Ever Just Get Tired Of Debating Topics Here?

[acarlson]

The greatest truth that we must all remember is really a double-sided coin. On one side of the coin it says, “There is God and he is good.” The other side of the same coin says, “Thank God that he is good, because we’re all sinners.” To me, these two statements are really two sides of one eternal truth.

What does that have to do with this thread? Here is how I see it. If you observe the debates carefully, watch how often people point out to others the error of their ways. Ask yourself, how many times people admit their own errors. This is what triggers debates. Such comments come off as condescending.

If you’re going to tell someone that receiving communion in the hand is a lack of faith in the Blessed Sacrament, you must be careful. What you’re saying to that person is that their faith is lacking. Maybe you receive COTT, but you are unforgiving of the faults in others. Isn’t your faith equally lacking?

St. Teresa of Avila always said, “God preserve me from sour faced saints.” She was referring a movement that was very common in her time. There were Catholics who called themselves the Illuminati. They believed that they were all that and a bag of chips. But they were the most sour people. Whenever they spoke to others who were struggling with their faith, they did not inspire. Instead, they made people feel worse. Teresa, on the other hand, had a wonderful sense of humor. When she met someone who struggled with his or her faith, she would laugh. She was known for pointing out the ridiculous in our shortcomings. The key here is to notice how she found the common shortcomings between her and those whom she was trying to help. Equally important is how she played it down with humor, helping the other person realize that nothing was impossible. When people struggled with their faith or did something wrong, she would insist that they try again. She never said that they were wrong. Her favorite expression was, “You can do better than that?”

My last example from her was when it came to talking about her faith and why she did or did not do certain things. She often gave the same answer. “Why are you asking me? I have no idea why God does this. I just follow along.” She never tried to tell people why she did what she did. She always pointed to what God did and then said that she had no idea why he did it.

Her humor, her encouragement of others to do better, and her humility that it was God who did it, not her, disarmed people. You can’t debate with a person like that. They are not placing themselves as your teacher, but as your equal.

The debates will decrease when we learn to share rather than teach. The word “teach” as Jesus used it in the Gospel and as we use it today is very different. If you want to understand what Jesus means when he said, “Go out and teach all nations” take a close look at the role of the Rabbi. Rabbi, as we know, means teacher. Rabbis were not authoritarian teachers. They were very unassuming. We have taken the command to teach and have become authoritarian. That triggers a negative reaction in others.

I truly believe that men and women like Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Avila, Don Bosco, Mother Teresa were loved because they were non threatening. They were funny. They were gentle. They admitted their own faults before pointing to those in others. Most importantly, they knew that nothing was impossible for God. Conversion of others did not depend on them. All they had to do was to be present so that others could see the Christian life in practice. They pushed themselves, not others. They were very visually oriented.

They are great models for us today, because we live in a world where a whole generation is visual. It’s not a generation that is oriented toward words, but toward images. We can avoid arguments if we learn to paint pictures with our words.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

So beautifully said!! I couldn’t agree more!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Another thing that is tiresome is when a seemingly benign post goes up and you reply only to later find out that the poster really had an agenda and steers the thread to that agenda.

 

[white_sheep]

I agree. They are disgraceful and have absolutely no place on a Catholic forum. Discuss these matters in private with a priest.

I wasn’t exactly thinking keep them off the board entirely, but have a subforum or different room for them so they don’t pop up all over the board. If you have good advice for people with those problems then you can go in there if you want to.

 

[Lamafacaja]

Well, yeah sometimes it can get really tiresome and no one ever really wins, generally. You can’t tell people anything they’re not open to hearing. It’s like a Chinese fire drill around here so often. Blogs can be interesting when things on the forums tend to go south, so to speak. That and checking out some of the really great Catholic websites in cyberspace.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I get fed up with the Non Catholic religions area Al. To me it just gets to be very trying and loaded with contempt at times.

So, in regards to my own spirituality, I have be step outside there at times. You know, just to process and get my own head back together. Otherwise it becomes infectious on my own brothers and sisters in faith. Its easy to lose focus on whos’ who and what we are doing, in regards to some of this other crazy thinking. And some is seriuosly left field.

And if this has happened which I’m sure it has, I truly am sorry. Much love and Gods Blessing to all of you.

God Bless, GT

 

[simple_soul]

Another thing that is tiresome is when a seemingly benign post goes up and you reply only to later find out that the poster really had an agenda and steers the thread to that agenda.

