Evangelizing remote tribes

[AZ42]

They ought to be dragged off their island to face justice for murdering people. Justice is a universal human concept.

And how would that be done without even more killed. They will not go peacefully with you to be punished for defending their land.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

This discussion reminds me of a story

Are you comparing the North Sentinelese people to the nation of Israel, to whom God revealed himself time and again through the prophets, by using a sub-par version of the parable of the Tenants?

 

[goout]

Salmonslayer:

These primitive savages are slaves to sin, as we all are. We were given a commission by Christ to spread His word, and He didn’t give any exceptions.

This description of others and the zeal to “spread the word” are the reason behind so many Christian atrocities.

I get the sentiment, but zeal to spread the Gospel and derogatory descriptions are not part of the same message. One can be zealous and respect people at the same time.

 

[goout]

goout:

All you have to do is look at modern western culture to see the problem with this line of thinking.

What point are you making? That the Aztec practice of ongoing large scale human sacrifice ought to have been respected by the Spanish?

My point is that evangelization is not just for others who we deem ignorant.
Mother Teresa’s point of view is that we in the west are the most impoverished culture, precisely because we practice large scale human sacrifice.
Ok, and at the same time we imagine that evangelization is for others who are ignorant, and evangelization will solve the social problems of the ignorant.

Again, a good evangelist always knows who he/she is, and who he is evangelizing. And that the good news is reciprocal.

A good evangelist practice wisdom and prudence in addition to having zeal.

 

[Brendan_64]

Thirdly it’s not murder when you don’t get the message two times before

So if a particularly zealous Jehovah Witness kept coming to your house to try to convert you and you didn’t want him to come, you could shoot and perhaps wound him on his first two attempts and then shoot him dead on his third time and it would all be his fault and not murder on your part?

 

[TULIPed]

I would say I’m comparing the North Sentinelese people to all of us, to whom God revealed himself time and time again through the prophets, by using a grossly sub-par, sentimental and overly simplified fairly-tale like very short story. Any semblance to any parable is purely accidental

 

[Brendan_64]

My point is that evangelization is not just for others who we deem ignorant.
Mother Teresa’s point of view is that we in the west are the most impoverished culture, precisely because we practice large scale human sacrifice.

So the Spanish should just have respected the Aztecs culture of bloody sacrifice on a huge scale? They should have said, “Who are we to tell these people how to live?We ought to respect their culture and leave them to it.”?

And as for wholesale abortion, which I believe Mother Teresa was talking about, I don’t think that was the case with 16th century Spanish culture.

The notion that the Spanish should have left the Aztecs to their own religion and not tried to convert them is crazy and would seem to run contrary to the Gospel.

 

[Brendan_64]

You’re saying that devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe was a Spanish success, when credit is due wholly to Mary (not Spanish) and Juan Diego (also not Spanish). The whole reason Mary’s image is on the tilma is because JD wasn’t being believed by the Spanish archbishop.

If the Spanish hadn’t been there to evangelise in the first place, Juan Diego would not have been a Catholic. Without his existing faith how would he have known the significance of Mary? And the flowers (Spanish roses) were the sign for the bishop, the tilma was a sign for the people of that land.

Without the Spanish priests spreading the word of God so that some (including Juan Diego) were converted and that others were at least familiar with the Christian faith. Yes Mary is responsible, but the Spanish prepared the ground.

The notion that the Spanish should have stayed away and let the Aztecs and others just get on with their business doesn’t make sense.

 

[13pollitos]

That’s not really what was being said; however, the way the Spanish treated (and in some cases continue to treat) the indigenous of Latin America was horribly wrong. The indigenous groups are still discriminated against, called derogatory names, treated as stupid, made fun of, and marginalized by the mostly European societies.emphasized text

 

[13pollitos]

There are much better ways to “spread the gospel” than it was done in the past. We can see where God brings blessings from curses in many parts of life. That is one of them.

 

[13pollitos]

I am sorry you see things that way.

 

[goout]

TheAmazingGrace:

You’re saying that devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe was a Spanish success, when credit is due wholly to Mary (not Spanish) and Juan Diego (also not Spanish). The whole reason Mary’s image is on the tilma is because JD wasn’t being believed by the Spanish archbishop.

