Ever virgin

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How does the CC explain Matt.1:25, which states that “he (Joseph) did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son…”.This seems to show that after this event, he did know her, in which case she could not be considered ever virgin. What am I missing? I personally consider her ever virgin, but I can’t justify that belief. Help me out here…
 
How does the CC explain Matt.1:25, which states that “he (Joseph) did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son…”.This seems to show that after this event, he did know her, in which case she could not be considered ever virgin. What am I missing? I personally consider her ever virgin, but I can’t justify that belief. Help me out here…
Well, as far as I can tell, the church usually refers back to St. Jerome’s response to Helvidius on this issue. He wrote this response around the year 383.

Here is the link to the text of the response:
The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary

Also Catholic answers has a tract in which they cover that bible passage:
“Brethren of the Lord”

The point that Matthew is trying to make here is that Mary was a virgin at the time of the birth. He is not trying to make a statement about Mary being a virgin after the birth.
And firstborn doesn’t mean that there were other children, it was a title or an honor given to the first child born of a mother.
Even if it were your only child, you would get the title “first born”. The same was to the animals, with the first born was offered as a sacrifice. It didn’t mean that there would be others born after wards.
 
How does the CC explain Matt.1:25, which states that “he (Joseph) did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son…”.This seems to show that after this event, he did know her, in which case she could not be considered ever virgin. What am I missing? I personally consider her ever virgin, but I can’t justify that belief. Help me out here…
How do you explain the times “until” in the bible being used?
 
How do you explain the times “until” in the bible being used?
There are many times the word ‘until’ is used in the Bible which specifically do NOT imply any sort of change after a certain mentioned event.

Eg - Michal, David’s wife, had no children ‘until the day she died’. Certainly doesn’t mean she had a child either on that day or (naturally not) AFTER she had died.

Eg 2 - ‘sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool’. Doesn’t mean Christ will, once His victory over His enemies is complete, cease to sit at the Father’s right hand.

Eg 3 - ‘I will be with you always, UNTIL the end of the world’. Of course this doesn’t mean Christ will cease to be with us AFTER the world ends!
 
You got it Lily M! I think there are even more occasions… Like after the flood(as you mention in Eg3?)🙂
There are many times the word ‘until’ is used in the Bible which specifically do NOT imply any sort of change after a certain mentioned event.

Eg - Michal, David’s wife, had no children ‘until the day she died’. Certainly doesn’t mean she had a child either on that day or (naturally not) AFTER she had died.

Eg 2 - ‘sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool’. Doesn’t mean Christ will, once His victory over His enemies is complete, cease to sit at the Father’s right hand.

Eg 3 - ‘I will be with you always, UNTIL the end of the world’. Of course this doesn’t mean Christ will cease to be with us AFTER the world ends!
 
How does the CC explain Matt.1:25, which states that “he (Joseph) did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son…”.This seems to show that after this event, he did know her, in which case she could not be considered ever virgin. What am I missing? I personally consider her ever virgin, but I can’t justify that belief. Help me out here…
If I say I’m not going to drink another beer until the day I die does that mean I will start drinking beer after I die??

“Until” does not necessarily mean an action will happen after “until”.
 
You got it Lily M! I think there are even more occasions… Like after the flood(as you mention in Eg3?)🙂
The example I like is Acts 8:40:
39But Philip was found at Azo’tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare’a.
If “until” or “til,” in this case, always means a reversal of the previously mentioned condition, then we must assume that Philip completely stopped preaching the gospel when he came to Caesarea, which seems extremely unlikely because later in Acts 21:8 he is still called “Philip the evangelist.”
 
