Everlasting Life, what does it mean to you?

[tommy4321]

Lillith:

Tommy! Your leaving??? That last part was not aimed at you…I just saw a battle on another thread that was very uncharitable

On a side note (not aimed at anyone in particular)…what Jesus is talking about here…that includes talking on the internet

Haven’t you guys put up with enough from me yet? It is kind of fun talking to people with different beliefs huh? (as opposed to talking to everyone with the same beliefs).

I do believe in Hell, it is a state of nothing, no hope, nothing, dust, thats it.

I moving to Reno with my company, get back into sking, seeing the parents, outdoors (trying to stay away from Casino’s (there evil). The only thing I have been doing on the Internet is besides shopping for a home is reading this post. I know I must be ruffling some feathers and you are so kind and I do not take any offense to you at all. I just wonder how much more of me you guys can take, don’t they want to suspend me anymore???

 

[Lillith]

tommy4321:

Haven’t you guys put up with enough from me yet? It is kind of fun talking to people with different beliefs huh? (as opposed to talking to everyone with the same beliefs).

I do believe in Hell, it is a state of nothing, no hope, nothing, dust, thats it.

I moving to Reno with my company, get back into sking, seeing the parents, outdoors (trying to stay away from Casino’s (there evil). The only thing I have been doing on the Internet is besides shopping for a home is reading this post. I know I must be ruffling some feathers and you are so kind and I do not take any offense to you at all. I just wonder how much more of me you guys can take, don’t they want to suspend me anymore???

Good…I am soooo glad it wasn’t me that might make you leave! I have a JW friend at work and we just don’t talk about religion…so we can stay friends of course…I was sincerely curious…

I still believe in Hell though…the firey type that is

 

[b_justb]

tommy4321:

All humans have everlasting life? I believe Adam returned to dust and ceased to exist? Everlasting life is a conditional prospect afforded to us similar to how it was conditional to Adam.

Quite simply, your belief is in error.

 

[carol_marie]

Tommy,

Christianity is a religion that is over 2,000 years old. Could you please provide some examples of great theologians throughout the ages who believed, as you, that hell means “to cease to exist?”

Thank you.
CM

 

[tommy4321]

Scylla and Lillith:

I enjoy when I see a post coming up from the both of you as you are both kind loving Christians. Thanks for being who you are.

I said I would only respond to this thread if there are any questions and one was asked here so I will respond. All we need is what is said in the Bible:

Genesis 3:17 says" And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. **For dust you are and to dust you will return.” **

Note God says to Adam dust you will return. He does not say to him, Hey Adam, you will burn for eternity in this fiery hell pit. We only need to rely on the words and trust what is written in the Bible.

The true God is a loving God and does not send his creation into a fiery burning hell pit. This concept of Gehenna was the fire pit in early years where people burned their trash. It was used as a comparison for Hell.

We do not read that God is this mean God that people fear because he is going to send them into this fiery eternal hell of torture. He is a loving God. This is another example of false teachings that have mislead people since we were young. Were older now. God put us into the world to love us, not to be this mean entity that would torture us. Don’t you see what I mean? Genesis 3 says that God said Adam is going to “dust” not to burn forever our it would have said, “now for you Adam, I am sending your *** (sorry for the language) to burn forever” in eternity. It doesn’t say that. Adam cease to exist = dust

 

[At_His_Feet]

Today, even people who believe in a soul that can exist apart from the body refer to the dead as “returning to the dust”. The entire testimony of scripture on the state of the dead has to be taken into consideration. Can you please explain the meaning of the following scriptures?:

Hebrews 10:29 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Question: The writer of Hebrews says that there is something that is “worse punishment” than “dying without mercy” under the Mosaic Law. But if the wicked die and only go into a state of non-existence, how can there be such a thing as “worse punishment” ?

From the Beloved Disciple

Revelation 20:10, 15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever… and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Question: What is the plain meaning of the word “torment”? What is the plain meaning of the words “forever and ever”?