If the Spanish hadn’t been there to evangelise in the first place, Juan Diego would not have been a Catholic. Without his existing faith how would he have known the significance of Mary? And the flowers (Spanish roses) were the sign for the bishop, the tilma was a sign for the people of that land.

Without the Spanish priests spreading the word of God so that some (including Juan Diego) were converted and that others were at least familiar with the Christian faith. Yes Mary is responsible, but the Spanish prepared the ground.

The notion that the Spanish should have stayed away and let the Aztecs and others just get on with their business doesn’t make sense.

You are taking my point in a distorted context.

 

[Brendan_64]

You are taking my point in a distorted context.

How am I doing this?

 

[13pollitos]

Never said it was rosy. It wasn’t in Europe either. It’s called human nature.

 

[BlueMaxx]

I think your view of history is a tad skewed…

 

[blackforest]

You’re contradicting yourself.

He was walking in with the intent of totally transforming their way of life (for the better, but still) its natural for people to seek to preserve their society and culture against foreign influence. They reacted in accordance with their custom and values.

That being said, they defended their borders, and fought to keep their way of life intact. I can respect that, even if they’re wrong.

 

[13pollitos]

All cultures do things that are nasty. Rounding up complete strangers from other parts of the world to enslave. Killing in order to gain territory. Aborting or abandoning unwanted children. Leaving the elderly to die. It’s not unique to any one area, even if the way it looks is different.

 

[goout]

Question: which culture in human history has murdered more people than any other?
Do we consider that culture to be as ignorant as the tribal people in question?

If not, how is it the we have lost good Christian perspective on evangelization.

 

[13pollitos]

How many live the gospel now that they are evangelized and converted?

 

[Usagi]

They ought to be dragged off their island to face justice for murdering people. Justice is a universal human concept.

Yeah, that’s gonna work. Again, no language in common; no experience with (or consent to) outside legal systems. I understand the principle you’re trying to defend, but some things just aren’t workable.

Further, while “don’t murder” is likely a universal precept, it takes a lot of experience and thinking for a culture to expand the idea of murder from “don’t kill other innocent members of our group” to “don’t kill any innocent person.” Even we, allegedly advanced and sophisticated and with the advantage of knowing God’s Word, don’t always manage it.

And, of course, even if the people in question do have universal concepts of humanity and the wrongness of murder, cultures differ in what they consider an innocent person. “Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again” is a half-joking sign you can find in rural areas of the United States. If these people consider their island to be theirs, and off-limits to outsiders, then killing an interloper (especially a multiple offender like Chau) is no more murder than a homeowner killing an intruder. An American can hardly call other people savages for having an equivalent of the castle doctrine.

Further, they are a sovereign state. Literally, they are defined as such in Indian law — and surely, even if they weren’t, the very universal principles of justice you cite would require treating them as such. You don’t go snatching the citizens of a sovereign state to try them under foreign laws.

It’s ridiculous to force these people to live in these uncivilised conditions through forced isolation by the authorities. There’s always a way to open communication with a culture. We should try and do that and actually communicate with these people. It’s only then we’d truly know what they want. You can’t assume people wouldn’t want to join the rest of society if they don’t even have a chance.

They know about us. They like some of our goods. They don’t let people visit for more than a very limited time, and not always even that. Sure, they don’t know the full extent of what the rest of the world has achieved in terms of medicine and other technologies, but there are limits to how many people we are willing to assault or have assaulted in order to explain that.

In case you missed it before, the Sentinelese have no immunity to foreign diseases. Europeans killed 90% of the population of North America just by bringing germs here, before they even started killing people on purpose. If you value these people’s health, we shouldn’t go near them.

However good our intentions, you can’t just integrate Stone Age people into the modern world by fiat. Even if they were more amenable to discussion, they have no context for understanding the outside world. I don’t think they’re intellectually incapable or anything, but at least at first it would be like aliens abducting them or sticking them with needles or whatever. I understand that you’re okay with forcing ourselves on them, but I am not, and neither is the government of India.