Ever hear of John MacArthur? He is a particularly hostile Protestant.

[jim1130]

----- continued -----

A fellow named John MacArthur, who has a radio program called “Grace to You” has a particularly anti-Catholic bias. He says that the Mass is anti-Christian on this link: gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=231486. He also has numerous links on his website that accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary. What do you think is the best response to this fellow?

“Really, you’d have to believe that the two greatest hoaxes that have ever been perpetrated on the world in any connection with Christianity are that the Pope is the representative of Jesus Christ in the world and that Mary is the source of all spiritual graces. Two horrific lies right out of the pit. Pagan/goddess worship dressed up in Roman Catholic fantasy, just as idolatrous as the ancient worship of the Semitic goddess Astarte known as Ishtar, originally among the Babylonians. The veneration shown to Mary in Roman Catholicism is no less offensive than the worship of Ishtar and Astarte. The worship of Semiramis, the worship of Isis. It is no less offensive to God than the worship that King Manasseh gave to the Tyrian goddess Asherah.”

Paralleling Catholicism with heathen gods and empires is repulsive, but it endorses his agenda.

“Father, this is so difficult for us to talk through these things and yet so necessary because it must be addressed…it must be addressed.”

MacArthur comes to the rescue!

Interesting that MacArthur says “But Satan steals the glory of God whenever he can.” Is there not an example of Satan using Scripture for his personal agenda? (Matthew 4:6).

Without using the same style of narrative prose of MacArthur, my opinion is that he possesses such little respect for his listeners that he must think of them as stooges with wallets. Pure and simple, he is a propagandist and opportunist who feeds on the insecurities, weaknesses, and naiveté of his listeners. To add insult to injury, at the end of each of his rambling diatribes, he presents the occasion for the minions to purchase his wares.

 

[Church_Militant]

The bondage you have placed yourself under …

Wanna open a thread on this allegation and watch us demolish it?

Just more rhetorical terminology to poison the well of any attempt at real discussion.

Bet ya learned that from your pastor as well. :whacky: :banghead:

CM :yawn:

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

Wanna open a thread on this allegation and watch us demolish it?

Just more rhetorical terminology to poison the well of any attempt at real discussion.

Bet ya learned that from your pastor as well. :whacky: :banghead:

CM :yawn:

That’d be as fruitful as two one legged men in a butt kicking contest.

 

[flameburns623]

As it happens, I don’t agree with the Catholic distinctions between latria, dulia, and hyperdulia: I probably agree with MacArthur that the veneration of saints in the RCC diminishes those saints and detracts from the worship owed only and always exclusively to God Almighty. I do not believe that the veneration of saints honors the God those saints worshipped. I feel strongly that such veneration borders on idolatry in the best case; it the worst cases, as with the contemporary cult of rampant Catholic Mariolatry, it expressly IS idolatry. Even your late Pope JPII put more hope and faith in the sinful creature of God through whom God elected to send His Son, than in the Son Himself, as reflected in John Paul’s life-motto and his Papal crest. Unlike MacArthur, I have great hope that God has forgiven JPII of this idolatrous wickedness and that the late Pope will be among the Elect on the last Day.

I do agree with my Catholic friends here that John MacArthur ought to build his case against Roman Catholicism based NOT on popular misapprehensions of Catholic theology: he should root his criticisms in a proper analysis of actual RCC doctrine, drawn directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, from Conciliar and Encyclical documents, and from authoritative sources widely accepted by Catholics themselves. Apparently, at least some of MacArthur’s critique of the RCC is based upon very bad historical sources (i.e., the Semiramis mythos) and he needs to re-think how he couches his arguments in those areas. One might consider that MacArthur is not first and foremost an anthropologist nor an historian, but a pastor: he likely depends to a great degree on second-hand and third-hand research. He ought still to engage in sufficient self-criticism to correct himself when he finds that his sources are inaccurate, but there is no shame in the fact that he does and will at times make mistakes.

I still haven’t seen a great deal of effort, beyond the Semiramis issue, to document where MacArthur does actually get RCC theology wrong. Perhaps some of the Catholics will take the time to cite specific sermons or writings of his and then show us how MacArthur has gotten things wrong.

 

[pnewton]

MacArthur: “Now if that is not worship, I don’t know what worship is.”

flameburns623:

As it happens, I don’t agree with the Catholic distinctions between latria, dulia, and hyperdulia: I probably agree with MacArthur that the veneration of saints in the RCC diminishes those saints and detracts from the worship owed only and always exclusively to God Almighty

There is a common error and misconception in both of these statements. One can not argue over others emotions, feelings or beliefs. I say that I love my father more than my mother, no one but me has any basis for arguement. If I say my Rosary does not detract from my worship to God, it is absurdity to have an opinion on me. So, yes, MacArthur does not know what worship is, if he thinks it he can apply his subjective point of view objectively to anyone else.

