Evangelizing cafe Catholics

[jmcrae]

Re: abortion - there will always be a certain gray area, a very, very small percentage where abortion may be allowed. Recall Aquinas argued that a women impregnated by an act of violence (rape, incest, etc) was not obliged to give birth since the fetus was now an attacker…Again, it’s a small percentage…

I’d love to see a reference for that, in context.

St. Thomas often writes outrageous things, and then rebuts them with Church teaching. This is the case with his supposed “anti-woman” writings - he writes outrageous things about women, and then rebuts them with the doctrine of the Church (which is very pro-woman).

In any case, I know of no current Church teaching that allows us to believe that a fetus could be an “attacker” from whom a woman could legitimately defend herself.

 

[estesbob]

Re: your reference to homosexuals I only hope your not making some sort of blanket claim that they are somehow perverse and absent of dignity…their condition is clearly irreparable…and frankly they may even be God’s challenge to us to examine our own prejudices, etc.

I’ve known some really incredible gay people who live exceptionally holy lives and yet are not part of conservative groups. And none of tthese are married. Not all gay Catholics are part of groups like Act-up or fall into the category of “gay culture”.

While I don’t support gay marriage, I’m not opposed to civil unions which do not require the support of faith communities which oppose such relationships. In fact the latter may be the only way to survive the coming constitutional debacle without destroying the country.

In short you disagree with the Church’s teaching on Homosexuality. The Church opposes Civil union as they make a mockery out of marraige and give legitmicay to a serious sin.

Re: abortion - there will always be a certain gray area, a very, very small percentage where abortion may be allowed. Recall Aquinas argued that a women impregnated by an act of violence (rape, incest, etc) was not obliged to give birth since the fetus was now an attacker…Again, it’s a small percentage…

There is not a gray area as far as Science and as far as the Church are concened.

As I said the cathecism is ambiguos only for those who disagree with what it is saying

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Re: your reference to homosexuals I only hope your not making some sort of blanket claim that they are somehow perverse and absent of dignity…their condition is clearly irreparable…and frankly they may even be God’s challenge to us to examine our own prejudices, etc.

I’ve known some really incredible gay people who live exceptionally holy lives and yet are not part of conservative groups. And none of tthese are married. Not all gay Catholics are part of groups like Act-up or fall into the category of “gay culture”.

While I don’t support gay marriage, I’m not opposed to civil unions which do not require the support of faith communities which oppose such relationships. In fact the latter may be the only way to survive the coming constitutional debacle without destroying the country.

Re: abortion - there will always be a certain gray area, a very, very small percentage where abortion may be allowed. Recall Aquinas argued that a women impregnated by an act of violence (rape, incest, etc) was not obliged to give birth since the fetus was now an attacker…Again, it’s a small percentage…

TPW,

In the words of Father Corapi…homosexuals are called to a life of celibacy. Scripture and the position of the Catholic Church is now and always has been that homosexual relationships are intrinsically disordered. It matters not one whit how a homosexual relationship is carried on…it is disordered, that includes, marriage, civil unions, partnerships et al. I have no problem with celibate homosexuals. I also know some homosexuals that are absolutely great…they are celibate, it is a cross they must carry in this life.

Your views on abortion are not in communion with the Church. You cannot be pro-abortion and be Catholic at the same time. Arguing doctrine is a waste of time…it is what it is and it will never change.

The primary reason the left i.e. liberals…progressives or whatever you want to call them are so vigorously attacking the Church is because the Church is the last bastion of moral authority. People who want to pick and choose or make circumstance based exceptions to binding Catholic teachings are not in communion with the Church.

Nobody said it would be easy.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

In short you disagree with the Church’s teaching on Homosexuality. The Church opposes Civil union as they make a mockery out of marraige and give legitmicay to a serious sin.

There is not a gray area as far as Scinece and as far as the Church are concened.

As I said the cathecism is ambiguos only for those who disagree with what it is saying

Well said…a big AMEN to you.

Iowa Mike

 

[CDelphine]

Here’s my problem,a discussion with co workers turned into debating life issues.First my catholic co worker says he thinks it is ok to allow assisted suicide and he stated that someone close to him commited suicide very violently and if this person would have had the “right” to do it legally it would have been easier for the family to handle.Next we moved on to abortion and of course he says we can’t take away a woman’s rights.From there we started talking about going to mass and I pointed out that someone could not take communion if he was in a state of mortal sin without first going to confession(from the look on his face you would have thought I told him his hair was on fire)after the initial shock he says, “what would put someone in mortal sin”?Completely ignoring his views on life issues I pointed out that one must never miss mass without a valid reason and to keep all the commandments.He then says asks me if I think God will keep him out of heaven for not following all the church requires after all, “he is a good person”.This went on for a while and I did my best to quote scripture to show apostolic authority but time was limited.He is a decent guy but could someone give any suggestions for next time we talk?

praise be Jesus Christ!

