Even if Hell is a choice, what good reason to God allow?

[Thorns]

What is goodness in your mind? The god in the bible does some pretty bad things. I certainly wouldn’t call that god good.

But lets pretend that there is a good god. Is he omnipotent? Can he not come up with a scenario to save the ones who reject him from torment? Caring for those who hurt or reject you, that is true goodness.

What did God do that was not good?

What you propose is a paradox. How can one reject to be in the presence of all that is good and yet, want to be in a place where good (the same good they rejected) exists?

 

[SilverCamellia]

Is it possible for a Catholic (or other Christian) to believe they are living a God-pleasing life and are destined for heaven, when in fact past sins and various bad choices in their current life would condemn them to hell?

This is what scares me a bit: nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, but if say you did something displeasing to God one day even though you lead a relatively ‘good’ life, and you don’t think it warrants God’s wrath, but then you die and God says, 'On October 31 2013 you did “whatever the offending sin was” and you say, ‘That? I thought it didn’t need confessing’ etc. Would you go to hell? Or is that what purgatory is for?

 

[Tom_Baum]

You don’t understand hell. The people in hell WANT to be there. They REJECTED God, and any place is better for them than heaven, where God is forced upon them.

Nobody is dragged, kicking and screaming, into hell, protesting that there must be some mistake. Those in hell CHOSE to be there, and that’s where they PREFER to be.

God could, if he wanted, drag those people kicking and screaming OUT of hell and forcibly place them in heaven. But God doesn’t work that way.

Do you understand hell?

How do you know that those in hell WANT to be there?

Have you ever been to hell?

How do you know how God works since you said, “God doesn’t work that way”?

Interesting statements from God: “My Ways are not your ways, My Thoughts are not your thoughts” and “With man it is impossible, with God ALL things are possible”, since God is GOOD, according to God-Incarnate, I would say that the “ALL things” could be translated as “ALL GOOD THINGS”.

So many seem to think that God’s Mercy is just as skimpy as some of our ideas of mercy and that God’s Justice is just as, if not more, blood-sucking as some of our ideas of justice, could be we are attempting to bring God down to our level rather than at least praying for our level to be raised.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God exists in past, present, and future and transcends all time. Every soul has been conceived of in the mind of God from eternity to eternity. There was never a point where a creature was not known by God. God will not change eternity by foregoing creating those who reject Him, because it would be allowing evil to triumph over good by manipulating the actions of God. The creature would be dictating the actions of the Creator. This is inconceivable. God’s conceived plan for every rational creature is the Beatific Vision. Hell is the deviation of God’s plan by his creation. It is a wasteland of eternal evil, swelling with incurable vice and barren of all graces. There is no happiness to be found in this, ever.

You wrote, “God’s conceived plan for every rational creature is the Beatific Vision”.

Since it is “God’s conceived plan”, according to what you wrote, and it is written in the bible that it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved”, why do you think that so many seem to not believe it is possible and/or don’t even want it to be? .

Maybe we should pray as God-Incarnate taught us, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”, even tho it seems, as I already wrote, that so many do not believe it is even possible for God and much sadder that so many don’t even seem to want it to be, any thoughts on praying as Jesus taught us?

 

[Amandil]

*double post

 

[Amandil]

Will there be real joy for you in heaven, knowing you’re loved ones will experience this?

The question you’re asking is that if God or the blessed in heaven can somehow blackmailed by the knowledge of those in hell.

Well, what do you think?

 

[Bobby_Jim]

So is it truly a free choice if the people who choose to reject God don’t know or understand what they’re in for? Like if one of the main methods of the Devil is to convince people that he doesn’t exist (and likewise that Hell doesn’t exist), how can we say people are freely choosing that as their destination for all eternity?

 

[Amandil]

Bobby Jim11740993:

So is it truly a free choice if the people choose to reject God don’t know or understand what they’re in for? Like if one of the main methods of the Devil is to convince people that he doesn’t exist (and likewise that Hell doesn’t exist), how can we say people are freely choosing that as their destination for all eternity?

You made that very choice when you chose to follow the Catholic Faith. You didn’t know with any certainty what the consequences of that choice entail, I would argue even now that still holds true since our knowledge of eternity while here on earth is still incomplete.

Regardless, and I’ll say it again, we all know enough about God and are given sufficient grace from God to be held accountable to Him, de fide.

So ignorance of the consequences of sin is no excuse for committing sin. We are all given sufficient grace to choose the good that we ought to do and avoid the sin that we ought to avoid.

Secondly, do you understand that hell is not an arbitrary punishment, as if God didn’t need to send people there but does so anyway?

Hell is not arbitrary, it is not based upon positivist legal theory. Hell is the natural consequence of the abuse of free will towards self-will and self-love independent of God.

A real (but rather tragic) analogy is to look at a person who is chronically addicted to narcotics or some other excess. They have completely lost themselves in their drug of choice. So much so that they call themselves “an addict”. They have completely defied the drug that they love more than anything else, be it work or sleep or loved ones. That drug is their world. They spend all their time and energy to obtain it, yet at tje same time it is destroying them. They have no individual identity away from the drug.

The idiom “you are (or become) what you eat (consume)” becomes reality. One calamity after another-loss of work, loss of health, loss of family and friends-instead of them being remedial and redirecting that person back towards freedom, instead they cannot give up their self-created “reality”. They aren’t even themselves anymore, they have lost all individuality, tjey are no longer distinguishable from the drug they love.

That becomes hell when you replace “drug” with sin.

The Redemption offered by Christ, His offer of forgiveness along with our necessary repentance, works like reverse epoxy-separating the sinner from the sin.

Those who refuse the remedy that Christ offers, who refuse to be separated from sin but instead continue to be identified with it, God cannot and will not allow sin to exist in His kingdom, and sin must receive its just condemnation on the Last Day.

And the choice will be irrevocable, because the reprobate will not give up the sin they love more than God, and God will not allow them into heaven without them giving up their sins.

That is the tragic truth.

 

[Kay_Cee]

It’s an interesting choice: Love me and do as I say or burn.

Wow, was I surprised to see this. You’ve practically quoted a line from my next novel, which is coming out this spring. (It will be free online, just like my other book.) In the scene, God has told the angels He is going to create a new sentient life form called man, and he tells the angels they will serve these new beings. When Lucifer objects, the angels are shown Hell.

Here’s a snippet of that scene with God’s reply:

“Behold the face of tyranny!” Lucifer thundered. “Is that your idea of choice, Creator? Do what you say or you burn us?”

“I am showing you truth,” the Creator said. “Hell is existence without my Love. It is my Love that sustains the beauty and order of things. Without my Love, you have not good but evil. Without it, you have not pleasure but pain. Without it, you have not perfection but chaos. Lucifer, to serve Man is to Love. To choose the opposite is to choose Hell.”

That’s why Hell is so horrible: it’s existence without God. But God allows us to choose this. Otherwise, God Himself would be evil because he would be forcing us to love.

 

[Amandil]

I know. Her statement is a rather ridiculous dichotomy. She fails to realize that the consequence of not loving the Source of all Reality does in fact mean the loss of reality, with all the subsrquent freedom, beauty, and goodness that comes with it.

That we are to love God not because He needs us to, but because we need to in order to be fulfilled (for that is the very purpose of our existence).

 

[dronald]

You don’t understand hell. The people in hell WANT to be there. They REJECTED God, and any place is better for them than heaven, where God is forced upon them.

Nobody is dragged, kicking and screaming, into hell, protesting that there must be some mistake. Those in hell CHOSE to be there, and that’s where they PREFER to be.

God could, if he wanted, drag those people kicking and screaming OUT of hell and forcibly place them in heaven. But God doesn’t work that way.