I have plenty in my life that detracts from worship of God and prayer to the Father (or Son). My other devotions have never been a detraction.

Let me throw out an analogy. Let us say you have been negligent in prayer or Bible study for a few weeks. Would bumping into your pastor and visiting with him at the supermarket detract from your prayer time, or serve as a kick-in-the-butt reminder to renew your relationship with God?

 

[Fidelis]

As it happens, I don’t agree with the Catholic distinctions between latria, dulia, and hyperdulia: I probably agree with MacArthur that the veneration of saints in the RCC diminishes those saints and detracts from the worship owed only and always exclusively to God Almighty. I do not believe that the veneration of saints honors the God those saints worshipped. I feel strongly that such veneration borders on idolatry in the best case; it the worst cases, as with the contemporary cult of rampant Catholic Mariolatry, it expressly IS idolatry. Even your late Pope JPII put more hope and faith in the sinful creature of God through whom God elected to send His Son, than in the Son Himself, as reflected in John Paul’s life-motto and his Papal crest. Unlike MacArthur, I have great hope that God has forgiven JPII of this idolatrous wickedness and that the late Pope will be among the Elect on the last Day.

I do agree with my Catholic friends here that John MacArthur ought to build his case against Roman Catholicism based NOT on popular misapprehensions of Catholic theology: he should root his criticisms in a proper analysis of actual RCC doctrine, drawn directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, from Conciliar and Encyclical documents, and from authoritative sources widely accepted by Catholics themselves. Apparently, at least some of MacArthur’s critique of the RCC is based upon very bad historical sources (i.e., the Semiramis mythos) and he needs to re-think how he couches his arguments in those areas. One might consider that MacArthur is not first and foremost an anthropologist nor an historian, but a pastor: he likely depends to a great degree on second-hand and third-hand research. He ought still to engage in sufficient self-criticism to correct himself when he finds that his sources are inaccurate, but there is no shame in the fact that he does and will at times make mistakes.

I still haven’t seen a great deal of effort, beyond the Semiramis issue, to document where MacArthur does actually get RCC theology wrong. Perhaps some of the Catholics will take the time to cite specific sermons or writings of his and then show us how MacArthur has gotten things wrong.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but you have not offered any evidence for your own views (which, frankly, are fully as bigoted and misinformed as MacArthur’s) than MacArthur has, and much less that people in this thread have. As we used to say when we were kids, “You’re saying so, doesn’t make it so.”

Rather than toss out a bunch of unrelated and unsupported charges and expect us to swallow it, I invite you to start a seperate thread on each of these and defend it.

 

[flameburns623]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but you have not offered any evidence for your own views (which, frankly, are fully as bigoted and misinformed as MacArthur’s) than MacArthur has, and much less that people in this thread have. As we used to say when we were kids, “You’re saying so, doesn’t make it so.”

Rather than toss out a bunch of unrelated and unsupported charges and expect us to swallow it, I invite you to start a separate thread on each of these and defend it.

I didn’t make any “charges”. I simply affirmed that, apparently in concert with John MacArthur, I don’t concur with the Catholic cultus of saints. I don’t find the distinctions made by Roman Catholics between “veneration”. “latria” “dulia” and “hyperdulia” to be convincing. The fact of the matter is that “latria”, “dulia”, and “hyperdulia” are simply Latin words synonymous with one another and synonyms for the English word “worship”. The English word “veneration” is simply a synonym for the English word “worship”, (which, tangentially, is why Pope Clement XI forbade the Chinese practice of “veneration” of ancestors).
pneuton:

. . . . If I say my Rosary does not detract from my worship to God, it is absurdity to have an opinion on me. So, yes, MacArthur does not know what worship is, if he thinks it he can apply his subjective point of view objectively to anyone else.

I have plenty in my life that detracts from worship of God and prayer to the Father (or Son). My other devotions have never been a detraction.

Pneuton: sorry but prayer, within Christian theology, is an act of worship. Since Your rosary is addressed NOT to God but to Mary, you are guilty of worshipping Mary in place of God, whether you so intend or not. “Devotions”, likewise, are an act of worship. If you are engaged in devotions addressed to any being or thing other than God Almighty, you are guilty of worshipping something other than God Almighty–whether this is your intent or not.

