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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
Juan Diego was an Aztec: not Spanish.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Yes, and his conversion was as a result of Spanish missionaries evangelising him, his wife and his uncle. He was a devout Catholic (as a result of evangelisation by Spanish priests several years prior to this) when Our Lady appeared to him.
What point are you trying to make by stating this fact?
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BlueMaxx
Guest
Cortés, Cortés…what a killer… Plenty bad man…Brendan_64:
Given how Spanish-Aztec relations played out, I wouldn’t exactly consider that a model of missionary work.
Ahhh Neil…
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Great culture they have there.
They ought to be dragged off their island to face justice for murdering people. Justice is a universal human concept.
It’s ridiculous to force these people to live in these uncivilised conditions through forced isolation by the authorities. There’s always a way to open communication with a culture. We should try and do that and actually communicate with these people. It’s only then we’d truly know what they want. You can’t assume people wouldn’t want to join the rest of society if they don’t even have a chance.
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Cruciferi
Guest
We don’t have to “Protect” them. Like the Amish we “can” respect their wishes. However, we should have dialogue to prevent international incidents and needless bloodshed.
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Lara
Guest
There’s nothing wrong with leaving them alone. Chau should have tried to convert in New York the same number as possibly exist on the island.
I’ve spent years trying to get people to see things the Catholic way, even on this website, and the fruits are very lean! Converting people is next to impossible. When you hear of people converting, it’s often because of their unusual perception of a pretty normal thing, not the result of somebody singing hymns in their ears or somebody talking. Often, it’s due to their spouse wanting them to convert for marriage.
I’ve spent years trying to get people to see things the Catholic way, even on this website, and the fruits are very lean! Converting people is next to impossible. When you hear of people converting, it’s often because of their unusual perception of a pretty normal thing, not the result of somebody singing hymns in their ears or somebody talking. Often, it’s due to their spouse wanting them to convert for marriage.
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13pollitos
Guest
Well, in many ways that foreign invader was a ticking time bomb. All it would take is a cough or a sneeze and the island inhabitants would be gone. We aren’t talking about a normal situation here. Is it murder? I have no clue, but I can see a case being made for self defense.
What is known about this culture besides they do not want to be contacted?
What is known about this culture besides they do not want to be contacted?
blackforest
Well-known member
I doubt the Sentinelese are aware of potential infectious pathogens.
I don’t agree with what this young man did, and believe he acted unwisely. But it seems like too much of the Internet, (not necessarily you), is cheering on his death.
I don’t agree with what this young man did, and believe he acted unwisely. But it seems like too much of the Internet, (not necessarily you), is cheering on his death.
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13pollitos
Guest
No, I’m definitely not cheering on his death. I just have a hard time believing that he is a martyr.
They most likely do not know about germs, but the obviously fear contact. Something has to have happened to make them that fearful. Something has made them decide it is better to be alone. That SHOULD be respected.
They most likely do not know about germs, but the obviously fear contact. Something has to have happened to make them that fearful. Something has made them decide it is better to be alone. That SHOULD be respected.
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Dhc8_Type
Guest
First off he could have had any number bacteria or viral infections that we have immunity to that the as an isolated tribe don’t.
Secondly the Indian govt says it’s against the law to go there.
Thirdly it’s not murder when you don’t get the message two times before it’s leading canadiate for Darwin Award of the year.
Secondly the Indian govt says it’s against the law to go there.
Thirdly it’s not murder when you don’t get the message two times before it’s leading canadiate for Darwin Award of the year.
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TK421
Guest
This is an interesting question because the Church as we know it came into existence throughout Europe and the rest of the world by… well…. doing a lot of walking into places where we weren’t necessarily invited or wanted. None of us would be having this conversation because we’d either be pagan, atheist, or dead.
But since we now know better than we ever have before, we have a responsibility to be a lot more careful. That man was brave (braver than over 99% of people) and well-intentioned but could easily have been carrying something that had the potential to exterminate the entire island.
Beyond that, first contact with Neolithic cultures is difficult. It’s so often the case that they are introduced to a new and exciting culture only to find themselves exploited and exposed to the many addictive aspects of society, such as cigarettes, alcohol, and these days, smart devices.
But ultimately, I don’t think keeping them isolated indefinitely is the right thing to do either. The reason this tribe is so hostile to outsiders is because they’ve had reoccurring bad encounters going back to at least the 19th century with a British captain who kidnapped several of the island’s children. It’s a delicate situation, which is why the Indian government has put a restriction on the island.
