Evangelizing cafe Catholics

[Iowa_Mike]

Iowa Mike,

First re: the nun to whom I referred…her confessor, a priest in perfectly good standing with the RCC, told her she could not be faulted in her decision to abort.

In certain extreme situations when two goods conflict (the life of mother - the life of the fetus) there are not simply good answers. It’s not as clear as you or I for that matter want it to be.

Second, homosexuality refers to an existential condition. Homosexual activities refer to actions. What is forbidden is homosexual activity, not homosexuality as an existential condition which cannot be helped anymore than heterosexuality as an existential state.

I disagree with you re: the Catechism especially on moral activities. Unless you know how to interpret the Catechism and morality you do grave danger to people whom you desire to instruct. “Lists” of sins do not identify the conditions under which people act and which affect their actions.

We are no longer unaware of conditions which shape decision-making. While we definitely hold that people are responsible for their actions, these actions are conditioned - we’re not absolutely free.

Thanks for praying for me…You too are in my prayers…

tpw

tpw,

The CCC references I provided you are very clear and represent the position of the Catholic Church. So you are not disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with the Church.

I’ve tried to find a record of the nun you referenced in an earlier post. If you are speaking of Sister Dianna Ortiz. She was kidnapped, raped and tortured beginning November 2, 1989. But, there is no record of her becoming pregnant so I must have the wrong situation. This is a link to her story:

www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cases/1996/guatemala31-96.htm

Regardless Catholic teaching would not bless the murder of an innocent child. Any priest that would say differently would also be wrong. Do you remember the controversy surrounding the rape of a nine year old girl in Brazil? She subsequently aborted the baby to the condemnation of the Church. There was a Catholic Cardinal that hinted that the abortion might have been called for and he was roundly corrected by the Church. No elective abortion is acceptable to the Church.

Check out this link for one story on the matter:

time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html

I would appreciate a link to the nun described in you post, I’d like to look into it in a bit more detail.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[tpw]

Must say I’m a little bothered that you would attempt to discredit a priest’s judgement - a priest** trained as a confessor **- which neither you nor me are - using the catechism as a bludgeon.

This is precisely the danger of the catechism. It is a resource - a very, very, very good resource - which helps frame our understanding of Catholic positions on faith and morality.

But morality is not lived in the abstract of catechetical pages - its lived in the messiness of people’s lives where conflicting goods may often times emerge. And we pray and discern to the best of our abilities.

I remain resolute in the claim I’ve made that there are no infallible teachings in the church on morality. There are infallilble NORMS. The norms are applied to concrete situations with all their messiness.

A confessor is especially important in helping us make sense of the moral choices we’ve made in the messiness of human life, offer forms of penance and forgiveness and then encouraging us forward - not keeping us immersed in suffering, despair and guilt…

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Must say I’m a little bothered that you would attempt to discredit a priest’s judgement - a priest** trained as a confessor **- which neither you nor me are - using the catechism as a bludgeon.

This is precisely the danger of the catechism. It is a resource - a very, very, very good resource - which helps frame our understanding of Catholic positions on faith and morality.

But morality is not lived in the abstract of catechetical pages - its lived in the messiness of people’s lives where conflicting goods may often times emerge. And we pray and discern to the best of our abilities.

I remain resolute in the claim I’ve made that there are no infallible teachings in the church on morality. There are infallilble NORMS. The norms are applied to concrete situations with all their messiness.

A confessor is especially important in helping us make sense of the moral choices we’ve made in the messiness of human life, offer forms of penance and forgiveness and then encouraging us forward - not keeping us immersed in suffering, despair and guilt…

tpw,

No one said anything about keeping people immersed in suffering, despair and guilt. You must know that don’t there are errant priests. How about those that have been defrocked as heretics, over sexual abuse, who got married etc. Priests are not infallible, no perfect and can and do make mistakes. If a priest told this nun getting an abortion was OK he gave her a wrong answer. No Catholic can be pro-abortion and Catholic at the same time.

There are many priests whose behavior, actions and beliefs do not comport with the teachings of the church.

The only danger in reading the Cathechism is not following what it says, that is definately dangerous to your soul.

As for your statement,

I remain resolute in the claim I’ve made that there are no infallible teachings in the church on morality.

You could not be more wrong. The Church via ex-Cathedra pronouncements, Apostolic Tradition (Capital T) and the constant teachings of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium on matters of Faith and Morals are indeed infallible. I’ve given you this reference before but I do so again because you in not accepting or investigating the truth of this have become obstinate making further discussion pointless.