I don’t get why people try to explain Hell using some type of Philosophy that is not in the Bible. I don’t know a Scripture that says what you say, rather:

"Luke 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame. ’

25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us. ’

27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house –

28 for I have five brothers { Or b brothers and sisters b } – so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ’

29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. ’

30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. ’

31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead. '"

 

[TRH1292]

I don’t get why people try to explain Hell using some type of Philosophy that is not in the Bible.

Christians use philosophy that is not in the bible to understand the Trinity.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I don’t get why people try to explain Hell using some type of Philosophy that is not in the Bible. I don’t know a Scripture that says what you say, rather:

"Luke 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame. ’

25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us. ’

27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house –

28 for I have five brothers { Or b brothers and sisters b } – so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ’

29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. ’

30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. ’

31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead. '"

Jesus spoke this parable before He went to the cross.

 

[dronald]

Jesus spoke this parable before He went to the cross.

Irrelevant.

His teaching wasn’t only for those who were with Him and before Him at that time. Likewise, Revelation gives a painful explanation of the lake of fire.

I don’t take issue with these philosophical ideas that we can exchange; but stating them as if they are truth can’t be done. We have no idea what the suffering of Hell would be like apart from what Scripture tells us.

We likely will regret that we didn’t choose God, but to claim that we will wish that we were in a Lake of sulfur and fire as opposed to with God I do doubt. The man in Hell wished he could be out, and I don’t see why the lake of fire will be any different.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Irrelevant.

His teaching wasn’t only for those who were with Him and before Him at that time. Likewise, Revelation gives a painful explanation of the lake of fire.

I don’t take issue with these philosophical ideas that we can exchange; but stating them as if they are truth can’t be done. We have no idea what the suffering of Hell would be like apart from what Scripture tells us.

We likely will regret that we didn’t choose God, but to claim that we will wish that we were in a Lake of sulfur and fire as opposed to with God I do doubt. The man in Hell wished he could be out, and I don’t see why the lake of fire will be any different.

Don’t you think that what Jesus did on the cross changed some “things”?

You wrote, “We have no idea what the suffering of Hell would be like apart from what Scripture tells us.”

You might not but that doesn’t mean that others don’t.

God can and does reveal things that you might not believe God capable of doing.

Doesn’t it say that hell, among other things so to speak, is thrown into the “lake of fire”?

You also wrote, " to claim that we will wish that we were in a Lake of sulfur and fire as opposed to with God I do doubt. The man in Hell wished he could be out, and I don’t see why the lake of fire will be any different."

I don’t know who you are addressing this to but I have said many times that hell is beyond horrible and that I am thankful that God indeed has a Plan that ALL can be thankful for.

 

[dronald]

Don’t you think that what Jesus did on the cross changed some “things”?

You wrote, “We have no idea what the suffering of Hell would be like apart from what Scripture tells us.”

You might not but that doesn’t mean that others don’t.

God can and does reveal things that you might not believe God capable of doing.

Doesn’t it say that hell, among other things so to speak, is thrown into the “lake of fire”?

You also wrote, " to claim that we will wish that we were in a Lake of sulfur and fire as opposed to with God I do doubt. The man in Hell wished he could be out, and I don’t see why the lake of fire will be any different."

I don’t know who you are addressing this to but I have said many times that hell is beyond horrible and that I am thankful that God indeed has a Plan that ALL can be thankful for.

I agree with you. I was responding to those who state a sort of philosophical argument that, “we choose hell, continue to choose hell and hate God in hell.” Although all those things could be true, we certainly have no idea what the mindset will be.

Things may have been changed, but we have no idea what or how. All we know is we want to stay out, and we cannot apart from Christ.

 

[Amandil]

We likely will regret that we didn’t choose God, but to claim that we will wish that we were in a Lake of sulfur and fire as opposed to with God I do doubt. The man in Hell wished he could be out, and I don’t see why the lake of fire will be any different.