If I bump into my pastor at the supermarket, I neither ‘pray’ to him, in the Biblical and Christian sense, nor do I perform “devotions” to him. Your analogy is not analogous to what Roman Catholics actually do.

Ergo I am simply saying that I apparently agree overall with John MacArthur’s critique of Catholicism on the issue of hagiology. I might well not agree with his specific arguments on that issue–nor he with mine–but we apparently each feel that the RCC is wrong-headed with respect to the ways in which it honors the saints.

 

[Fidelis]

I didn’t make any “charges”. I simply affirmed that… I don’t concur with the Catholic cultus of saints. I don’t find the distinctions made by Roman Catholics between “veneration”. “latria” “dulia” and “hyperdulia” to be convincing. The fact of the matter is that “latria”, “dulia”, and “hyperdulia” are simply Latin words synonymous with one another and synonyms for the English word “worship”.

Sorry, but playing with words won’t cut it. “Simply affirming” unsubstantiated misconceptions about the Catholic Faith **is **making charges.

The English word “veneration” is simply a synonym for the English word “worship”, (which, tangentially, is why Pope Clement XI forbade the Chinese practice of “veneration” of ancestors).

It is most certainly not a synonym. And I’d like to see some first hand evidence of your Pope Clement citation. Thanks.

Pneuton: sorry but prayer, within Christian theology, is an act of worship.

Only among those truncated forms of Christianity theology (less than 200 years old and totally unbiblical) in which, lacking a true sacrifice as found in the Mass, have prayer as their only form of worship.

Since Your rosary is addressed NOT to God but to Mary, you are guilty of worshipping Mary in place of God, whether you so intend or not.

With all due respect, that’s an exceptionally dopey charge on two counts:

1. Unless you are a mind-reader, I think the person who is doing the praying should know better than you who he is praying to.
2. Even the Hail Mary ends with the invocation “**pray for us **now and at the hour of our death” which clearly shows the prayer is ultimately directed toward God.

“Devotions”, likewise, are an act of worship. If you are engaged in devotions addressed to any being or thing other than God Almighty, you are guilty of worshipping something other than God Almighty–whether this is your intent or not

. Ditto above.

If I bump into my pastor at the supermarket, I neither ‘pray’ to him, in the Biblical and Christian sense, nor do I perform “devotions” to him. Your analogy is not analogous to what Roman Catholics actually do.

Sorry, you lost me on that one. If you’re trying to make some sort of effective analogy, you’ll have to be clearer. Thanks.

 

[Guardian333]

John MacArthur’s attack on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is deceptive & confusing.

Here is the truth to his claims from Catholic Answers

Is The Mass a Sacrifice?

In close detail, the article reveals this

Like the Mass, Christ words at the Last Supper are words of sacrifice, *“This is my body . . . this is my blood . . . given up for you.” * So, the Mass is not repeating the murder of Jesus, but is taking part in what never ends: the offering of Christ to the Father for our sake (Heb 7:25, 9:24).

**Read & study 1 Corinthians 11:23-30 carefully & reflect on it. **

“For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 1 Corinthians 11:23-24

Jesus commanded us to do this in rememberance of Him!

“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes” 1 Corinthians 11:26

 

[pnewton]

Pneuton: sorry but prayer, within Christian theology, is an act of worship. Since Your rosary is addressed NOT to God but to Mary, you are guilty of worshipping Mary in place of God, whether you so intend or not.

I did not use the word “prayer”. I said "say a Rosary.’ I did this deliberately because what you mean my “pray” is not the exclusive meaning of the word. If I pray to a judge by means of a legal petition, I do not worship him, but merely ask for a favor.

You may say that it is not the same since the judge is living. So is Mary. Then we get to the real crux of our differences, beyond rhetoric. I believe that those in heaven can know what goes on here on earth and protestants, as a rule, do not. If the members of Christ body in heaven can know what goes on here on earth, then it is reasonable, since they are now more like Christ than we, that they would desire to assist us by praying for our needs.

So, why do we have a devotion, or affection for those in heaven? They are our family. They are part of the same body of Christ we are. It is natural to feel some affection for those we admire, especially if we recognize the reality that we are family. Do you remember when Princess Diana died? England mourned as a country, even though the vast majority never met her. I remember when I watched thousands of my fellow Americans burned and crushed to death 9-11-2001. Even though I did not know them, I wept because of my connection to them through our common bond of citizenship. How much greater my bond to the great saints and martyrs who have gone before me and now are with the Lord.

What I do not understand is why more Christians do not have a family connection with these brothers and sisters in the Lord.

