Ever Virgin

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Our Lady is the Mother of God.Our minds can only belive this through faith.
Our Lady is the the wife of the HOLY Spirit in a mystical sence.
Our Lady containes the treasures of God.
Our Lady is our mother in every sence.
How can the mystical city of God be open to defilement have you no spirtal perseption.
Our you an empty vessel, all noise and no substance.
We are talking about the vessel that carried the creatour of the
universe, not the woman up the street.
 
Our Lady is the Mother of God.Our minds can only belive this through faith.
Our Lady is the the wife of the HOLY Spirit in a mystical sence.
Our Lady containes the treasures of God.
Our Lady is our mother in every sence.
How can the mystical city of God be open to defilement have you no spirtal perseption.
Our you an empty vessel, all noise and no substance.
We are talking about the vessel that carried the creatour of the
universe, not the woman up the street.
Indeed we are, and all honor and respect to her. Though if you are again, implying that she stands as a wife-figure in relation to the person of our God, then I’m not the one who’s trifling with her honor. And if by “defilement” you are referring to sexual relations between a married couple, then I don’t know what to say: is it possible you’re doing it wrong? Finally, whether I’m “an empty vessel, all noise and no substance” is something for an authority on mixed metaphors to decide.
 
In atrue serch for Christ you find his mother.
In turn she leads you deeper in to the mystery of God Father Son, and Holy Spirit.
By your words it is obvious you have found none of these and are as spitualy blind as
the Pharisees were.
 
In atrue serch for Christ you find his mother.
In turn she leads you deeper in to the mystery of God Father Son, and Holy Spirit.
By your words it is obvious you have found none of these and are as spitualy blind as
the Pharisees were.
I am very sorry to hear it. Looking back over my words, I have to say it’s not particularly obvious to me, but I expect that must be part and parcel of the spiritual blindness.
 
Mary is the Ark of the Covenant? Don’t wish to be disrespectful, but it does not follow that she was contructed of acacia wood and contained two tablets of stone, that holding her aloft would have brought victory in war, or that a non-Levite who bumped into her would have died. Biblical typology can only take you so far, and it cannot decisively show that perpetual virginity was essential to Mary’s typological role as Ark.
But Christians have always seen typological roles in the Bible, even Protestants have to understand that it is common in the NT or else they’d have little explanation for this, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come” (Rom 5:14). Or that Noah’s Ark as a type of Christian baptism in 1 Peter 3:18-2, circumcision foreshadowed baptism (Col 2:11-12), the bronze serpent was a type of the crucified Christ (Num 21:8-9; Jn 3:14), and the Passover Lamb prefigured Christ (1 Cor 5:7). These are just a few of many examples of biblical typology.

I think if at the very least you can get a Protestant to find where in the bible the Trinity is explicit, then you can maybe get them to understand Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. Then you go into the interesting similarities between the Ark of the Old Covenant in 2 Sam and Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant in Luke, and I think it will be very interesting!

Maybe not explicit in scripture…but very biblical. 😉
 
But Christians have always seen typological roles in the Bible, even Protestants have to understand that it is common in the NT or else they’d have little explanation for this, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come” (Rom 5:14). Or that Noah’s Ark as a type of Christian baptism in 1 Peter 3:18-2, circumcision foreshadowed baptism (Col 2:11-12), the bronze serpent was a type of the crucified Christ (Num 21:8-9; Jn 3:14), and the Passover Lamb prefigured Christ (1 Cor 5:7). These are just a few of many examples of biblical typology.

I think if at the very least you can get a Protestant to find where in the bible the Trinity is explicit, then you can maybe get them to understand Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. Then you go into the interesting similarities between the Ark of the Old Covenant in 2 Sam and Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant in Luke, and I think it will be very interesting!