If by “we” I hope that you’re not asserting that you are one of the reprobate, just saying…

Secondly, do you understand the principle of natural law in regards to sin? What I mean by that is that sin is it’s own punishment. By the very act of committing sin you not just offend God’s justice(which is more than just an arbitrary legal code) but you create a break in that relationship. Sin separates us from God, its creates separation between us and other humans, and sin separates us from ourselves.

Do you know the story of The Lord of the Rings or the Hobbits by J.R.R. Tolkien? (Don’t laugh), look at the creature Gollum. That character is a great illustration of someone who is absorbed or consumed by sin (as Gollum was consumed by the Ring). He hated anything we would consider good, he hated light, he had no real identity (he gave up his name), he hated everything except eating(which is a common literary device symbolic of disordered love, e.g.imagine how often people who see cute animals or babies and want to “eat them up”) and the Ring.

Gollum hated himself because he loved and hated the Ring, he could never be rid of his need for it.

People in hell will hate God because He requires that they throw away their “ring”. God will suffer nothing to rival the very purpose by which He created us, which is to love Him and our neighbors.

People in hell refuse to love anything more than the sin they they love most, their “ring”. And because God requires that they do, because God requires obedience, to the reprobate God is a tyrant who robs them of their “freedom” and “independence” to love what they want.

So, yes, they will hate God. Just as Satan and his angels hate God.

 

[dronald]

If by “we” I hope that you’re not asserting that you are one of the reprobate, just saying…

Secondly, do you understand the principle of natural law in regards to sin? What I mean by that is that sin is it’s own punishment. By the very act of committing sin you not just offend God’s justice(which is more than just an arbitrary legal code) but you create a break in that relationship. Sin separates us from God, its creates separation between us and other humans, and sin separates us from ourselves.

Do you know the story of The Lord of the Rings or the Hobbits by J.R.R. Tolkien? (Don’t laugh), look at the creature Gollum. That character is a great illustration of someone who is absorbed or consumed by sin (as Gollum was consumed by the Ring). He hated anything we would consider good, he hated light, he had no real identity (he gave up his name), he hated everything except eating(which is a common literary device symbolic of disordered love, e.g.imagine how often people who see cute animals or babies and want to “eat them up”) and the Ring.

Gollum hated himself because he loved and hated the Ring, he could never be rid of his need for it.

People in hell will hate God because He requires that they throw away their “ring”. God will suffer nothing to rival the very purpose by which He created us, which is to love Him and our neighbors.

People in hell refuse to love anything more than the sin they they love most, their “ring”. And because God requires that they do, because God requires obedience, to the reprobate God is a tyrant who robs them of their “freedom” and “independence” to love what they want.

So, yes, they will hate God. Just as Satan and his angels hate God.

As big of a fan that I am of LoTR, I question where in the Bible you have received this from? And if it’s a statement of dogma within the CC, I ask you to provide such a document?

I’m not arguing that you can be right, I’m saying that you can’t be certain because you just can’t possibly know.

 

[mikekle]

So, Hell must be an enjoyable place then, relatively speaking. No regrets.

For those that have lived their earthly lives without God in it and lived a secular lifestyle, filled with sex, drugs and rock and roll, then Yes, hell is probably enjoyable to them, as it will basically just an extension of their earthy life or an existence without God in it.

 

[mikekle]

I don’t get why people try to explain Hell using some type of Philosophy that is not in the Bible. I don’t know a Scripture that says what you say, rather:

"Luke 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame. ’

25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us. ’

27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house –

28 for I have five brothers { Or b brothers and sisters b } – so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ’

29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. ’

30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. ’

31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead. '"

No one knows if those verses are meant to be taken literally or otherwise though…Just as other verses that seemingly imply things, but really do not, as they are only meant to be taken as symbolistic, metaphorically, etc