The words of our Lord:

Matthew 8:11, 12 - 11: I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be throwninto the outer darkness**; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 13:41, 42 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, `Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’**

Matthew 24:50-51 …the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Matthew 25:30 …cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 25:45-46 Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into **eternal punishment**, but the righteous into eternal life." ** Luke 13:27-28 27:** But he will say, I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.
**
Question:** What is the plain meaning of the words in these scriptures? (Notice that some scriptures, for example Matt 25:30 and 24:51, explicitly show that the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” takes place after the punishment has been inflicted, not in anticipation of it)

 

[TOP]

tommy4321:

Hey Tim: Yep, did the whole thing. Confirmation and in fact I attended Catholic School in Cupertino California during my elementary years. I am studying with the Witnesses because I have learned so many truths and feel real connected now to God, Jesus and several things in the Bible I didn’t see before…

Thank you Tommy for your detailed answer. I was confirmed this year, I wasn’t really brought up around the Catholic Church growing up, but felt a strong call this year, I ran to the church, and now I wonder If I should have sought God more first. The witnesses have just recently started to come by and I have had some good discussions with them. I agree with what they have touched on concerning avoiding sin, but haven’t got in to any thing deeper, but I still remember the prayer I said to the Lord before my conformation. And I suspect the Holy Spirit is witness to this. I’m struggling with revalation and being tempted at the same time. So I try fasting at times to help in rev. Fast from sin and pray at the thought of it, seek the Lord, I hope He guides you, and me as well, Thanks, Tim

 

[tommy4321]

TOP:

Thank you Tommy for your detailed answer. I was confirmed this year, I wasn’t really brought up around the Catholic Church growing up, but felt a strong call this year, I ran to the church, and now I wonder If I should have sought God more first. The witnesses have just recently started to come by and I have had some good discussions with them. I agree with what they have touched on concerning avoiding sin, but haven’t got in to any thing deeper, but I still remember the prayer I said to the Lord before my conformation. And I suspect the Holy Spirit is witness to this. I’m struggling with revalation and being tempted at the same time. So I try fasting at times to help in rev. Fast from sin and pray at the thought of it, seek the Lord, I hope He guides you, and me as well, Thanks, Tim

Dear Tim:

When you are called by God, it is so strong and real, there is nothing any human here can say to surpass the relationship God has for you with him. Your brother in Christ, tommy

 

[carol_marie]

At His Feet:

Today, even people who believe in a soul that can exist apart from the body refer to the dead as “returning to the dust”. The entire testimony of scripture on the state of the dead has to be taken into consideration. Can you please explain the meaning of the following scriptures?:

Hebrews 10:29 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Question: The writer of Hebrews says that there is something that is “worse punishment” than “dying without mercy” under the Mosaic Law. But if the wicked die and only go into a state of non-existence, how can there be such a thing as “worse punishment” ?

From the Beloved Disciple

Revelation 20:10, 15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever… and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Question: What is the plain meaning of the word “torment”? What is the plain meaning of the words “forever and ever”?

The words of our Lord:

Matthew 8:11, 12 - 11: I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be throwninto the outer darkness**; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 13:41, 42 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, `Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’**

Matthew 24:50-51 …the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Matthew 25:30 …cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 25:45-46 Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luke 13:27-28 27: But he will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.

Question: What is the plain meaning of the words in these scriptures? (Notice that some scriptures, for example Matt 25:30 and 24:51, explicitly show that the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” takes place after the punishment has been inflicted, not in anticipation of it)

Excellent post. I’m curious to know how the JW’s explain these scriptures??

 

[tommy4321]

OK, we got the Carol cheerleading section going here again I might not be able to tell you the Witness view, but I can read the Bible then tell you my view.
At His Feet:

Today, even people who believe in a soul that can exist apart from the body refer to the dead as “returning to the dust”

. So where would it indicate in the Bible that one of God’s creatures burns in a fiery pit? Genesis 3:17-20 says real plain that Adam would return to dust. If you created something that could live, but didn’t like how it came out, would you torture it forever? No, we are created in God’s image and he is a loving merciful God not this tormenting God. He has given us a chance for everlasting life since he loved us.