 

[Guardian333]

John MacArthur and his “followers” should be worried because Catholics are becoming more aware and knowledgeable in their faith through the internet, Catholic Answers, Catholic radio, the EWTN channel, writings by many Apologetics, etc. Naysayers have to rely on Catholics being ignorant of these resources in order to effectively convert others. I am alot more confident in my Catholic faith due to the guidance from all these resources that are available to us. I humbly pray that “anti-Catholics” will be humbled by the Truth & by the grace of God.

Thank you Catholic Answers & all you Catholic apologsts, you are a blessing.

 

[flameburns623]

I did not use the word “prayer”. I said "say a Rosary.’

The Rosary, nonetheless, is a prayer.

I did this deliberately because what you mean my “pray” is not the exclusive meaning of the word.

It is the exclusive meaning of the word within Christian theology.

If I pray to a judge by means of a legal petition, I do not worship him, but merely ask for a favor.

This is an antiquated legal use of the word.

I believe that those in heaven can know what goes on here on earth and protestants, as a rule, do not. If the members of Christ body in heaven can know what goes on here on earth, then it is reasonable, since they are now more like Christ than we, that they would desire to assist us by praying for our needs.

You have no Biblical justification believing that Saints are in any position to hear your prayers. In any case, whatever those in Heaven do (and this is likely to include prayer on behalf of us on Earth), the prayers of the Saints are addressed, rightly, to the God Who can hear and answer those prayers. Your prayers are wrongly addressed to departed souls who cannot.

So, why do we have a devotion, or affection for those in heaven? They are our family . . . What I do not understand is why more Christians do not have a family connection with these brothers and sisters in the Lord.

We do have. However it is sinful for us to pray to or have devotions on behalf of those who are departed. We are forbidden to worship the creature in place of their Creator.

Fidelis:

flameburns623:

Since Your rosary is addressed NOT to God but to Mary, you are guilty of worshipping Mary in place of God, whether you so intend or not

.

With all due respect, that’s an exceptionally dopey charge on two counts:

1. Unless you are a mind-reader, I think the person who is doing the praying should know better than you who he is praying to.
2. Even the Hail Mary ends with the invocation “**pray for us **now and at the hour of our death” which clearly shows the prayer is ultimately directed toward God.

With all due respect:

The prayer begins with the words “Hail Mary” and continues with the blasphemous petition, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners”. The prayer is addressed to Mary and the ordinary expectation of Catholics is that it is Mary who will hear and answer the prayer. No Biblical warrant exists that she can hear such a prayer, that she would accept what equates to worship on her behalf, nor that she has the power to answer such prayers if she could know of them. Certainly she would disavow any claim to being the ‘mother of God’.

If I bump into my pastor at the supermarket, I neither ‘pray’ to him, in the Biblical and Christian sense, nor do I perform “devotions” to him. Your analogy is not analogous to what Roman Catholics actually do.

Sorry, you lost me on that one. If you’re trying to make some sort of effective analogy, you’ll have to be clearer. Thanks.

Sorry. Try re-reading the original comment by Pnewton and perhaps my response will make more sense. It was HIS analogy and my response to the same.

 

[pnewton]

You have no Biblical justification believing that Saints are in any position to hear your prayers.

Don’t need it. Catholic, remember. 1900 years of traditional and consistent teaching by Church authority is enough.

In any case, whatever those in Heaven do (and this is likely to include prayer on behalf of us on Earth), the prayers of the Saints are addressed, rightly, to the God Who can hear and answer those prayers. Your prayers are wrongly addressed to departed souls who cannot.

However, as one who holds the Bible as the authority, where in the Bible do you find this?

We are forbidden to worship the creature in place of their Creator.

You are absolutely correct! If we did (and when Catholics do, as might happen), they are commiting idolatry. That is why we must understand that Mary is a creature infinitely below God.

Again, while you may have every right to disagree with the beliefs of others, you cross the line forbidden by Christ into judgementalism when you start assuming that you know more of what goes on in the heart of your fellow Christians, even more than they do. You and J Mac can continue to say that what we do is worship of Mary, but you both lack total authority for such comments. That level of judgement belongs to God alone. My conscience is clean that I do not worship any one but God. The same is true for the vast majority of Catholics.

 

[jim1130]

The prayer begins with the words “Hail Mary”…

Luke 1:28. Merely quoting the Archangel Gabriel…

…and continues with the blasphemous petition, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners”.

Luke 1:43. Jesus is God, Mary is the Mother of Jesus, hence Mary is the Mother of God. Mary is also the Bride of the Holy Spirit.