I am familiar with St. Jerome’s response to Helvidius. To me, its not convincing. I’m sorry, but none of the other postings are either…no offense…
 
I am familiar with St. Jerome’s response to Helvidius. To me, its not convincing. I’m sorry, but none of the other postings are either…no offense…
Code:
They're not trying to convince you of anything:) You asked an honest question, and we explained our belief. Whether you accept the perpetual virginity of our Lady is for you to discern.
If you really are trying to understand… I would suggest looking into the deposit of Catholic faith, and how we believe truth is revealed… It is not limited to God’s word through the scriptures…it exists in God’s LIVING word through tradition, scripture, and magisterium. We believe in her perpetual virginity, because it is an aspect of her life that has been handed down to us through tradition.

It is grounded in scripture, and revelation. If you’d like to delve into it more fully, there are some great articles here in the CAF library:)
 
The Greek (not the English) deals only with the time upto the birth of Christ and not after.

As others have noted if we interprit until to believe that Mary and Joseph had sex, this brings up problems.

Matthew 28:20 says that Christ will be with us until the end of time.

When the end of time comes, will Christ no longer be with us?

Then there is for example…

2 Sam 6:23 – Michal “had no children until the day of her death.”

So after her death she had kids right?

1 Tim 6:14 – “…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing…”

When Jesus comes again do we no longer need to keep this commandmant?

Rev 2:25-26 – "But hold fast what you have until I come.

When he comes do we no longer need to hold fast?

If you interprit until as sex (not even remotely implied in the Greek) than surley one needs to be conisistent in their interpretation.

Matthew 1:25 does not disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary.

“How can this be, since I do not know a man?” (Luke 1:34)

How can this be indeed. 😉
 
Yes , Mary , Holy Mother of God is Immaculate and ever virgin , from the first moment of her conception *until * her glorious Assumption to Heaven , even after Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ . Christ’s birth sanctified his mother’s virginity.
It’s argued that Joseph “knew” Mary at some point because Matthew 1:25 reads, “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son…” But, once again, language clouds the issue. “Until” is used to mean “up to that point, and with no intimations that things changed after that point.” Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times.
“And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.”
He had here used the word until, not that we should suspect or missunderstand that afterwards he did know her, but to inform us that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man , and from there always more .

Here are some examples of until in the Holy Bible text :

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you until the end of the world. (This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world. )

Luke 1:80: “[St. John the Baptist] was in the deserts *until *the day of his manifestation to Israel.” (St. John stayed in the desert afterwards, too)

1 Corinthians 15:25: “For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet” (Christ will reign forever and ever!)

1 Timothy 4:13: “until I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine” (St. Paul gave a lot of attention to doctrine after he came!)

Also Joseph was perfectly chaste from the time he was betrothed to Mary until his death , implied that no impurity took place outside of this marriage, a fact that appears more clearly from the very nature of his mission : the most holy witness and guardian of her chastity remained free from absolutely all marital acts ( through a vow of perpetual chastity ) .
 
It’s a very badly written story used to attempt to fullfill prophecy and embrace current cultural norms about the concept of virginity(divine, pure). It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.

It’s a story, used to represent meaning, not something you have to take as an historical fact.

Either that, or God would confuse humanity, by allowing previous mythical stories that talked about virgin births(in other religions) to exist, THEN claim this was the only true actual virgin birth, then present humanity with the uncomfortable notion of a sperm and an egg(which they didn’t know about back then), and then expect us all to figure it out, or be unfaithful if we sat there and thought about it for a moment.

Yeah…it’s a story, written to describe the divinity of a man that people called the christ. Don’t take it as an historical fact. 🙂
 
It’s a very badly written story used to attempt to fullfill prophecy and embrace current cultural norms about the concept of virginity(divine, pure). It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.

It’s a story, used to represent meaning, not something you have to take as an historical fact.

Either that, or God would confuse humanity, by allowing previous mythical stories that talked about virgin births(in other religions) to exist, THEN claim this was the only true actual virgin birth, then present humanity with the uncomfortable notion of a sperm and an egg(which they didn’t know about back then), and then expect us all to figure it out, or be unfaithful if we sat there and thought about it for a moment.