Hi kms29 – When I use the term ‘cafeteria’ Catholic, I typically mean someone who knows his/her Catholic stuff, but refuses to assent to Church teaching. This is someone who needs some apologetics-style kung-fu-type verbal exchange.
But your co-worker sounds more like someone who is practicing, but simply not well-formed or educated (catechized) in the faith. With these folks, here’s what I find effective:
*Start out most points by saying, “Well, the Church teaches…” This is a good informal teaching style, as well as a good example of your own deference to Church Teaching. In other words, this isn’t about your opinion vs. his opinion, which he’ll appreciate. Sounds like you’re doin’ this already.
*Emphasize our obligations & responsibilities in the light of free will as opposed to what he may believe are arbitrary rules & legalities. For example, one actually *can *receive the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin, and no one else would be any the wiser. But that would be woefully sinful, and it’s incumbent on the individual to examine our souls, and withhold ourselves from Eucharist if necessary.
*For questions of abortion, simply state what the Church’s teaching is, and then argue from a secular, philosophical perspective. Poorly catechized folks may not have the spiritual framework to see abortion as a spiritual (or even moral) wrong. Very sad but true in our society. Check out Feminists for Life website for points. Or Peter Kreeft’s website.

So my short answer is: focus on being a catechism teacher and a good example. Use every opportunity you can to be deferential to the Church. And to be a happy and content Catholic.
God bless you both!!

 

[tpw]

No gray areas hmmm…consider this one …

A nun, a catechist in Guatemala is kidnapped, PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED, GANG-RAPED and left to die. She is able to escape only by the grace of God. Upon returning to her mother house it is discovered she is pregnant. She’s barely holding on to her sanity and hardly physically fit to go through a pregnancy. On consultation her community and this nun decide the only option they have it to abort.

This is an extreme case of course. But as I said EXTREMES challenge norms and is the very reason why in CONCRETE SITUATIONS with all the complicating factors of such a situation a person does the best he or she can. Her confessor later told her that in such a gruesome situation her response and that of her community made perfect sense.

We believe in a merciful God NOT SOME VICIOUS, HEINOUS MONSTER. What part of God is love, don’t you understand?

 

[tpw]

Homosexuals do the best they can…just like heterosexuals. They fail just as those of us who are heterosexual fail. And some lead extraordinary lives of virtue…in fact far more than some heterosexual people.

You do not understand the meaning of the term intrinsically disordered and would best consult a knowledgeable moral theologian - and not read your own biases into a reading of the CCC.

I do not support abortion in 99% of the cases. There are always extremes which challenge norms…a reason why NO MORAL TEACHING OF THE CHURCH HAS EVER BEEN DECLARED INFALLIBLE.

Vatican I declared the pope was infallible when declaring on matters of faith and morals. Yet it is only the Marian dogmas where infallibility has been declared. The moral norms - note NORMS - are infallible.

People’s lives are not lived in some safe, secure, black and white world…we err because of fear, because we misread situations, because of psychological disturbances, ignorance and of course sin. The former are what complicate our situations.

The role of the magesterium is to help us overcome ignorance by holding up norms to guide our daily decision-making which isn’t always easy because of the rate of social and cultural change we’ve endured especially in the past one hundred years.

A good confessor is trained to discern the difference between matters of conscience and matters where a person is suffering from some sort of psychological mallady including scrupulosity.

Contrary to your unwarranted assertion - I do not “attack the church”. I pray daily and have for years. I listen, study, follow the norms and do the best I can like everyone else as I strive to grow in holiness. And last time I checked growth in holiness takes a lifetime…not simply reading the CCC and presuming myself to be a saint.

 

[estesbob]

No gray areas hmmm…consider this one …

A nun, a catechist in Guatemala is kidnapped, PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED, GANG-RAPED and left to die. She is able to escape only by the grace of God. Upon returning to her mother house it is discovered she is pregnant. She’s barely holding on to her sanity and hardly physically fit to go through a pregnancy. On consultation her community and this nun decide the only option they have it to abort.

This is an extreme case of course. But as I said EXTREMES challenge norms and is the very reason why in CONCRETE SITUATIONS with all the complicating factors of such a situation a person does the best he or she can. Her confessor later told her that in such a gruesome situation her response and that of her community made perfect sense.

