fine - provided there is a concern for the person’s dignity. Which is why I object to admonishing someone in a public setting without taking into account the fact that one really doesn’t know everything that shaped the person’s decisions… Recall the scriptural passages from Matthew about how judgement is to be passed…With the individual alone first - then in the accompaniment of another and finally a group.

The way I understood it, the OP was confronted in the lunch room on his coffee break with a loud co-worker shouting accusations against the Church in the hearing of a large crowd of on-lookers.

When lies are shouted in public, they should surely be refuted in public, so that the audience gets the whole story, instead of being left with the idea that we have no response to these false accusations.

 

[tpw]

Re: your reference to homosexuals I only hope your not making some sort of blanket claim that they are somehow perverse and absent of dignity…their condition is clearly irreparable…and frankly they may even be God’s challenge to us to examine our own prejudices, etc.

I’ve known some really incredible gay people who live exceptionally holy lives and yet are not part of conservative groups. And none of tthese are married. Not all gay Catholics are part of groups like Act-up or fall into the category of “gay culture”.

While I don’t support gay marriage, I’m not opposed to civil unions which do not require the support of faith communities which oppose such relationships. In fact the latter may be the only way to survive the coming constitutional debacle without destroying the country.

Re: abortion - there will always be a certain gray area, a very, very small percentage where abortion may be allowed. Recall Aquinas argued that a women impregnated by an act of violence (rape, incest, etc) was not obliged to give birth since the fetus was now an attacker…Again, it’s a small percentage…