*This is on of the reasons I am literally so intimidated to join a thread.
I believe I can actually “feel” the breath being held in anticipation of those who are just waiting for me to fall into some trap they have carefully laid out so that they can prove to me that what I believe is some how very wrong, misguided, and heresy.
But, I wonder if this is really the intention, well maybe sometimes, but I wonder if for the most part we all are just trying to wrap our brains around what is Truth and what is not. But because of our own personal fears we all “feel” that everyone else is out to “get” us and because of our own shortcomings we do not know a better way to discus something to understand it better.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Another thing that is tiresome is when a seemingly benign post goes up and you reply only to later find out that the poster really had an agenda and steers the thread to that agenda.

Yes, it can be trying. It wears at the Soul. Very much as I was saying earlier. I get upset with myself for falling into the trap. I do much praying on it.

I been leaning toward pure Catholic threads, and back to my own reading, church, prayer etc.

I just feel weaken by it. Even at time Brother Dave you can engage in a thread with a poster who states to be Catholic and as a Catholic you take this on their words. then down the path you just get a feeling that either ist just heretical understanding, or something very different.

I think in person I just get get a much better idea of truth,

God Bless, Gary

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes, it can be trying. It wears at the Soul. Very much as I was saying earlier. I get upset with myself for falling into the trap. I do much praying on it.

I been leaning toward pure Catholic threads, and back to my own reading, church, prayer etc.

I just feel weaken by it. Even at time Brother Dave you can engage in a thread with a poster who states to be Catholic and as a Catholic you take this on their words. then down the path you just get a feeling that either ist just heretical understanding, or something very different.

I think in person I just get get a much better idea of truth,

God Bless, Gary

I agree with you. I am starting to watch what threads I reply to as well. But sometimes I fall.

Pray for me.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I get fired up defending our mother

Isn’t this the truth? Nothing ruffles my feathers more than people disrespectin’ on our Mama Mary! :tsktsk::dts: I believe it was St. Maximilian Kolbe who said if you can’t accept Mary as your Mother, you can’t accept Jesus as your brother. You talk her down, it’s her Son who hears you. :sad_yes:

 

[maurin]

Pray for me.

Everyday, for all Priests and Religious, and especially for those I know by name.

Pray for me.

 

[JReducation]

During the late 1980s or early 1990s Protestant Minister wrote a wonderful book. I believe he may have been Lutheran. Anyway, he was a trained pastoral counselor. He wrote a wonderful book called Toxic Faith.

The whole premise of his book is that “faith” (notice the quotation marks) that becomes a weapon that we use against people or that we use to control others is not real faith, even if we believe it.

He pointed out that many times we believe in the words, but we miss the application. When that happens, we’re in trouble, because all we’re doing is struggling with ourselves. He pointed out how some people are uncomfortable struggling with their inner faith questions, so they project their fears, doubts and even their guilt onto others and they engage in doing battle with others. In reality, they’re tyring to convince themselves.

These are all forms of toxic faith. It’s toxic, because it’s not the faith of the Gospel. The faith of the Gospel is summarized in the Beatitudes, the Corporal Works of Mercy and the Paschal Mystery. It is a way of life that leads to perfect charity, not to anger, hate, condescension, judgment, spiritual pride, and defiance.

I believe that doing battle with people who suffer toxic faith can be exhausting, because they’re really out to convert you to their point of view or convert themselves by converting you. In other words, if another person buys into it, then they must be right. They lack the confidence in Christ and the Church to guide them. They need to win an argument to prove to themselves that they’re right. It’s not enough for them to believe and to trust God.

I think that it’s sad that so many of us get caught in toxic faith and our spiritual lives become one constant battle after another, when they should really be a slow movement toward union of the soul with God. The fact that we’re on this thread may be a sign that God is speaking to some of us and calling us away from the battles and moving us towrad reflection. Francisco de Osuna, a Franciscan Mystic who influenced Teresa of Avila, wrote that recollection (reflection) is the entryway to contemplation. NOW THAT’S TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[floresco]

Well, yeah sometimes it can get really tiresome and no one ever really wins, generally. You can’t tell people anything they’re not open to hearing. It’s like a Chinese fire drill around here so often. Blogs can be interesting when things on the forums tend to go south, so to speak. That and checking out some of the really great Catholic websites in cyberspace.