We believe in a merciful God NOT SOME VICIOUS, HEINOUS MONSTER. What part of God is love, don’t you understand?

I didnt think we killed people for the sins of their fathers. Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[jmcrae]

No gray areas hmmm…consider this one …

A nun, a catechist in Guatemala is kidnapped, PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED, GANG-RAPED and left to die. She is able to escape only by the grace of God. Upon returning to her mother house it is discovered she is pregnant. She’s barely holding on to her sanity and hardly physically fit to go through a pregnancy. On consultation her community and this nun decide the only option they have it to abort.

I can’t even imagine that taking place - are you sure you read the story rightly? My impression of Guatamalan nuns is that they would have done everything possible for their sister, and raised the child as a child of the community.

This is an extreme case of course. But as I said EXTREMES challenge norms and is the very reason why in CONCRETE SITUATIONS with all the complicating factors of such a situation a person does the best he or she can. Her confessor later told her that in such a gruesome situation her response and that of her community made perfect sense.

The baby wasn’t guilty of any crime - and certainly nothing that deserves the death penalty.

We believe in a merciful God NOT SOME VICIOUS, HEINOUS MONSTER. What part of God is love, don’t you understand?

Which part don’t you understand. Only a total monster would think it was okay to kill a defenseless unborn baby in the one place that he should be perfectly safe - in his mother’s womb.

 

[tpw]

Do you understand the term “norms”? What happens when something far outside “the norm” takes place?

This isn’t the case of a wayward teenager or a a person who is misled by an impulsive lover. This woman was the victim of a hideous and heinous crime. To expect her to give birth is nothing short of insanity. To give some romantic and pietistic label of “heroic virtue” in such a case is a profound misuse of the term.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

No gray areas hmmm…consider this one …

A nun, a catechist in Guatemala is kidnapped, PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED, GANG-RAPED and left to die. She is able to escape only by the grace of God. Upon returning to her mother house it is discovered she is pregnant. She’s barely holding on to her sanity and hardly physically fit to go through a pregnancy. On consultation her community and this nun decide the only option they have it to abort.

This is an extreme case of course. But as I said EXTREMES challenge norms and is the very reason why in CONCRETE SITUATIONS with all the complicating factors of such a situation a person does the best he or she can. Her confessor later told her that in such a gruesome situation her response and that of her community made perfect sense.

We believe in a merciful God NOT SOME VICIOUS, HEINOUS MONSTER. What part of God is love, don’t you understand?

Here’s what I understand, God is love and he loves every one of the babies murdered by abortion. You are on the otherside of Catholic teaching. Catholic theology and teaching are very clear on abortion. So what you propose in your 1 in a million example is that, based upon circumstances, it’s OK to ignore doctrine. Ain’t so!

Here’s where this kind of thinking has led:

• The family can’t afford another child, solution abortion.
• This pregnancy would interfere with our vacation to Europe, solution abortion.
• I got drunk at a party and was raped now I’m pregnant, solution abortion.
• It was a one night stand and she got pregnant, solution abortion.

This list could go on forever because circumstances can always be found to justify, in someones mind, an abortion. As evidence I offer you the statistices…over 50 million aborted babies since Roe v Wade. If you ask these women why the got an abortion they will all offer some “circumstances” that support their decision.

God is the father of life. Your life doesn’t belong to you it belongs to Him so He decides when life begins and when life will end. That’s why the Church condemns euthanasia, suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, abortion, embryonic stem cell research, cloning or anything else that takes these decisions from God’s hands.

You can’t be pro-abortion and a Catholic at the same time.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Do you understand the term “norms”? What happens when something far outside “the norm” takes place?

This isn’t the case of a wayward teenager or a a person who is misled by an impulsive lover. This woman was the victim of a hideous and heinous crime. To expect her to give birth is nothing short of insanity. To give some romantic and pietistic label of “heroic virtue” in such a case is a profound misuse of the term.

The only thing that supports your stance on abortion is your opinion and your opinion is wrong.

The baby in the nuns womb is a “person” not a blob of cells. If people like you would leave the babies alone they would develop, be born and live the life God gave them.

You rail on about the CCC and complain that people don’t have the training to interpret or understand theology. So I find it a bit contradictory when you make judgments that clearly conflict with Church teaching. Do you have some special knowledge or training that empowers you to ignore the teachings of Christ as laid down in scripture, Apostolic Tradition (capital T) and interpreted by the Magesterium? If you do I’d like to know what they are.