The prayer is addressed to Mary and the ordinary expectation of Catholics is that it is Mary who will hear and answer the prayer. No Biblical warrant exists that she can hear such a prayer, that she would accept what equates to worship on her behalf, nor that she has the power to answer such prayers if she could know of them. Certainly she would disavow any claim to being the ‘mother of God’.

We invite Mary to pray with us and for us, unless you are like John MacArthur who thinks that she is a “dead woman” a term I find most offensive.

The following passages are taken directly from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, By Dr. Ludwig Ott (Edited in English by James Canon Bastible, D.D., Translated from the German by Patrick Lynch, Ph.D., Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, IL 61105, Fourth edition May 1960, Pages196-216).

Page 197 – “As the Mother of God, Mary transcends in dignity all created persons, angels, and men because the dignity of a creature is the greater the nearer it is to God. And of all created things after the human nature of Christ, Mary is nearest to the Triune God. As a true mother she is related by blood to the Son of God according to His human nature. Through the Son she is associated intimately also with the Father and the Holy Ghost. The Church honors her on account f her position as Mother of God, and on account of her high endowment with grace deriving from her position as daughter of the Heavenly Father and spouse of the Holy Ghost. In a certain sense, Mary’s dignity is infinite, since she is the mother of an Infinite Divine Person.”

Page 198 – “But above all Mary’s vocation to be the Mother of God demands for her the richest endowment with Grace.”

Page 198 – “Mary’s fullness of grace falls much short of Christ’s fullness of grace; however, the fullness of grace of the Mother of God as much transcends the fullness of grace of even the highest angels and saints as the dignity of the Mother of God surpasses the supernatural excellences of the angels and the saints.”

Page 200 - “The angel’s salutation represents the proper name, and must on this account express a characteristic quality of Mary. The principle reason why the pleasure of God rests in special fashion on her, is her election to the dignity of the Mother of God. Accordingly, Mary’s endowment with grace proceeding from God’s pleasure must also be of unique perfection. However, it is perfect only if it be perfect, not only intensively but also extensively, that is, it extends over her whole life, beginning with her entry into the world.”

Page 212 – “Mary freely and deliberately co-operated in giving the Redeemer to the world. Instructed by the angel as to the person and the task of her Son she freely assented to be the Mother of God (Luke 1:38). The Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Redemption of mankind by the vicarious atonement of Christ were dependent on her assent.”

Page 212 – “Mary, by her obedience became the cause of our salvation.”

Page 215-216 – “During the first three centuries, the veneration of Mary was intimately connected with the veneration of Christ. From the fourth century onward we find a formal veneration of Mary herself. The hymns of St. Ephrem the Syrian on the birth of the Lord “are almost equally songs of praise for the Virgin Mother.” St. Gregory Nazianzus refers to the invocation of Mary’s intercession by saying of the Christian maiden Justina, that she had “besought the Virgin Mary to assist a maiden in danger,” when her virginity was threatened. St. Epiphanius teaches in opposition to the sect of the Collyridians whose members paid an idolatrous veneration to Mary: “Mary should be honored, but the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost should be adored. Nobody should adore Mary.”

Page 216 – Luther criticized many forms of veneration to Mary, but held fast to the traditional belief in Mary’s Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, her Immaculate Conception, and her intercession; Zwingli held to the veneration of Mary, but rejected the practice of making petition to her; Calvin rejected veneration paid to Mary as adoration of idols. Under the influence of rationalism the religious veneration of Mary deteriorated and sank to the level regarding her as a sublimely moral model but merely a natural person.

 

[twiggymoo]

John MacArthur is generic and worships the bible.

 

[Mickey]

John MacArthur is generic and worships the bible.

I do not have concur with much of what MacArthur says, but there is no need to insult him.

 

[Fidelis]

With all due respect:

The prayer begins with the words “Hail Mary”…

 

[twiggymoo]

I do not have concur with much of what MacArthur says, but there is no need to insult him.

Ok, I’ll skip the generic part. But he does worship the bible. I did say generic because I used to listen to him for some years and although he “knows a lot” - it is mostly polemic in nature. People who go about either to prove or disprove something aren’t going anywhere.

 

[christianley]

A fellow named John MacArthur, who has a radio program called “Grace to You” has a particularly anti-Catholic bias. He says that the Mass is anti-Christian on this link: gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=231486. He also has numerous links on his website that accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary. What do you think is the best response to this fellow?

Is there any profit in being anti-Catholic?

 

[Mickey]

it is mostly polemic in nature.

Agreed.