CCC 2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.

Your a bright person so you can’t defy clear teaching in the CCC unless you are looking to hide from the truth.

John 18:37-40 37 Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice. 38 Pilate saith to him: What is truth?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[estesbob]

Must say I’m a little bothered that you would attempt to discredit a priest’s judgement - a priest** trained as a confessor **- which neither you nor me are - using the catechism as a bludgeon.

He didnt attempt tp discredit a Priest. The only eveidence that we have to go on that this incident happened and that the Priest told her it was ok is your rendition of what happened. Did he break the vows of confession to do this??? And since you have so much detail on this situuation can you provide us a link veryfying it? You are aware that a Priest has no authority to change Church Doctrine and if did indeed do as you claim he was wroing in the advice he gave

This is precisely the danger of the catechism. It is a resource - a very, very, very good resource - which helps frame our understanding of Catholic positions on faith and morality.

Actually the danger is lay people comeing up with extreme hypotheticals and telling people they can ignore the cathecism if circumstances are right. That is called “situation ethics:” and is condemned by the Church.

I remain resolute in the claim I’ve made that there are no infallible teachings in the church on morality. There are infallilble NORMS. The norms are applied to concrete situations with all their messiness.

Which flies in the face of 2,000 years of teachings. You have not provided one shred of evdience to support this .

A confessor is especially important in helping us make sense of the moral choices we’ve made in the messiness of human life, offer forms of penance and forgiveness and then encouraging us forward - not keeping us immersed in suffering, despair and guilt…

A confessor is as bound by the Doctrines of the Church as you or I are.

 

[Joe_5859]

Just an FYI for those who may have missed it…

The OP started this thread 3 1/2 years ago and does not appear to have been an active member of CAF since about 3 years ago.

I’m not sure she’ll be joining the conversation.

 

[CDelphine]

Just an FYI for those who may have missed it…

The OP started this thread 3 1/2 years ago and does not appear to have been an active member of CAF since about 3 years ago.

I’m not sure she’ll be joining the conversation.

Oh MAN!!! And I thought I gave her some good advice!! Oh well… then I suppose I don’t need to frustrated that the thread was hi-jacked…

 

[jmcrae]

Iowa Mike,

First re: the nun to whom I referred…her confessor, a priest in perfectly good standing with the RCC, told her she could not be faulted in her decision to abort.

Unless you were the woman involved, you have absolutely no way of knowing what advice was given in the Confessional.

In certain extreme situations when two goods conflict (the life of mother - the life of the fetus) there are not simply good answers. It’s not as clear as you or I for that matter want it to be.

Medical science has advanced a great deal, and it is possible to save both, these days. Given that it is possible to save both, the Catholic position is that we must do everything we can, to ensure that both the mother and the child survive.

 

[PJM]

=kms29;1705396]Here’s my problem,a discussion with co workers turned into debating life issues.First my catholic co worker says he thinks it is ok to allow assisted suicide and he stated that someone close to him commited suicide very violently and if this person would have had the “right” to do it legally it would have been easier for the family to handle.Next we moved on to abortion and of course he says we can’t take away a woman’s rights.From there we started talking about going to mass and I pointed out that someone could not take communion if he was in a state of mortal sin without first going to confession(from the look on his face you would have thought I told him his hair was on fire)after the initial shock he says, “what would put someone in mortal sin”?Completely ignoring his views on life issues I pointed out that one must never miss mass without a valid reason and to keep all the commandments.He then says asks me if I think God will keep him out of heaven for not following all the church requires after all, “he is a good person”.This went on for a while and I did my best to quote scripture to show apostolic authority but time was limited.He is a decent guy but could someone give any suggestions for next time we talk?

You might point out that either he is in charge or God is; can’t be both ways.

God gives to humanity alone a mind, intellect and freewill for one reason: so that we can chose to know and obey God or Disobey God. We chose heaven and we chooe hell**.[Isa. 43: 7 & 21]**

**Lev.20: 22 **“You shall therefore keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and do them; that the land where I am bringing you to dwell may not vomit you out” .

**Rev.3: 16 **“So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.”

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ **Matt.19: 17 **And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

Matt.7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".

**John.3: 36 **“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

**Rom.2: 8 **“but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”

**Luke.11: 28 **“But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

1 Peter 4: 17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? "

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

We choose heaven or we chose hell! It’s our choice.

 

[tpw]

Doesn’t this violate forum rules on charity and respect for others?