There is a new blog that might interest the people who read this subforum. It is called “Voces Traditionis” (which means voices of tradition). It is sponsored by the Fish Eaters website:blog.fisheaters.com/

 

[floresco]

I would be really nice to have threads on Traditional Catholic Spirituality. I mean, discussions on the masters of Catholic Spirituality: Augustine, Bernard, Benedict, Basil, Francis of Assisi, Francis de Sales, Teresa, Catherine, and maybe some of the Fathers. These men and women were master theologians on the spiritual life and they wrote on a variety of topics.

We can have a thread on Benedict’s love for stability, Bernard’s love of Mary, Francis of Assisi’s unquestioning obedience, Basil’s asceticism, Teresa’s contemplative prayer and so forth.

Catholic traditionalist is broader than the liturgy. There is so much more and we seem to repeat threads on liturgy, communion, the SSPX and this bishop or that parish.

I completely agree with you. I once tried starting a thread on this very thing and it got moved to the Spirituality sub-forum where it died. If traditional Catholicism is seen as a group that disagrees about liturgy and all we talk about here is disagreeing about liturgy, of course it is going to be filled with profitless debates. There is indeed so much more.

Those with an affinity for tradition will tend to have a sense of connection with the Saints and they are an almost limitless source of inspiring and edifying discussions. Our lives are not about arguing (at least they shouldn’t be) but about the traditions of the Church helping us to grow closer to God.

 

[JReducation]

There is a new blog that might interest the people who read this subforum. It is called “Voces Traditionis” (which means voices of tradition). It is sponsored by the Fish Eaters website:blog.fisheaters.com/

Thanks for the link. I didn’t have time to read all of the articles, but I really enjoyed the one on the deacons. It’s very impressive, because the author is very young person, a college senior. What I like about it is that he does not go into “we do it this way” and “they do it that way” and “our way is better”. He simply explains what the Order of Deacon is and his ministerial role. Then is states, without criticism, that the Traditionalist Movement does not make use of permanent deacons. It actually made me think back to Canon Law. Actually, they can make use of permanent deacons. The permanent deacons existed long before the Tridentine mass was sculpted as we know it today. In fact, just two years before he died, our Holy Father Francis was asked to become a deacon. The reason was rather interesting, but a topic for another thread.

I liked the way that this particular entry was done. It showed that the person is intelligent enough to know how to make a point and secure enough that he has no need to convince others about anything. It’s like putting something on the table. Take it or leave it. That’s healthy faith without the debates.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I completely agree with you. I once tried starting a thread on this very thing and it got moved to the Spirituality sub-forum where it died. If traditional Catholicism is seen as a group that disagrees about liturgy and all we talk about here is disagreeing about liturgy, of course it is going to be filled with profitless debates. There is indeed so much more.

Those with an affinity for tradition will tend to have a sense of connection with the Saints and they are an almost limitless source of inspiring and edifying discussions. Our lives are not about arguing (at least they shouldn’t be) but about the traditions of the Church helping us to grow closer to God.

Someone started a thread on obedience in TC forum. It’s interesting, because immediately, the lay posters boxed obedience into religious life. I have written several. posts. Someone sent me a PM to ask me to explain why Franciscans teach bliind obedience and how and why they disagree with Aquinas. The fact is that we don’t disagree, even though we do use the term. More commonly we say “a loving obedience” or “absolute obedience” since most people are more familiar with the writings of Aquinas than with those of Francis, They would not understand “blind obedience” in Franciscan theology.

Then I tried to show how everyone is called to obedience and to give examples from Traditional Catholicism.

Finally, my last post is how traditionally, the mendicants not only commanded obedience of their friars, but they taught the laity how to govern. I pointed out how this tradition has been forgotten by many people.

Some people have posted from St. Ignatius, St. Francis de Sales, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Benedict, St. Catherine and I posted from St. Francis of Assisi (too many saints with Francis, Frances and Teresa or Theresa). Every time you name a Francis or a Teresa, you have to give this long title with it.

Back to the point, there is a pretty nice thread on the tradtion of obedience looking backward at the great teachers. I call them teachers, because not all of them are Doctors, but they are certainly teachers.

It’s an interesting thread, if anyone wants to go there.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Padraig1972]

I know though this for sure, JReducation`s posts i do not get tired of this, I learn a lot from reading.

Okay, i know how this sounds, but it is 100 % seriously meant.

 

[benidict]

I don’t see myself leaving CA, but I’m just losing interest in debating/arguing the same topics over and over.