Hebrews 10:29 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

The Son of God is a forgiving. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is one against the Holy Spirit. Jesus replaced the Mosaic law with the new covenent. Rememer in the OT they even stoned a guy for gathering wood on the Sabbith day. Matthew 12:31-32 “On this account I say to you. Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this sytem of things nor it that to come”,
At His Feet:

The writer of Hebrews says that there is something that is “worse punishment” than “dying without mercy” under the Mosaic Law. But if the wicked die and only go into a state of non-existence, how can there be such a thing as “worse punishment” ?

Worse punishment by who? Punnishment by God? So God creates something doesn’t like how it comes out and torments it forever and ever. Does this sound like the soveriegn God is angry and into tormenting? No, I don’t believe that. As I said he is a loving God. Where does it say in the Bible that people are going to burn in a fiery hell pit? It doesn’t it says you will either return to dust and be resurrected with an everlating life in a paradise earth or be part of the 144,000 ruling class. It doesn’t say purgatory once in the Bible, a false Catholic belief.

]
Revelation 20:10, 15

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire… What is the plain meaning of the word “torment”? What is the plain meaning of the words “forever and ever”?It basically means test by proving stone (ba’sa-nos) and in the Christian Greek scriptures is used with a sense of vexing with grievous pains being harassed or distressed. It does not mean that God is inflicting pain and we should fear him because of that, he is a loving God. The word torment is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat in scriptues Matthew 14:24 and Mark 6:48. It is not used as to how God will inflict pain.
At His Feet:

Matthew 8:11, 12 - 11: I tell you…weep and gnash their teeth.

Matthew 13:41, 42 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire;** there men will weep and gnash their teeth.**

Matthew 22:13 gnash their teeth.’

Matthew 24:50-51 … gnash their teeth.

Matthew 25:30 … gnash their teeth.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into **eternal punishment**, but the righteous into eternal life." ** Luke 13:27-28 27:** But he will say, I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.
**
Question:** What is the plain meaning of the words in these scriptures? explicitly show that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth…)
Note here men have teeth. Souls after death do not have teeth so there is nothing to gnash. These refer to human punishement who have teeth to gnash and does not pertain to our discussion that Adan simply returned to dust or the scripture in Genesis could have said that Adam would be sentenced to eternity gnashing his teeth, which it does not say. God said that Adam would “return to dust”. Eternal punishment just means never having a chance for everlasting life with Jesus (can’t get back, punished for ever) Going on a school tour tomorrow at SF SBC Park so if I don’t put anything up tomorrow, I am not ignoring.

 

[allhers]

Tommy, could I ask when was the last time you went to confession in the Catholic Church? Just curious. Thanks.

 

[At_His_Feet]

Tommy - First of all, I have to say that it was uncalled for you to use sarcasm against carol marie like that; I hope that those in charge of monitoring such things take note.

Your responses to my points about 1) people today who use the term “returning to the dust”, but still believe in a soul that survives death, and 2) Hebrews 10:29 were unclear to me. If you would like to restate your responses, I will try to understand. Hebrews 10:29 shows that there is a “worse punishment” than “death without mercy” under the Mosaic law. Without belief in a conscious punishment after death, how is that scripture understood? I feel that the point I brought out from Hebrews 10:29 has not been answered.

In your reponse to the “torment” scripture in Revelation 20:10, you brought into discussion the meaning of the original language word translated as “torment”. It is interesting that the JW argument resorts to discussion of the original language word, inasmuch as the anonymous translators of the New World Translation themselves chose (from all the English words available to them) the word “torment” as the best translation of the original Greek word. They certainly had latitude to translate that word in a way that was more comformable to their belief system (as they did in many other places in their translation), but still they used the word “torment” as the best choice. In this they agree with other translators. I will have to choose to go with the concensus of translators (including the translators of the New World Translation), in this case.