 

[tpw]

The extreme case I noted does not make me “pro-abortion”…It’s like saying a person who suffers from terrets syndrome and who curses out a policeman is “anti-authority”.

People - all the time - suffer from a variety of forms of interior crisis which may lead them not to make the best decisions. We are far more aware of this now. Somewhere in all of this there must be mercy and to be honest sometimes I don’t see that among various people in the church - and it doesn’t matter what persuasion they are.

My great concern Iowa Mike is that people become merciless, blind, zealots in advancing the various concerns of the church -no matter whether we’re talking about abortion, the death penalty, social justice, etc…

A great spiritual teacher Fr. Adrian Van Kaam at Duquesne University - now deceased - talked about “spiritual pride” where well-intentioned people claim to know all details of a person’s life and while at the same making judgements about decisions these people have made. It goes on in households, between spouses, between parents and children, between co-workers, friends and in the political forum as well. We have this terrible tendency to demonize others - when it’s we ourselves that need to take a good, close look in the mirror.

But of course this is impossible and we self-deceptively take on a guise of infallibility (I’m not talking about church structural stuff here - I’m talking personal and interpersonal) leading us to presume the capacity of judge and jury.

Again - this is my concern about people using the Catechism - rather than an extremely helpful aide to growing in understanding one’s faith - it becomes a weapon in our hands and we become “slayers for Christ” which of course has no scriptural foundation, let along foundation in tradition. We become profoundly judgemental, lacking in all forms of humility…

It’s one of the biggest dangers around now and in some part is responsible for the division in our church today. It’s not the ONLY thing - but it is contributing to it…

Just some thoughts this morning…

May each of pray to grow in humility

tpw

 

[estesbob]

It’s one of the biggest dangers around now and in some part is responsible for the division in our church today. It’s not the ONLY thing - but it is contributing to it…

Just some thoughts this morning…

May each of pray to grow in humility

tpw

The division in the Church is caused soley by those who look for loopholes in Church teachigs and/or distort church teachings to support their personal; views.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Unless you were the woman involved, you have absolutely no way of knowing what advice was given in the Confessional.

Medical science has advanced a great deal, and it is possible to save both, these days. Given that it is possible to save both, the Catholic position is that we must do everything we can, to ensure that both the mother and the child survive.

Your absolutely right that I don’t and should never know what when on in the confessional. However, it has been purported by tpw in post #35 that the priest agreed with the nun that it was impossible to carry the fetus to term.

Post #35

The attack of this nun was a profound attack on human dignity making it virtually impossible for her to function let alone carry a fetus to term. Her confessor noted the same thing…

Quite clearly if he did so, he made an error because abortion within the Catholic Church is always, even under the most dire circumstances, and intrinsic evil. Please read the following link. It is an article about an Arizona nun who incurred latae sententiae for helping procure an abortion, and the circumstances were dire.

wdtprs.com/blog/2010/05/catholic-sister-hospital-administrator-excommunicated-for-approving-abortion/

I agree that we are obliged to do everything possible in light of current medical capabilities to save both mother and child but it is never right to sacrifice the child to save the mother as hard as this might be.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[tpw]

Let me clarify myself - I certainly don’t know what the priest told this woman in the context of the confessional and those who called me on that point are right to do so. My point was he walked with her and didn’t condemn her and helped her deal with this horrible, twisted situation far, far from her own choosing.

Other priests have told me that in dealing with women who’ve had an abortion - what has brought them to the confessional was not finger-pointing, claims of baby killing, etc. It was an awareness of the existence of mercy in the Church and reconciliation in the eyes of Christ…And the desire to to be at peace with themselves…

From the tone I gather from those on this thread - it’s condemnation they eagerly look for.
Why? Good question. Tell me each of you who would condemn this person or any other person? Why are you so eager to judge? What are you looking for? Or even the nun in Arizona? Do you eagerly wait to throw first stones, light matches and so forth in great delight?

Have we become like Pharisees - see quick to condemn - but blind to questioning, humble listening and mercy? And here I extend myself to all of us - no matter what the issue: abortion, immigration, capital punishment, etc.

Jesus’ criticism of the Pharisees had most to do with their lack of mercy and simple judgementalism. The irony was they never thought they were in need of correction since they prided themselves on following the law to the letter and consequently they were somehow perfect in the eyes of God…Don’t know about the rest of you - but I would never claim the level of perfection some of you claim to have…

When I discovered as a teacher instances where a student had an abortion…I never judged her or condemned her. I encouraged her to see a priest to help her with this painful choice she had made, so they could find peace. And you know what? Many did exactly this.