Maybe not explicit in scripture…but very biblical. 😉
Sure; and extremely good illustrations, by the way. I don’t think typology invalid, but think that it can only bear so much explanatory weight. Just because Adam, the type of Christ, had a spouse, it doesn’t mean that Christ must have. I won’t even get into the limits of the otherwise valid bronze-serpent analogy! Point is, typology is good for strengthening an argument reached by other means; it’s a slender reed and an easily misused tool for establishing the same arguments. If I were persuaded of Mary’s perpetual virginity by other textual evidence or theological arguments, I’d certainly find her OT types to be powerful corroborating evidence. But they’re not an adequate “first-order” piece of evidence, if you will.
 
Sure; and extremely good illustrations, by the way. I don’t think typology invalid, but think that it can only bear so much explanatory weight. Just because Adam, the type of Christ, had a spouse, it doesn’t mean that Christ must have. I won’t even get into the limits of the otherwise valid bronze-serpent analogy! Point is, typology is good for strengthening an argument reached by other means; it’s a slender reed and an easily misused tool for establishing the same arguments. If I were persuaded of Mary’s perpetual virginity by other textual evidence or theological arguments, I’d certainly find her OT types to be powerful corroborating evidence. But they’re not an adequate “first-order” piece of evidence, if you will.
I find the typology between the Ark of the Covenant and mary quite compelling…

The Ark contained the stone tablets as you say … I would say they contained the Word of God - the Stone Tablets written by the very hand of God. The Ark contained the symbol of the High Priest - Aaron’s staff. The Ark contained the Manna that sustained the Isrealites during the 40 years - Manna - the bread from heaven …

When David wanted to bring the Ark to Jerusalem, he went out to the hill country, met the Ark and then leaped with joy before it. After Uriah was struck dead for touching the ark to prevent its fall, he stayed there in the hill country fro 3 months …

Mary is the Ark that carried the very Word of God Made Flesh, Jesus the Christ, the Incarnate Diety … Mary carried the Highest of High Priests, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the priest of the Rrder of Melchesidech … Mary carried the True Bread that Came Down from Heaven … the Bread that differs from that which Moses provided [manna] and which eaten does not satisfy. Mary carried the Bread that satisfies every hunger and gives eternal life …

Mary goes to the hill country where Elizabeth declares that she is the Mother of her Savior - her Lord … the child [Jon the Baptist] leaps for joy befroe her. She stays there [in the hill country] for 3 months …

Revelation Chapter 11 declares that the Ark is seen in heaven [the Ark had been missing for some 400 years before the birth of Christ … so a Jewish writer proclaiming to see the Ark is a point of significance … adn how soes he describe this Ark … A Woman clothed with the Sun … [Revelation Chapter 12] … and plase do say they are unrealted being a transition from one chapter to the next … this is not one of Dan Brown’s novels … in the original there were no “Chapter and Verses” … those breaks are artificially imposed centuries after the original writings… They have nothing to do breaks in thoughts or with transitions in message, etc … foriegn to our thoughts … the originals did not even have punctuation as we know it.
 
Mary is the Ark of the Covenant? Don’t wish to be disrespectful, but it does not follow that she was contructed of acacia wood and contained two tablets of stone, that holding her aloft would have brought victory in war, or that a non-Levite who bumped into her would have died. Biblical typology can only take you so far, and it cannot decisively show that perpetual virginity was essential to Mary’s typological role as Ark.
Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of biblical typology. If it is anything, it is the fact that it is not meant to be taken literally. Thus, your rejoinder "she wasn’t constructed of acacia wood…etc.) is a straw man. The typology is not meant to make such literal comparisons. The typology rests in the concept of being set apart for God. As such, her perpetual virginity is as essential as the typological fact of the essential anathema of the Ark and its Sacred objects.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Mary, a perpetual virgin? I’m kind of confused.