You said “So God creates something doesn’t like how it comes out and torments it forever and ever. Does this sound like the soveriegn God is angry and into tormenting? No, I don’t believe that” It is not if WE THINK that God would allow, or do, this or that, but what is the testimony of scripture? The human sense of justice is flawed. Be careful of inserting our own human reasoning into the discussion, especially when it is used to contradict the plain meaning of words. Peter warned us about those who would “twist scripture to their own destruction” 2 Peter 3:16. The majority of passages I cited were from the words of Jesus Himself , the One who said “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” Matthew 24:35. One must wonder - if Jesus had meant to teach non-existence after death, was this the way to do it?

As far as your points concerning “gnashing of teeth”; whether or not those who are resurrected and judged for eternal punishment have “teeth” or not, I would not want to say. John tells us that “it does not yet appear what we shall be” 1 John 3:2. There is ample scripture testimony that “gnashing of teeth” refers to a state of anguish: ( Job 16:9; Ps 35:16; 37:12; 112:10; Lamentations 2:16.) But I wonder - had we been in the presence of our Lord 2000 years ago, would we have dared to be so analytical (what do you mean by THAT?) about His words in His presence? The meaning is clear. He is obviously talking about a state of anguish, and it is difficult to explain these words in any other way than conscious punishment after death. (Take note also - your questioning of the words “gnashing of teeth” did nothing to provide an explanation of what those scriptures really mean…)

(Additionally - the JW insistence on a “literal” interpretation of “gnashing of teeth” should come across as quite strange to anyone really famliar with JW teachings; i.e. how they change from “literal” to “figurative” interpretations, sometimes even in adjacent verses - see their interpretation of Revelation 14:3-4, the number “144, 000” is literal, according to them, the “virgins” is not.)

 

[At_His_Feet]

(Part 2)

You’ve referred several times to “returning to dust”. If that were the only statement made in scripture about the condition of the dead, than we could say “so be it; that settles it”. But there is more - much, much more. As I’ve shown, that phrase is used today even by those who also believe in a soul that survives the death of the body.

The unstated question in all of this is: Is there something in man that consciously survives death? Without getting into a discussion of the meaning of the original language terms for “soul” or “spirit” (The Catholic Church recognizes that the word “soul” has more than one meaning, see CCC #363) please note the following, asking the question "If man ceases to exist after death, how are the following scriptures explained?"

2 Corinthians 5:6-9 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1:21-24 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

1 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago - whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows - such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows - was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak
**Note **- Paul here repetitively makes a distinction between “in the body” and “out of the body”. Compare this to his statements cited above in Philippians and 2 Corinthians. - what kind of view of what a person consists of underlies these statements?

2 Timothy 4:6-7 For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Note - Paul used the word “departure”. If you went to a funeral today and heard the speaker say that the deceased has “departed”, what kind of belief concerning the state of the dead would you assume that person has?

2 Peter 1:13 -14 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
**Note **- Peter says “I am in this earthly dwelling”, not, “I am this earthly dwelling”. what part of Peter was “in” his earthly dwelling?

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by tommy4321
Note here men have teeth. Souls after death do not have teeth so there is nothing to gnash.

This is the same literal mindness that says, ‘there can be no Chair of Peter because Peter’s chair cannot have survived 2000 years.’

 

[tommy4321]

At His Feet:

Tommy - First of all, I have to say that it was uncalled for you to use sarcasm against carol marie like that; I hope that those in charge of monitoring such things take note.

Your responses to my points about 1) people today who use the term “returning to the dust”, but still believe in a soul that survives death, and 2) Hebrews 10:29 were unclear to me. If you would like to restate your responses, I will try to understand. Hebrews 10:29 shows that there is a “worse punishment” than “death without mercy” under the Mosaic law. Without belief in a conscious punishment after death, how is that scripture understood? I feel that the point I brought out from Hebrews 10:29 has not been answered.