Absent of mercy, but filled with self-righteous zeal and scorn for those faced with utterly terrible sitatuations? What does this do? Is this supposed to exemplify holiness and sanctity?

Interestingly, on another thread about Franz Jagerstatter who was canonized a couple of years ago for his non-violent resistance and refusal to cooperate with orders that he join the Nazi army - a woman who apparently researched him for a graduate thesis reported he never condemned bishops, priests or others who encouraged him to comply so as to provide for his family after he left the army. This despite Pius XI’s encyclical challenging the very tenets of Nazism.

All I hear on this thread is condemnation. Claims of “priests not in good standing”, “cafe Catholics”. How is this “evangelizing”?

A classmate very committed to the pro-life movement was able to acknowledge the truth of what Fr. Van Kaam was talking about when he discussed “spiritual pride”. He really ddin’t know why the women he was busy condeming had chosen abortion. Yet in his fervent desire to end abortion he never stopped to ask himself this very fundamental question. He could quote church teaching, documents of all sorts - but he never asked himself why he desired to condemn this women.

Peace be with us…

tpw

 

[jmcrae]

Let me clarify myself - I certainly don’t know what the priest told this woman in the context of the confessional and those who called me on that point are right to do so. My point was he walked with her and didn’t condemn her and helped her deal with this horrible, twisted situation far, far from her own choosing.

Other priests have told me that in dealing with women who’ve had an abortion - what has brought them to the confessional was not finger-pointing, claims of baby killing, etc. It was an awareness of the existence of mercy in the Church and reconciliation in the eyes of Christ…And the desire to to be at peace with themselves…

Right, yes. That’s how you deal with real people.

How you deal with ideas - which is what we’re dealing with on this thread - is that some ideas are damnable, some ideas are bad, and some ideas are good.

In order for an individual to discern her behaviour before the fact - that is to say, before she can kill her own child and wreck her own peace of mind - is to make sure it’s easy to pick out which ideas are bad ideas, and which ideas are damnable ideas.

That way, she won’t be misled into thinking “Abortion can be okay under some circumstances, which means that what’s in my womb isn’t really a child, yet, and abortion is a lesser crime than murder.”

From the tone I gather from those on this thread - it’s condemnation they eagerly look for.

Not at all - actually, it’s the salvation of all, and the happiness of all, that I am looking for. People cannot be happy, if they sin. Sin and happiness are opposite conditions - yes, even in this life. People who say, “I will laugh with the sinners and then make a death-bed conversion” usually end up crying all by themselves, abandoned by all, and fearful of Hell. Is that what you want, for people that you love?

Many women think that they’re fine with their abortions. Most don’t realize what they did, until they give birth to a living child, and make the connection that the living child is the same person who was moving and playing in their womb for nine months - when they make that connection, they then realize that the child they aborted was also playing happily in their womb, waiting to be born, when she deliberately killed him or her.

Then, they go crazy with grief, and some of them never recover.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Let me clarify myself - I certainly don’t know what the priest told this woman in the context of the confessional and those who called me on that point are right to do so. My point was he walked with her and didn’t condemn her and helped her deal with this horrible, twisted situation far, far from her own choosing.

Other priests have told me that in dealing with women who’ve had an abortion - what has brought them to the confessional was not finger-pointing, claims of baby killing, etc. It was an awareness of the existence of mercy in the Church and reconciliation in the eyes of Christ…And the desire to to be at peace with themselves…

From the tone I gather from those on this thread - it’s condemnation they eagerly look for.
Why? Good question. Tell me each of you who would condemn this person or any other person? Why are you so eager to judge? What are you looking for? Or even the nun in Arizona? Do you eagerly wait to throw first stones, light matches and so forth in great delight?

Have we become like Pharisees - see quick to condemn - but blind to questioning, humble listening and mercy? And here I extend myself to all of us - no matter what the issue: abortion, immigration, capital punishment, etc.

Jesus’ criticism of the Pharisees had most to do with their lack of mercy and simple judgementalism. The irony was they never thought they were in need of correction since they prided themselves on following the law to the letter and consequently they were somehow perfect in the eyes of God…Don’t know about the rest of you - but I would never claim the level of perfection some of you claim to have…

When I discovered as a teacher instances where a student had an abortion…I never judged her or condemned her. I encouraged her to see a priest to help her with this painful choice she had made, so they could find peace. And you know what? Many did exactly this.