If you are a Catholic, you are called to obedience to Church teachings, even the ones you don’t like. The Church teaches that abortion is murder…what part of murder is normal?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Homosexuals do the best they can…just like heterosexuals. They fail just as those of us who are heterosexual fail. And some lead extraordinary lives of virtue…in fact far more than some heterosexual people.

You do not understand the meaning of the term intrinsically disordered and would best consult a knowledgeable moral theologian - and not read your own biases into a reading of the CCC.

I do not support abortion in 99% of the cases. There are always extremes which challenge norms…a reason why NO MORAL TEACHING OF THE CHURCH HAS EVER BEEN DECLARED INFALLIBLE.

Vatican I declared the pope was infallible when declaring on matters of faith and morals. Yet it is only the Marian dogmas where infallibility has been declared. The moral norms - note NORMS - are infallible.

People’s lives are not lived in some safe, secure, black and white world…we err because of fear, because we misread situations, because of psychological disturbances, ignorance and of course sin. The former are what complicate our situations.

The role of the magesterium is to help us overcome ignorance by holding up norms to guide our daily decision-making which isn’t always easy because of the rate of social and cultural change we’ve endured especially in the past one hundred years.

A good confessor is trained to discern the difference between matters of conscience and matters where a person is suffering from some sort of psychological mallady including scrupulosity.

Contrary to your unwarranted assertion - I do not “attack the church”. I pray daily and have for years. I listen, study, follow the norms and do the best I can like everyone else as I strive to grow in holiness. And last time I checked growth in holiness takes a lifetime…not simply reading the CCC and presuming myself to be a saint.

tpw,

I’m not sure who you are talking to but I am responding as if you directed your comments to me.

Homosexuality. You said,

Homosexuals do the best they can…just like heterosexuals. They fail just as those of us who are heterosexual fail. And some lead extraordinary lives of virtue…in fact far more than some heterosexual people.

You do not understand the meaning of the term intrinsically disordered and would best consult a knowledgeable moral theologian - and not read your own biases into a reading of the CCC.

I do not support abortion in 99% of the cases. There are always extremes which challenge norms…a reason why NO MORAL TEACHING OF THE CHURCH HAS EVER BEEN DECLARED INFALLIBLE.

You don’t have to be a priest to understand the CCC,

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

You said,

NO MORAL TEACHING OF THE CHURCH HAS EVER BEEN DECLARED INFALLIBLE.

Your understanding of infallibility is flawed. The CCC states,

2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.

You point out that the pope is infallible regarding faith and morals. The constant teaching of the Church is that abortion is an intrinsic evil and this has been upheld through the ages by all popes. The Church’s teaching on abortion is infallible and cannot be changed.

About the Magisterium you said,

The role of the magesterium is to help us overcome ignorance by holding up norms to guide our daily decision-making which isn’t always easy because of the rate of social and cultural change we’ve endured especially in the past one hundred years.

The roll of the Magisterium is defined in the CCC as follows:

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

The constant teachings of the Magisterium in and of themselves are infallible; when the pope speaks formally from the Chair of Peter, as popes have done many, many times over the ages…infallible; Apostolic Tradition (T)…infallible and scripture as interpreted and taught by the Magisterium…infallible.

You’ve aready made clear that your views on homosexuality and abortion leave room for exceptions that are clearly in conflict with Church teachings. And I think it is save to conclude that you believe, wrongly, that your personal conscience trumps Church teachings, it does not.

The passages from the CCC are clearly instructive and are not difficult to understand. However, when a person (as I sometimes am) is confused about a teaching I consult my priest for direction.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[estesbob]

Do you understand the term “norms”? What happens when something far outside “the norm” takes place?

This isn’t the case of a wayward teenager or a a person who is misled by an impulsive lover. This woman was the victim of a hideous and heinous crime. To expect her to give birth is nothing short of insanity. To give some romantic and pietistic label of “heroic virtue” in such a case is a profound misuse of the term.

For what other crimes to do you feel killing the offenders child is appropriate?

 

[tpw]

And when does a fetus become an enemy? Aquinas argued that in certain cases that’s exactly what happens. I’m not talking about some of the situations you noted…one night stand and becoming pregnant, etc.

The attack of this nun was a profound attack on human dignity making it virtually impossible for her to function let alone carry a fetus to term. Her confessor noted the same thing…

I’m not interested in idle and romantic claims of “heroic virtue” and that one should destroy oneself to give birth which is exactly what was taking place at the time. Unless you demonstrate equal regard and mercy for the mother then it’s hard to say what becomes of a pro-life position.

All conditions are not equal Iowa Mike…it’s not simply black and white all the time…

 

[Iowa_Mike]

And when does a fetus become an enemy? Aquinas argued that in certain cases that’s exactly what happens. I’m not talking about some of the situations you noted…one night stand and becoming pregnant, etc.

The attack of this nun was a profound attack on human dignity making it virtually impossible for her to function let alone carry a fetus to term. Her confessor noted the same thing…

I’m not interested in idle and romantic claims of “heroic virtue” and that one should destroy oneself to give birth which is exactly what was taking place at the time. Unless you demonstrate equal regard and mercy for the mother then it’s hard to say what becomes of a pro-life position.

All conditions are not equal Iowa Mike…it’s not simply black and white all the time…

Tpw,

I don’t argue doctrine because there is no point, truth does not change. You are on the wrong side of Catholic doctrine…you should see a priest.

Your arguments conflict with one another. On the one hand you argue that without that a person cannot read and interpret the CCC without theological training…Then on the other hand you take a position on homosexuality and abortion that are clearly in conflict with immutable Church teachings; teachings that are regularly and publically put for by Catholic priests, bishops and the pope himself. Where is your theological training to take such a position?

You cannot be a Catholic and oppose Church teachings on abortion, hmosexuality or other points of doctrine.

I’m praying for…

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[jmcrae]

And when does a fetus become an enemy? Aquinas argued that in certain cases that’s exactly what happens.

No - Aquinas was putting words in the mouth of an imaginary person - someone who is an enemy of the faith. His style of writing was to create a dialogue between “the idiot” and “the scholar.”

Into the mouth of “the idiot” he puts the words, “The fetus can become an enemy of the mother, and thus, it is okay to kill him.”

Then, Aquinas goes on to give the correct teaching of the church, which is that the fetus is always innocent - it is not morally possible for the fetus to sin against his mother, and thus, abortion is always and everywhere a grave evil.

The attack of this nun was a profound attack on human dignity making it virtually impossible for her to function let alone carry a fetus to term. Her confessor noted the same thing…

And how does killing her child by the violent “medical procedure” of ripping and tearing it out of her body (since they don’t just nicely beam it out with a Star Trek transporter, you know!!) either take away the trauma of the rape, or cure her of any illness?

It is far more likely to just be a second trauma, from which she must also recover, on top of the trauma of the rape, etc.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

No - Aquinas was putting words in the mouth of an imaginary person - someone who is an enemy of the faith. His style of writing was to create a dialogue between “the idiot” and “the scholar.”

Into the mouth of “the idiot” he puts the words, “The fetus can become an enemy of the mother, and thus, it is okay to kill him.”

Then, Aquinas goes on to give the correct teaching of the church, which is that the fetus is always innocent - it is not morally possible for the fetus to sin against his mother, and thus, abortion is always and everywhere a grave evil.

And how does killing her child by the violent “medical procedure” of ripping and tearing it out of her body (since they don’t just nicely beam it out with a Star Trek transporter, you know!!) either take away the trauma of the rape, or cure her of any illness?

Enlightening and wonderful answer.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

It is far more likely to just be a second trauma, from which she must also recover, on top of the trauma of the rape, etc.

 

[tpw]

Iowa Mike,

First re: the nun to whom I referred…her confessor, a priest in perfectly good standing with the RCC, told her she could not be faulted in her decision to abort.

In certain extreme situations when two goods conflict (the life of mother - the life of the fetus) there are not simply good answers. It’s not as clear as you or I for that matter want it to be.

Second, homosexuality refers to an existential condition. Homosexual activities refer to actions. What is forbidden is homosexual activity, not homosexuality as an existential condition which cannot be helped anymore than heterosexuality as an existential state.

I disagree with you re: the Catechism especially on moral activities. Unless you know how to interpret the Catechism and morality you do grave danger to people whom you desire to instruct. “Lists” of sins do not identify the conditions under which people act and which affect their actions.

We are no longer unaware of conditions which shape decision-making. While we definitely hold that people are responsible for their actions, these actions are conditioned - we’re not absolutely free.

Thanks for praying for me…You too are in my prayers…

tpw

 

[tpw]

There are very, very, very few situations like the one I described.

When the church’s teaching on abortion developed they certainly were not considering situations in which a woman is kidnapped, psychologically and physically tortured, gang raped and then becomes pregnant. This is hardly a loving relationship and doesn’t even compare to situations where a woman is raped and becomes impregnated.

Frankly, if the church expected women facing such brutal conditions to carry a fetus to term, I’d question whether or not we are Christ’s church…

tpw