In your reponse to the “torment” scripture in Revelation 20:10, you brought into discussion the meaning of the original language word translated as “torment”. It is interesting that the JW argument resorts to discussion of the original language word, inasmuch as the anonymous translators of the New World Translation themselves chose (from all the English words available to them) the word “torment” as the best translation of the original Greek word. They certainly had latitude to translate that word in a way that was more comformable to their belief system (as they did in many other places in their translation), but still they used the word “torment” as the best choice. In this they agree with other translators. I will have to choose to go with the concensus of translators (including the translators of the New World Translation), in this case.

You said “So God creates something doesn’t like how it comes out and torments it forever and ever. Does this sound like the soveriegn God is angry and into tormenting? No, I don’t believe that” It is not if WE THINK that God would allow, or do, this or that, but what is the testimony of scripture? The human sense of justice is flawed. Be careful of inserting our own human reasoning into the discussion, especially when it is used to contradict the plain meaning of words. Peter warned us about those who would “twist scripture to their own destruction” 2 Peter 3:16. The majority of passages I cited were from the words of Jesus Himself , the One who said “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” Matthew 24:35. One must wonder - if Jesus had meant to teach non-existence after death, was this the way to do it?

As far as your points concerning “gnashing of teeth”; whether or not those who are resurrected and judged for eternal punishment have “teeth” or not, I would not want to say. John tells us that “it does not yet appear what we shall be” 1 John 3:2. There is ample scripture testimony that “gnashing of teeth” refers to a state of anguish: ( Job 16:9; Ps 35:16; 37:12; 112:10; Lamentations 2:16.) But I wonder - had we been in the presence of our Lord 2000 years ago, would we have dared to be so analytical (what do you mean by THAT?) about His words in His presence? The meaning is clear. He is obviously talking about a state of anguish, and it is difficult to explain these words in any other way than conscious punishment after death. (Take note also - your questioning of the words “gnashing of teeth” did nothing to provide an explanation of what those scriptures really mean…)

(Additionally - the JW insistence on a “literal” interpretation of “gnashing of teeth” should come across as quite strange to anyone really famliar with JW teachings; i.e. how they change from “literal” to “figurative” interpretations, sometimes even in adjacent verses - see their interpretation of Revelation 14:3-4, the number “144, 000” is literal, according to them, the “virgins” is not.)

Let me ask you a few questions now, what were Jesus’ two main commandments? Plus, what do you think of disfellowshipping?

 

[tommy4321]

carol marie:

However, I am though with this thread. I feel like I’ve made my points perfectly clear…

This is all that my point was referring to in the last post.

 

[tommy4321]

catsrus:

Like Carol Marie, I too am finished with this thread.
.

Here’s another

 

[tommy4321]

At His Feet:

“worse punishment” than "death…

My only point here is that we don’t have this God of punishment to be feared at this mean person. I think it is another false teaching. We have a God of kindness, forgiveness, patience,understanding and love.

 

[tommy4321]

allhers:

Tommy, could I ask when was the last time you went to confession in the Catholic Church? Just curious. Thanks.

It was a few years back and sort or strange. There were a bunch of priests standing in the back of the church and just as I was getting to the juicey stuff he sort of rushed through it like don’t worry much not so bad. I didn’t get the repeated prayer rosary type of sentence. Why do those old folks still repeat prayers over and over with the rosary when the Bible says not to pray like that?

 

[tommy4321]

John Lennon says it pretty good here about the false fiery hell and similar topics:

Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
living for today

I… Imagine there’s no country
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You… you may say that I’m a dreamer
but I’m not the only one
I hope some day you’ll join us
and the world will be as one.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed nor hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You… you may say that I’m a dreamer
but I’m not the only one
I hope some day you’ll join us
and the world will live as one.