If we truly believe that the Church is real and legitimate, then we must believe that its message and teachings bring joy to those who hear it and follow it, and joy to the fullest. To say that Neolithic cultures are free and in a state of paradise is very much false. I’ve seen a lot of comments online from people that seem to think this way, and it is naïve. That island without question has problems such as an extremely high child and mother mortality rate, sparse resources, low life expectancy, etc., as well as their own daily domestic problems. Technology, art, medicine, education, and other arts & fields are also all inherently good, but they are dangerous if not introduced carefully.
But since we now know better than we ever have before, we have a responsibility to be a lot more careful. That man was brave (braver than over 99% of people) and well-intentioned but could easily have been carrying something that had the potential to exterminate the entire island.
Beyond that, first contact with Neolithic cultures is difficult. It’s so often the case that they are introduced to a new and exciting culture only to find themselves exploited and exposed to the many addictive aspects of society, such as cigarettes, alcohol, and these days, smart devices.
But ultimately, I don’t think keeping them isolated indefinitely is the right thing to do either. The reason this tribe is so hostile to outsiders is because they’ve had reoccurring bad encounters going back to at least the 19th century with a British captain who kidnapped several of the island’s children. It’s a delicate situation, which is why the Indian government has put a restriction on the island.
If we truly believe that the Church is real and legitimate, then we must believe that its message and teachings bring joy to those who hear it and follow it, and joy to the fullest. To say that Neolithic cultures are free and in a state of paradise is very much false. I’ve seen a lot of comments online from people that seem to think this way, and it is naïve. That island without question has problems such as an extremely high child and mother mortality rate, sparse resources, low life expectancy, etc., as well as their own daily domestic problems. Technology, art, medicine, education, and other arts & fields are also all inherently good, but they are dangerous if not introduced carefully.
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Yep. And this is backed up by the way they murder outsiders.
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
You’re saying that devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe was a Spanish success, when credit is due wholly to Mary (not Spanish) and Juan Diego (also not Spanish). The whole reason Mary’s image is on the tilma is because JD wasn’t being believed by the Spanish archbishop.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Non starter.
It’s not for anyone but the North Sentinelese to decide what is in their best interest. They have made it obvious for centuries that they do not think sustained contact with outsiders is in their best interest.
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13pollitos
Guest
Which also means they have no way to gauge foreign morals either. Also, killing and murder are not the same thing. Murder has a set criteria to face. Does this fit? I don’t really know either way, but I know that these people are terrified of intruders. They have made that perfectly clear for many years. Someone invaded their property. In many places it is legal to shoot or otherwise kill an unauthorized intruder in your home.
blackforest
Well-known member
Hey, I agree. He had no business going there.
I’ll concede that we don’t really know their motive for killing him. Maybe it’s a religious teaching?
I’ll concede that we don’t really know their motive for killing him. Maybe it’s a religious teaching?
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13pollitos
Guest
Modern day societies are also slaves to sin, and just a savage as well. Yet, we have been evangelized. Maybe we should focus on freeing ourselves rather than leading others down with us.
And the thing about actual slaves, it is wrong to free someone and leave them with no sort of support. If someone knows no other way of life, they will not be able to survive if just suddenly their source of housing and food is taken from them. That requires time and communication. That is lacking with this group. No one Can communicate with them. How will they be able to truly learn new ways? Evangelizing and education can only come AFTER communication and trust are established.
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TULIPed
Guest
This discussion reminds me of a story I heard once of another small island, in the midst of a vast sea. The island was inhabited by a bloodthirsty, ignorant, amoral, primitive, group of people. Across the ocean there was powerful and loving King. The King sent spies to the island, and - in spite of the islanders great hostility toward him - loved the people there. The spies tried to teach the islanders about the King - and for the most part, they were all killed or driven away. And so one day, the King sent his only son to the island to teach the people about love and mercy and forgiveness. And the vile islanders tortured and killed the King’s only son, all the while convinced they knew what was best for themselves.
I know this is a hard question for Christians to grapple with - how do we carry out the Great Commission and yet also hold it in tension with loving our neighbor as ourselves (what’s best for our neighbor today?). I don’t have an answer - but I think that Mr. Chau was motivated by love for our great King. God rest his soul.
I know this is a hard question for Christians to grapple with - how do we carry out the Great Commission and yet also hold it in tension with loving our neighbor as ourselves (what’s best for our neighbor today?). I don’t have an answer - but I think that Mr. Chau was motivated by love for our great King. God rest his soul.
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KevinK
Guest
This description of others and the zeal to “spread the word” are the reason behind so many Christian atrocities.
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