Matthew 1:25 (American Standard Bible)
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Matthew 1:25 (KJV)
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Matthew 1:25 (International)
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

According to the dictionary, the word “until” means
a. Before
b. up to the time that or when

Isn’t this saying that Joseph didn’t have intercourse with Mary until after she gave birth to Jesus? I don’t know, I could be wrong. :confused:

John’s gospel records a fulfilled prophesy from the book of Psalms–in it, Jesus tells us He has brothers and sisters.

John 2:17, And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Psalms 69:8-9* I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto MY MOTHER’S CHILDREN. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. *

Any thoughts on this?
 
Mary, a perpetual virgin? I’m kind of confused.

Matthew 1:25 (American Standard Bible)
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Matthew 1:25 (KJV)
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Matthew 1:25 (International)
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

According to the dictionary, the word “until” means
a. Before
b. up to the time that or when

Isn’t this saying that Joseph didn’t have intercourse with Mary until after she gave birth to Jesus? I don’t know, I could be wrong. :confused:

John’s gospel records a fulfilled prophesy from the book of Psalms–in it, Jesus tells us He has brothers and sisters.

John 2:17, And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Psalms 69:8-9* I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto MY MOTHER’S CHILDREN. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. *

Any thoughts on this?
18
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
*
Does this mean that Jesus won’t be with us after the end of the age?*
 
I’m sorry, I was just wondering, I] if Mary was the new Ark of the Covenant, in that she was a vessel for God, once Jesus was born and came out of her, wouldn’t she cease to be untouchable, as it were? If God’s presence had left the Old Testament Ark, wouldn’t it have ceased to be important? Just a thought, correct me if I’m wrong.
 
18
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
*
Does this mean that Jesus won’t be with us after the end of the age?*
2 Timothy 1:17
On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me.
Revelation 7:3
“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
Revelation 20:3
He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

John 8:9​

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
Acts 4:3
They seized Peter and John, and because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day.
Acts 13:6
They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,
Acts 23:14
They went to the chief priests and elders and said, "We have taken a solemn oath not to eat anything until we have killed Paul.
Mark 13:30
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Luke 9:4
Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town.

Luke 12:59​

I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. "
Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Well the same can be used vice versa. Is it possible that words mean what they mean based on context?

What about the Messaniac Prophecy of Jesus?
I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons; for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me (Psa. 69:8,9).

I also thought Jesus had other brothers and sisters like James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? The Greek word used in Matt. 13:54-56 was delphus, meaning “from the womb”. Someone told me that it meant “cousin” but that wasn’t the same as:
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him. The Greek word there is anepsios which is completely distinct from brother.

Who knows? Someone help
 
“A Protestant is not going to accept this answer.”

Why not? The founders of Protestantism not only believed that Mary was ever virgin but they declared so in writing.

Luther:

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and **she remained a virgin after that. **

{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

**Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him **. . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

Zwingili:
Code:
  I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that **she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity**.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

Bullinger (in 1575):

“The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.”

Even John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church stated:

“The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
But the Neo-Protestantism had found a new way to attack the Virginity of the Blessed Mother. I came across this on one discussion forum and I posted in “Ask an apologist” section but I think no one read it yet. So I am putting it up here so any good apologist may provide refute:

It says:
“…From the earliest days of Christianity, Jewish critics have argued that
Christians were mistaken in their reading of almah in Isaiah 7:14.
Because the author of Matthew 1:23, believed that Jesus was born of a
virgin, he quoted Isaiah: “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and
shall bring forth a son” as a proof-text for the divine origin of Jesus.
Jewish scholars declare that Matthew is in error, that the word almah
means young woman (just as the male equivalent elem means young man). It
does not denote a virgin or sexual purity but age. Because a different
Hebrew word, bethulah בתולה(” "), is most commonly used for virgin even
in modern Hebrew, the prophet could not have meant virgin in Isaiah 7:14.

Almah means simply a young woman, of marriageable age, whether married
or not, or a virgin or not; in a broad general sense exactly like girl
or maid in English, when we say shop-girl, parlor-maid, bar-maid,
without reference to or vouching for her technical virginity, which, in
Hebrew, is always expressed by the word bethulah. But in the Septuagint
translation into Greek, the Hebrew almah was erroneously rendered into
the Greek parthenos, Virgin.
“As early as the second century B.C.,” says the distinguished Hebrew
scholar and critic, Salomon Reinach, “the Jews perceived the error and
pointed it out to the Greeks; but the Church knowingly persisted in the
false reading, and for over fifteen centuries she has clung to her
error.” (Orpheus, p, 197.) The truth of this accusation of conscious
persistence in known error through the centuries is proved by confession
of St. Jerome, who made the celebrated Vulgate translation from the
Hebrew into Latin, and intentionally “clung to the error,” though Jerome
well knew that it was an error and false; and thus he perpetuated
through fifteen hundred years the myth of the “Prophetic Virgin Birth”
of Jesus called Christ…"

Is this justifiable and correct information?
 
Still no one has said anything about the Psalm that was brought up, about being an alien to my mothers sons? I started watching this thread intently after that was posted, expecting someone to answer it, but everyone seems to be dodging it.
 
I’m sorry, I was just wondering, I] if
Mary was the new Ark of the Covenant, in that she was a vessel for God, once Jesus was born and came out of her, wouldn’t she cease to be untouchable, as it were? If God’s presence had left the Old Testament Ark, wouldn’t it have ceased to be important? Just a thought, correct me if I’m wrong.

You are wrong.

The more I read your posts the more I understand why you have “Catholic and converting”.

With all the false teachings you seem to have there is no wonder you are converting.

Maybe try to use source like Britanica and Wikipedia so whatever biased sources you are using will not corrupt your understanding of God further.
 
You are wrong.

The more I read your posts the more I understand why you have “Catholic and converting”.

With all the false teachings you seem to have there is no wonder you are converting.

Maybe try to use source like Britanica and Wikipedia so whatever biased sources you are using will not corrupt your understanding of God further.
First off, If what I’m saying is wrong, the many Catholic theologians on this site should be able to prove me wrong, and they usually do. You can’t blame me for posting what I think, especially when I say it’s open for discussion and invite people to refute me.

Secondly, *why *would Mary not cease to be the Ark once Jesus left her? I’m not saying for sure that that happened, I’m just wondering if any of the bright Catholic theologians on here can show me why, as they have on my many other threads.

Lastly, still nothing from anyone on that Psalm.
 
First off, If what I’m saying is wrong, the many Catholic theologians on this site should be able to prove me wrong, and they usually do.
So when you leaving the dark side and becoming Catholic? 😃
 
Why would Mary not cease to be untouchable once Jesus was born and came out of her? And why exactly would sex between spouses be defiling anyway?
 
Why would Mary not cease to be untouchable once Jesus was born and came out of her? And why exactly would sex between spouses be defiling anyway?
You should read the ECFs and writings from the first 400 to 500 years of Christianity.

Mary took a vow of chastity or to be a virgin before the Angel ever visited to ask her to bear Jesus. Now Mary was probably about 12 to 14 years old and she had made a vow to God to be a virgin and to devote her life to Him. But she told God that she would do whatever He asked and so she bore Jesus.

The Christians of the Early church wrote how Mary was still a virgin after wards and that her body had no proof of giving birth. She experienced no birth pains and so they believed Mary was without sin as Eve was before her Fall.

The early Christians also wrote how Mary remained a virgin up until her death. They wrote about her death as well and how she was delivered to Heaven.

All of this was written by early Christians and it is as they believed way back then.

Today so many so called Christians question this and even call veneration of Mary a form of idolatry or blasphemy. They are wrong and could learn alot from the early church should probably start with Theotokos.

As to Psalms you have to understand that the OT often refers to the Nation of Israel as a mother and sinful nations as whores. It is a symbolicism used often in scriptures and does not necessarily equate to a woman in the flesh. Besides I do not see any contention with Psalms 69???
 
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