Even the bishops' conference loves the gay cowboy movie

[Brad]

Orionthehunter:

But with regard to the movie in question, the homosexual acts were not shown graphically.

The fact that we even have to think about them is sufficiently degrading to the intellect.

 

[YinYangMom]

Brad:

The fact that we even have to think about them is sufficiently degrading to the intellect.

But you don’t have to think about them.
You don’t have to see the film.
The review did not recommend that you do.
That’s the point of the thread.
The thread, because of the article’s title, came off as though the review would show the bishops ‘loved’ the movie, when in fact, when one reads the review there’s no way one can reasonably conclude they did, when the review clearly points out the various ways the film is against Catholic teachings and even with the original “L” rating (though now, “O”), never suggested we should all run out to see the movie.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

I don’t know what advocacy journalism is.
What I do know is Matt Sheppard was brutally murdered as was Brandon Teena and those other victims in Chicago - for being homosexual.

Are you disputing that?

Actually, I dispute why Shepherd was murdered. I will post the link that says he was killed during a drug deal gone bad, not a hate crime. abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=277685&page=1

The links you provide do not seem to make the case there is a systemic problem of violence against a certain group of people.

 

[Brad]

YinYangMom:

Did a google search:

lesbianation.com/
"Fear Stalks Chicago Gay Community
04.07.04

By Steph Smith
(Chicago, Illinois) Four unsolved gay murders in Chicago’s North Side gay neighborhood have the community nervous and angry at police. The most recent killing, was two weeks ago, the others go back several years, but community activists say all the murders have chilling similarities.

All of the victims were found stabbed to death, face down, in their homes. The crimes scenes were marked by unusual violence, yet there were no signs of forced entry…"

News from lesbian nation? Murders over several years? Done by heteroseuxals or homosexuals? What was the motive?

Not enough info here. This is all unfounded assumptions.

YinYangMom:

Though I was trying to find the one about Matt Shephard, the college kid who was beaten to death…

There was just a recent network station that interviewed the killers in jail and they confirmed it was a drug-induced situation and had nothing to do with homosexuality.

YinYangMom:

Ah, but it’s ok to produce films which depict the sufferings of the ‘general’ population without automatically giving it an ‘O’ rating?

No - if they are portraying a sinful lifestyle in a graphic manner and subvertly giving the lifestyle an ok - it should be at best an O.

YinYangMom:

But not in this film.

It’s a key motive of the film.

YinYangMom:

Let’s take that premise…say there’s a news story out there, perhaps similar to one from the above references…which upon investigation revealed a cruel end of life to a good person. We discuss it here on the boards - the tragedy, the immorality, etc. - and then someone writes a screenplay about it, and the screenplay gets picked up and a movie made about it. You’d want that movie automatically rated “O” because of the tragic immoral ending? (Note, I did not say it was a gay person…it could have been any person).

See first answer above.

YinYangMom:

Considering 84% of Americans are Christian, the odds are rather high that those committing the hate crimes are Christian, not all, but if a group of 5 guys set out to do damage, I’d wager 1 or 2 are church-going.

And still no facts but pure conjecture.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

But you don’t have to think about them.
You don’t have to see the film.
The review did not recommend that you do.
That’s the point of the thread.
The thread, because of the article’s title, came off as though the review would show the bishops ‘loved’ the movie, when in fact, when one reads the review there’s no way one can reasonably conclude they did, when the review clearly points out the various ways the film is against Catholic teachings and even with the original “L” rating (though now, “O”), never suggested we should all run out to see the movie.

Also disturbing is Forbes’s attempt to downplay the fact that this is a pro-homosexual “message film.” He argues:

“But the pain Jack and Ennis cause their families is not whitewashed. (The women are played with tremendous sympathy, not as shrill harridans.) It’s the emotional honesty of the story overall, and the portrayal of an unresolved relationship – which, by the way, ends in tragedy – that seems paramount.”

This account seems intended to leave the reader with the impression that the pain caused to the two gay characters’ wives and children (they married women after they began their homosexual relationship) and the fact that their relationship ultimately ends tragically are supposed to detract from the idea that the film is broadcasting a message.

This is sheer spin.

Akin writing in:markshea.blogspot.com/

 

[fix]

Brad:

And still no facts but pure conjecture.

You are being kind. The implication is most attackers are hypocritical Christians. What a stereotype. Would such broad brush painting be *tolerated *toward any other group?

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

Actually, I dispute why Shepherd was murdered. I will post the link that says he was killed during a drug deal gone bad, not a hate crime. abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=277685&page=1

The links you provide do not seem to make the case there is a systemic problem of violence against a certain group of people.

Re: Shepard…so the guy beat the heck out of him out of rage…he now says the rage was the result of meth, yet the rage occurred after Shepard grabbed the guys leg. Guess we’ll never know the killers’ hearts, though there are certainly various rationales for their actions afloat.

But for now, let’s take Shepard off the hate-crime list…
Brandon’s still there…
as are the Chicago victims…
Do a google search on “Hate Crimes” and you’ll find more than ample evidence of homosexuals being brutally beaten and killed.

As for the drugs/alcohol involved, why would this surprise anyone? Many homosexuals struggle with these other addictions as well. The question comes to the assaulters and killers…what is their motive for treating any human so horribly?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Brad:

Would someone be a liarphobe if we were indeed incorrectly raising homosexuality to be the gravest sin and they didn’t like that?

Or would someone be an overly presumptuous liarphobe if we wer not raising homosexuality to be the gravest sin but it was perceived that way because we were pointing out that it was wrong?

If someone is strongly against murder then are they murderphobic or are they just reasonable?

All I am saying is that there is a clamoring for the application of a standard for this movie just because of its subject matter that isn’t applied to movies concerning other deadly sins. Furthermore, if the application of this standard were applied to movies concerning the other deadly sins, the rating system would be such that the “O” rating would have to be applied to well in excess of 50% of the films.
Finally, if a rating system is such that the predominant rating is a single category, the rating system provides insufficient distinction to provide good information.

Nobody (at least I don’t) thinks that homosexuality isn’t a sin. Why do you keep raising that red herring?

The issue for me is that people have misrepresented the USCCB’s review by calling it “glowing” and that they “love” the movie and/or they advocate a standard that singles out this particular deadly sin different from other deadly sins.

I don’t deny that we are within our rights to criticize constructively individual Bishops but all faithful orthodox Catholics should express the criticism with care, discretion and charity.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

Re: Shepard…so the guy beat the heck out of him out of rage…he now says the rage was the result of meth, yet the rage occurred after Shepard grabbed the guys leg. Guess we’ll never know the killers’ hearts, though there are certainly various rationales for their actions afloat.

But for now, let’s take Shepard off the hate-crime list…
Brandon’s still there…
as are the Chicago victims…
Do a google search on “Hate Crimes” and you’ll find more than ample evidence of homosexuals being brutally beaten and killed.

As for the drugs/alcohol involved, why would this surprise anyone? Many homosexuals struggle with these other addictions as well. The question comes to the assaulters and killers…what is their motive for treating any human so horribly?

We all agree murder is bad. What I am not buying is an epidemic of violence directed at a specfic group of people. I am not saying it does not occur. I am saying it is not as wide spread as some would have us believe and I certainly do not believe the violence is promoted by speaking up against things that are immoral.

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

We all agree murder is bad. What I am not buying is an epidemic of violence directed at a specfic group of people. I am not saying it does not occur. I am saying it is not as wide spread as some would have us believe and I certainly do not believe the violence is promoted by speaking up against things that are immoral.

Fix, I do agree with you here. While we all agree that hate crimes are abhorrent, what underlies them is a view that a particular trait, characteristic, or disorder is so heinous that it merits special “treatment.” For me, that is why I’ve tried to argue against singling out the subject matter of this movie for special “treatment” when there are equally sinful subject matters in other movies and they all should be treated in the same manner and have the same standard applied.

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

You are being kind. The implication is most attackers are hypocritical Christians. What a stereotype. Would such broad brush painting be *tolerated *toward any other group?

Ok then, where is your evidence (and Brad’s) that hate crimes against homosexuals are not done by Christians?

My conclusion is based on statistics - the 84% Christian one recently released. What statistics is yours based on?

You know there are scores of Christians and Catholics who read and preach but fail to live the live fully. Why would it be so surprising to you that Christians do indeed commit heinous crimes against people, let alone homosexual people? Take into consideration also, that many of these crimes involve drugs and alcohol…are you so surprised to learn so many Christians succumb to these addictions and therefore are incapacitated enough to react violently?

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

What I am not buying is an epidemic of violence directed at a specfic group of people.

I’m not selling an epidemic. But do the google search and you’ll find way too many reports of violence directed toward gays, enough to reasonably conclude that hate is the reason for the violence - and homosexuality is a trigger-mechanism…one among many others. One cannot pretend the issue isn’t real and thus ignore it.

fix:

I certainly do not believe the violence is promoted by speaking up against things that are immoral.

Neither do I.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

Ok then, where is your evidence (and Brad’s) that hate crimes against homosexuals are not done by Christians?

My conclusion is based on statistics - the 84% Christian one recently released. What statistics is yours based on?

You know there are scores of Christians and Catholics who read and preach but fail to live the live fully. Why would it be so surprising to you that Christians do indeed commit heinous crimes against people, let alone homosexual people? Take into consideration also, that many of these crimes involve drugs and alcohol…are you so surprised to learn so many Christians succumb to these addictions and therefore are incapacitated enough to react violently?

Christians are sinners. Why specfically attempt to make a case that attackers and Christians are related in some way? What is the point? The attackees may also claim to be Christian, should I conclude that to be Christian means I am in danger of being attacked?

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

Christians are sinners. Why specfically attempt to make a case that attackers and Christians are related in some way? What is the point? The attackees may also claim to be Christian, should I conclude that to be Christian means I am in danger of being attacked?

For the sake of the integrity of this thread, I’m up for dropping this line of discussion…it’s been taken way off track.

 

[joyfulmess]

Orionthehunter:

Fix, I do agree with you here. While we all agree that hate crimes are abhorrent, what underlies them is a view that a particular trait, characteristic, or disorder is so heinous that it merits special “treatment.” For me, that is why I’ve tried to argue against singling out the subject matter of this movie for special “treatment” when there are equally sinful subject matters in other movies and they all should be treated in the same manner and have the same standard applied.

Consider this;

TACIT…etymology: French or Latin meaning “silent”

TACIT KNOWLEGE…Knowlege that enters into the production of behaviors and/or the constitution of mental states but is not ordinarily accessible to consciousness.

 

[geezerbob]

This thread has wandered far off topic and is now closed.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

This thread has wandered far off topic and is now closed.