Absent of mercy, but filled with self-righteous zeal and scorn for those faced with utterly terrible sitatuations? What does this do? Is this supposed to exemplify holiness and sanctity?

Interestingly, on another thread about Franz Jagerstatter who was canonized a couple of years ago for his non-violent resistance and refusal to cooperate with orders that he join the Nazi army - a woman who apparently researched him for a graduate thesis reported he never condemned bishops, priests or others who encouraged him to comply so as to provide for his family after he left the army. This despite Pius XI’s encyclical challenging the very tenets of Nazism.

All I hear on this thread is condemnation. Claims of “priests not in good standing”, “cafe Catholics”. How is this “evangelizing”?

A classmate very committed to the pro-life movement was able to acknowledge the truth of what Fr. Van Kaam was talking about when he discussed “spiritual pride”. He really ddin’t know why the women he was busy condeming had chosen abortion. Yet in his fervent desire to end abortion he never stopped to ask himself this very fundamental question. He could quote church teaching, documents of all sorts - but he never asked himself why he desired to condemn this women.

Peace be with us…

tpw

Thanks for the lecture which I completely reject. You are trying to take the high road but you are the only one who is making judgements, you are the one who is ignoring Catholic doctrine in favor of your personal conscience/opinions. To understand what a Catholic must believe to be a Catholic I suggest you Google the Documents of Vatican I and read paragraph 8 of Chapter 3, On Faith: It says:

Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed
which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,
and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed,
whether by her solemn judgment
or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.

These are the things a Catholic is obliged to accept and believe to be a Catholic. So at this stage I need to point out a few things to you; we are discussing Catholic doctrine as it relates to behavior e.g. abortion. It doesn’t matter if you like or don’t like the Church teachings or whether you agree or disagree with the teachings so long as you accept and obey them. The teachings of the church are summarized in the CCC. The CCC is very readable and explicit. So I don’t accept that an educated person such as yourself can’t read and understand them. Therefore, if you want to conjure up circumstances to justify your departure from Catholic teaching to ease your own conscience, knock youself out but don’t turn around and blame everyone around you for your own failings.

You views on judging behavior, abortion and homosexuality (and some other things) are disordered and outside Church teachings. Am I making a judgment here, you bet and I pray you will consult a priest and by the grace of the Holy Spirit you will be enlightened.

Since doctrine is truth and truth is immutable there can be no debate so there’s no point to further discussion.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[estesbob]

The extreme case I noted does not make me “pro-abortion”…It’s like saying a person who suffers from terrets syndrome and who curses out a policeman is “anti-authority”.

People - all the time - suffer from a variety of forms of interior crisis which may lead them not to make the best decisions. We are far more aware of this now. Somewhere in all of this there must be mercy and to be honest sometimes I don’t see that among various people in the church - and it doesn’t matter what persuasion they are.

My great concern Iowa Mike is that people become merciless, blind, zealots in advancing the various concerns of the church -no matter whether we’re talking about abortion, the death penalty, social justice, etc…

A great spiritual teacher Fr. Adrian Van Kaam at Duquesne University - now deceased - talked about “spiritual pride” where well-intentioned people claim to know all details of a person’s life and while at the same making judgements about decisions these people have made. It goes on in households, between spouses, between parents and children, between co-workers, friends and in the political forum as well. We have this terrible tendency to demonize others - when it’s we ourselves that need to take a good, close look in the mirror.

But of course this is impossible and we self-deceptively take on a guise of infallibility (I’m not talking about church structural stuff here - I’m talking personal and interpersonal) leading us to presume the capacity of judge and jury.

Again - this is my concern about people using the Catechism - rather than an extremely helpful aide to growing in understanding one’s faith - it becomes a weapon in our hands and we become “slayers for Christ” which of course has no scriptural foundation, let along foundation in tradition. We become profoundly judgemental, lacking in all forms of humility…

It’s one of the biggest dangers around now and in some part is responsible for the division in our church today. It’s not the ONLY thing - but it is contributing to it…

Just some thoughts this morning…

May each of pray to grow in humility

tpw

You seem to have a lot of contempt for those who actually follow the teachings of the Church. And as one who spent over 5 years counseling woman at a Crisis Pregancy Center i guess should be offended by your blanket condemnation of people who adhere to Church teachings on abortion but im not. I really think you are not here to convince us that Church Teachings are subjective-I think you are desperately trying to convince yourself.