Yeah…it’s a story, written to describe the divinity of a man that people called the christ. Don’t take it as an historical fact. 🙂
This post does not offer the Catholic viewpoint. This is not what the Church says.
 
Oh RLY ? ( to answer to your yeah … story )
It’s a very badly written story used to attempt to fullfill prophecy and embrace current cultural norms about the concept of virginity(divine, pure). It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.
Well , Mary doesn’t nothing from your enumeration . She’s not a ordinary women , so you can judge or classify , Mary is the Holy Mother of God , not because I’m saying so , it’s because that’s the way Mary was from Her Immaculate Conception , to Holy Nativity and ending with Her Holy Assumption.
So , you should accept the facts as long you’re a christian ( catholic or not ) . Or maybe you’re not … as long you’re able to say :
Yeah…it’s a story, written to describe the divinity of a man that people called the christ. Don’t take it as an historical fact. 🙂
Well , it’s a historical fact Divinity of Jesus Christ !
Have a very good day** .**
 
How does the CC explain Matt.1:25, which states that “he (Joseph) did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son…”.This seems to show that after this event, he did know her, in which case she could not be considered ever virgin. What am I missing? I personally consider her ever virgin, but I can’t justify that belief. Help me out here…
The only thing my non catholic friends can come up with to convince me that Mary was not ever virgin was not convincing at all. They tell me it is normal for married people to have sex, and would be abnormal if they did not. I say, its not normal for married people to be parents of the Son of God either, and have angels appear to both parents at different times to explain what would happen to them. 🤷
Its also not normal that Jesus himself did not wish to marry an individual person but married the church which was his bride. And they still think it would be normal for Mary to have been like every other bride. 🤷
 
It’s a very badly written story used to attempt to fullfill prophecy and embrace current cultural norms about the concept of virginity(divine, pure). It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.

It’s a story, used to represent meaning, not something you have to take as an historical fact.

Either that, or God would confuse humanity, by allowing previous mythical stories that talked about virgin births(in other religions) to exist, THEN claim this was the only true actual virgin birth, then present humanity with the uncomfortable notion of a sperm and an egg(which they didn’t know about back then), and then expect us all to figure it out, or be unfaithful if we sat there and thought about it for a moment.

Yeah…it’s a story, written to describe the divinity of a man that people called the christ. Don’t take it as an historical fact. 🙂
You seem to be so sure it is only a story. How many other stories have you read that were written around the time that these events took place?
 
It’s a very badly written story used to attempt to fullfill prophecy and embrace current cultural norms about the concept of virginity(divine, pure). It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.
ALL human females have had sex and given birth? Really? Even the baby females? Even the infertile females? Even the nuns vowed to chastity?
 
ALL human females have had sex and given birth? Really? Even the baby females? Even the infertile females? Even the nuns vowed to chastity?
I am guessing either that was a typo, or the poster expressing that view is into a new age thing. Some kind of goddess worship stuff I am guessing.
 
It’s a very badly written story used to attempt to fullfill prophecy and embrace current cultural norms about the concept of virginity(divine, pure). It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.

It’s a story, used to represent meaning, not something you have to take as an historical fact.

Either that, or God would confuse humanity, by allowing previous mythical stories that talked about virgin births(in other religions) to exist, THEN claim this was the only true actual virgin birth, then present humanity with the uncomfortable notion of a sperm and an egg(which they didn’t know about back then), and then expect us all to figure it out, or be unfaithful if we sat there and thought about it for a moment.

Yeah…it’s a story, written to describe the divinity of a man that people called the christ. Don’t take it as an historical fact. 🙂
Obviously you are not a Christian as you have no clue what you are talking about!
 
It was written after the fact. Mary like all human females, had sex and gave birth.
🙂
Yes that’s true, Dameedna was there when it happened:ehh: That’s how she knows it for a fact.:rolleyes:

So let’s all go to the book launch of “the Gospel according to Dameedna.”
 
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