I suppose others get tired of it too, as some of the regulars are seldom seen posting here lately.

Is it like everything else, you just get tired or need a break ?

Every body needs a break at times my friend. but…It may seem like we are debating the same topics over and over until you take a different view. I would say it is contending for the truth. there are thousands and thousands that read these post, but never post themselves. These may be Catholics thinking of leaving the One True Church, or Protestants and others, looking into Catholicism as a viable alternative. What we say, makes an impact that we really may not see this side of eternity. But what we write, what we say, has a Global impact. It is a very heavy responsibility. There have been times in the physical realm that I have had to take up a fighting position and hold it, until told otherwise. This is no different. the warfare here, is spiritual however, and has eternal ramifications. Never give up the good fight. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[JReducation]

Every body needs a break at times my friend. but…It may seem like we are debating the same topics over and over until you take a different view. I would say it is contending for the truth. there are thousands and thousands that read these post, but never post themselves. These may be Catholics thinking of leaving the One True Church, or Protestants and others, looking into Catholicism as a viable alternative. What we say, makes an impact that we really may not see this side of eternity. But what we write, what we say, has a Global impact. It is a very heavy responsibility. There have been times in the physical realm that I have had to take up a fighting position and hold it, until told otherwise. This is no different. the warfare here, is spiritual however, and has eternal ramifications. Never give up the good fight. Peace and prayers for you.

I believe that I understand what you’re saying. I also believe that many people misunderstand the following terms when they are used in Spiritual Theology:

• Spiritual battle
• Spiritual warfare
• battle for souls
• fight
• conflict
• war

These are words that date back to the Fathers and later to the great teachers of the Church. The problem is that in Greek and in Latin these words had multiple meanings. In Spiritual Theology they don’t mean the same thing that they mean on the street. Many people apply Webster’s definitions of these words. That’s when you get into trouble. Webster never wrote Ascetical Theology. The Fathers, Doctors and other teachers of the Church were not thinking about conflicts between people when they used these terms. They were thinking about man’s struggle for his salvation. It does not mean that there were never any conflicts between people. Had there not been, Paul’s letters to the Corinthians would have been just nagging memos. But the manner used by Paul, the Fathers, the Doctors and the teachers of the spiritual life was direct, focussed on the problem, not the person, and most importantly, they did not allow the debates to affect them. They were masters at emotional distancing… That’s why they were all so sane.

The style of our discussions are not the same as those of the great teachers of the Church. The style of our discussions is Marian Webster’s definition of war, combat and all those other words. It’s emotionally violent. I’m not sure if it does greater damage to the poster than it does to the reader. In the end, the reader can just blow it off and move along. But the poster is left with this rage, frustration, fear and other non pleasant feelings. It has to be tiring. I can’t believe that some of the people whom I see arguing ferociously on these threads do not feel anything.

I’ve learned to look a these threads as I look at the rest of the world around me. As St. Francis would say, “everything is beyond me.” Padre Pio rephrased it, but it meant the same thing, “worrying is useless.” This way, you keep your inner silence. You do what you have to do and you move along to your next obligation. God is still God. That post is not vacant.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[GaryTaylor]

Inspiring thoughts JR,

More often we confirm each others better thinking than others. And that is a Blessing in itself.

Nonetheless their are other’s now and again who receive Gods Grace through the redemption process, difficult to pin what triggers the response nor is it really important. Whats profound is it happens. And this is a blessing to see also.

I have an overwhelming feeling that somehow time and events are moving much quicker now. Almost a sense of urgency. I feel this is what I must restrain myself from responding to though.

The presence I have experienced in the last year and half has been very different. Hard to explain, yet its very real.

 

[The_Reginator]

I completely agree with you. I once tried starting a thread on this very thing and it got moved to the Spirituality sub-forum where it died. If traditional Catholicism is seen as a group that disagrees about liturgy and all we talk about here is disagreeing about liturgy, of course it is going to be filled with profitless debates. There is indeed so much more.

Those with an affinity for tradition will tend to have a sense of connection with the Saints and they are an almost limitless source of inspiring and edifying discussions. Our lives are not about arguing (at least they shouldn’t be) but about the traditions of the Church helping us to grow closer to God.

I took Brother JR’s suggestion to heart as I want to bring contemplation (well, MORE contemplation) into my life.
I started this thread: Traditional Catholic Contemplation and as of 3:15pm EST it is still in the Traditional Catholicism forum.

If anyone can help … “Deus Gratias!”