Ever virgin

[Scottgun]

I’ll be ecumenical and let some Protestants you may have heard of weigh in:

Martin Luther:

Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.

John Calvin:

The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

There has been no new agrument or data presented since that time, so continuing to deny it is a problem of the will, not the intellect. As to the cultural norms of virginity thing, I think this a case of projection based in some latent hostility to the concept. Dawn Eden often heard feminists talk about a virgin/whore dichotomy. She said she didn’t buy it because it was clear that the proponent’s sympathy lay entirely with the whore.

 

[steve99]

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favoured one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God.” Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. (Lk 1:26-38)

Let’s look at this carefully, especially the phrases I have emboldened.

1.a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph
Mary is betrothed to Joseph, which means she is at the first stage of marriage. The next stage normally is for her to be taken into her husband’s house and the marriage consummated.

2.Behold, you will conceive in your womb
The angel tells her she will conceive - some unspecified time in the future. If this was to be an ordinary marriage then Mary would expect to conceive at some time in the future, when the marriage was consummated. So this would be a normal prophecy concerning her future.

3.“How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
But Mary asks a strange question. “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?” (I am a virfgin in some translations).In normal circumstances this would a silly question. She cannot expect to have a child at the moment since the marriage has not been consummated. But if she intended to consummate the marriage at some time in the future then she would expect to be able to have a child at that time. So asking “How can this be?” seems not to make sense.

4.Her question therefore only makes sense if the intended not to consummate the marriage; if she had committed her life to the Lord as a virgin.

An analogy is with someone who does not smoke. If someone prophesied they would die of lung cancer they might say “How can this be since I do not smoke?” The implication is clearly that this condition of not smoking (and in Mary’s case her virginity) is expected to remain unchanged.

This is not the only arguments concerning Mary’s perpetual virginity but perhaps one of the strongest.

 

[benedictus2]

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favoured one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God.” Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. (Lk 1:26-38)

Let’s look at this carefully, especially the phrases I have emboldened.

1.a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph
Mary is betrothed to Joseph, which means she is at the first stage of marriage. The next stage normally is for her to be taken into her husband’s house and the marriage consummated.

2.Behold, you will conceive in your womb
The angel tells her she will conceive - some unspecified time in the future. If this was to be an ordinary marriage then Mary would expect to conceive at some time in the future, when the marriage was consummated. So this would be a normal prophecy concerning her future.

3.“How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
But Mary asks a strange question. “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?” (I am a virfgin in some translations).In normal circumstances this would a silly question. She cannot expect to have a child at the moment since the marriage has not been consummated. But if she intended to consummate the marriage at some time in the future then she would expect to be able to have a child at that time. So asking “How can this be?” seems not to make sense.

4.Her question therefore only makes sense if the intended not to consummate the marriage; if she had committed her life to the Lord as a virgin.

An analogy is with someone who does not smoke. If someone prophesied they would die of lung cancer they might say “How can this be since I do not smoke?” The implication is clearly that this condition of not smoking (and in Mary’s case her virginity) is expected to remain unchanged.

This is not the only arguments concerning Mary’s perpetual virginity but perhaps one of the strongest.

Thank you. I was going to write this one up but you’ve already done it. A very good job at that:thumbsup: