Every religion in the world is convinced they are right, what sets us apart?

[cheddarsox]

kremisos:

The point I was trying to make is nothing sets the Catholics apart. If you want to convince your friend that God exists, you’ll either have to help him discover this within himself or point out the flaws in his beliefs. Without question our origin is unknown by physical explanations only. Evolution is flawed, because we have no common ancestor with homo erectus. Neandarthal man co-existed with us upon our emergence into this world, and homo erectus was long dead. While evolution might explain scientifically how other things came to be, it certainly doesn’t explain homo sapiens emergence here. That really only leaves two options:

**Gotta challenge this idea.
The fact that humans can’t explain something doesn’t make the choices default into only these two.
**

1. We’re native to another planet.
2. We’re the result of creationism.

While there is no supporting evidence to the first point, from a scientific perspective alone it can’t be entirely discarded, however there is another hole in the theory of evolution. Organic material does not come from inorganic material. While this might be possible in the movies such as Frankenstein, that’s just not real life.

Organic molecules have been created out of raw materials in lab conditions.

So say a big bang happened one day. Where was it possible to sustain life prior to this bang? Most atheists are atheists because they believe in what is tangible to them. Common sense tells us that we are not the result of random, infinite, freak occurences of nature. It’s not only that it’s unlikely, but it’s just plain out impossible. We cannot even make life on a single cellular level with all the technology that we have from inorganic material.

Satan may have fooled us in the Garden of Eden by opening our eyes, but even if we only believe what we see, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that our existence apart from God does not make sense. Just try not to insult your friend’s intelligence too much. =/

Be careful using these arguments, none of them “prove” the Catholic concept of God. There are nearly as many creation stories as there are cultures. Again, our inability to explain how things got here does not automatically default into the Catholic God being the only reasonable explanation.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

Magicsilence:

p.s the reason for this thread is an atheist friend who will take a lot of convincing, I am attempting to pose all questions he will post in an effort to show Him the Truth. I cant do it by myself.

I read a great thing on another thread yesterday, It was posted as St Franicis’ advice on sharing the Gospel. It went like this. “Share the gospel continually, resort to words only as a last resort”

If this person is your friend, and they see your life, how you handle things etc. If they see how your faith supports your life etc, that is the best introduction to the faith they can ever get. Faith isn’t just reason. Reason alone can never explain the complexity of life. There is a whole lot of stuff that just denies explanation. All of us, even atheists, live a great deal of our life on faith. We end up doing what works, even when we don’t understand it. (I don’t understand how my car’s engine works, yet I trust it enough to turn the key)

If your friend respects you and sees what works in your life, that speaks much more eloquently about the truth behind your faith than any other argument in the world ever can.

Can someone argue you and reason you out of your faith? Most likely not, because your experience tells you it is truth. I think the only real way to win anyone over is to allow experience to show them the truth.

If the faith is truth, it will show in our lives, and those around us will see the truth of it. Conversion of the heart, not the mind.

I don’t know your friend, but many atheists cite hypocrisy and the lack of love among God’s followers as one of the reasons they don’t believe.

cheddar

 

[Cleb_Calimutan]

The nature of the intellect is infallible, it can recognize truth from falsity. It can only err when due to lack of information: like theprimitive people who thought that the earth was flat, but since such idea provides no complete evidence, it will fall into the domain of opinion and the adherers has the propensity to doubt it. That is the case of other religions due to lack of information, that they believe what is seemingly true as correct on the contrary since the intellect is infallable it will always recognize that their belief is not satisfactory hence it will them to further invistagation, unitl such, that they would arive the perfection of knowledge; in that stage that they will then recognize the perfection of Catholic Faith, thus convertion always happend to an open mind. Thats why we need to evangelize them, for them to recogmize the truth and accept it, and this is so that St. Paul said “Faith comes from hearing.”

 

[Magicsilence]

cheddarsox:

I read a great thing on another thread yesterday, It was posted as St Franicis’ advice on sharing the Gospel. It went like this. “Share the gospel continually, resort to words only as a last resort”

I love saint francis, he is my confirmation saint!

If this person is your friend, and they see your life, how you handle things etc. If they see how your faith supports your life etc, that is the best introduction to the faith they can ever get.

I know, i know, but we both finished college and are heading off to different universities this sunday, the problem is we are very far apart, I only recently began to try and live my faith rather than just watching it from the sidelines, so he hasnt really seen me being catholic so to speak.

Faith isn’t just reason. Reason alone can never explain the complexity of life. There is a whole lot of stuff that just denies explanation. All of us, even atheists, live a great deal of our life on faith. We end up doing what works, even when we don’t understand it. (I don’t understand how my car’s engine works, yet I trust it enough to turn the key)

Yup.

If your friend respects you and sees what works in your life, that speaks much more eloquently about the truth behind your faith than any other argument in the world ever can.

As above.

Can someone argue you and reason you out of your faith? Most likely not, because your experience tells you it is truth. I think the only real way to win anyone over is to allow experience to show them the truth.

Out of interest, i seem to remember you saying you no longer held to catholicism (then again i might be wrong), do you mind explaining why, in light of what you just said?

If the faith is truth, it will show in our lives, and those around us will see the truth of it. Conversion of the heart, not the mind.

While i agree entirely, the guy i am referring to needs proof for everything, he has to know its the right thing, and im afraid showing him through loving him wouldnt work.

I don’t know your friend, but many atheists cite hypocrisy and the lack of love among God’s followers as one of the reasons they don’t believe.

Many, but not my friend, he was a hindu, abandoned that, i think, because of common sense, and sees it therefore as an indication that God cant exist, i.e he was on the kind of thinking that all religions are the same leading to God, and therefore if one was wrong, it most probably meant god didnt exist.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Mijoy2]

G.K Chesterton’s Everlasting Man - the chapter on comparative religion may be of help.

 

[cheddarsox]

Magicsilence:

Out of interest, i seem to remember you saying you no longer held to catholicism (then again i might be wrong), do you mind explaining why, in light of what you just said?

*You are correct Magic, I am not Catholic. But I understand that Catholics hold Catholicism to be truth, that many know it is truth, the same way I know my faith is truth. And I understand that they cannot be argued out of what they have experienced as truth, even as I cannot be.

I do not have to share the faith to acknowledge and respect the authenicity of the believers and their integrity.
*

While i agree entirely, the guy i am referring to needs proof for everything, he has to know its the right thing, and im afraid showing him through loving him wouldnt work.

*I don’t believe you can intellectually prove the truth of your beliefs. I do not believe there exists the kind of evidence it would take to convince your friend intellectually. However, if the proof is in the pudding, then the way the truth plays out in your life, or the lives of other Catholics that he respects, might be enough to open other avenues of acceptance within him.

I am a scientist, so I understand the need for proof, but I also understand that there are simply things that we currently cannot know with certainty. That is reality, even for your friend. yet we live, yet we go on, on faith.

Part of the situation could be your friends age and amount of life experience. The way he believes is rather common for one in his stage of life, and level of education. Don’t sweat over it, he (and all of us) have a great many lessons ahead of us. And you may have shared something with him that he will dust off and rethink at another point in his life.
*

Many, but not my friend, he was a hindu, abandoned that, i think, because of common sense, and sees it therefore as an indication that God cant exist, i.e he was on the kind of thinking that all religions are the same leading to God, and therefore if one was wrong, it most probably meant god didnt exist.

One of the finest graduation speeches (university)I have ever heard was given by the man who headed the human genome project. He told the students that one of the most important tasks ahead of them was to decide what they would do about God, because the issue would come up again, and again in their lives. I have certainly found this to be true, and am confident that your friend will have many opportunities to revisit his thinking on this, and I hope you are able to stay in touch and offer your story if/when he needs to hear it.

Thanks for the response.

Your welcome,
cheddar

 

[Pete2]

Magicsilence:

As above, every religion has a number of proofs that they are correct, each deny every other religion, and each are convinced that they are the one true religion.

How are we any different from the rest of the world religions.

On a side note, if everyone in the world is convinced that their religion is correct, how can anyone go to hell?

You can’t prove any religion, including Catholicism. It all comes down to faith. It requires strength of faith to believe that Catholicism is different. Who goes to hell, or not, is up to God, it doesn’t matter what a bunch of people on earth in 2005 AD think. Truth isn’t subject to popular vote.

Pete

 

[Shadowcry]

Pete2:

You can’t prove any religion, including Catholicism. It all comes down to faith. It requires strength of faith to believe that Catholicism is different. Who goes to hell, or not, is up to God, it doesn’t matter what a bunch of people on earth in 2005 AD think. Truth isn’t subject to popular vote.

Pete

So true.

 

[Sherlock]

Cleb Calimutan:

The nature of the intellect is infallible, it can recognize truth from falsity. It can only err when due to lack of information: like theprimitive people who thought that the earth was flat, but since such idea provides no complete evidence, it will fall into the domain of opinion and the adherers has the propensity to doubt it. That is the case of other religions due to lack of information, that they believe what is seemingly true as correct on the contrary since the intellect is infallable it will always recognize that their belief is not satisfactory hence it will them to further invistagation, unitl such, that they would arive the perfection of knowledge; in that stage that they will then recognize the perfection of Catholic Faith, thus convertion always happend to an open mind. Thats why we need to evangelize them, for them to recogmize the truth and accept it, and this is so that St. Paul said “Faith comes from hearing.”

I take it that you are not Catholic, as the idea that the intellect is infallible is contrary to Catholic teaching. The darkening of the intellect is one of the effects of the fall, an effect that still remains after Baptism.

 

[kremisos]

cheddarsox:

Be careful using these arguments, none of them “prove” the Catholic concept of God. There are nearly as many creation stories as there are cultures. Again, our inability to explain how things got here does not automatically default into the Catholic God being the only reasonable explanation.

cheddar

There is only one God, and he is not a Catholic, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, nor does he belong to any other religion. Religion did not make God. It hardly matters what concept of God someone has as long as they know him. The Holy Spirit is a birthright of every man according to the New Covenant that God made with us. It is not reserved for people of specific religions, nor should it be treated as such. To know God is to trust him. The more trust you put in religion, dogma, doctrines, rituals, men, and the world, the more distance you put between yourself and your creator. While most relgions have their uses, it is not up to a Church to help a man find God. It is up to that man, and other believers who can help him. God is God and he is unchangeable. He does not lie to men. The same Spirit in you, is in me, and every other man in the world.

Aside from that, I would not be so willing to convince a man to follow the principles of Catholocism. Christ told us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is. This was not a suggestion, this was a command. Christ died so that we might be forigven our sins.
*
HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.*

We are far beyond the times of priests making sin offerings. The highest priest, has already made that sacrifice by shedding his blood for us. You are married to his body as you would be married to a wife. You are either faithful or you are not. There is no middleground. (Line removed by Moderator)

I was much like you at one time, and put my trust in the Catholic Church. I led a life of sin, and still strive to rid myself of it. God has taught me what man could not though.

I do not type this for my own benefit but for yours. The end is near my friend, and there are spiritual forces in this world that are more evil than any other time in our history. Do not make yourself an enemy of God, by trusting in the world.

 

[Petergee]

kremisos:

I don’t mean to seem argumentative here by any means, and I know this is a Catholic forum, but assuming that you mean the Catholic Church in this statement, isn’t that a bit of a pretentious claim?

Christ defined the Church as a marriage between him and his people. We are all members of his body. So am I to believe the Catholics or Jesus Christ regarding this matter? I’m sorry, but I’m just not following this logic.

In my mind, no servant is greater than his master, so what really sets aside the Catholics or makes them anything but a man made institution? Is not believing yourself and other members of the same faith above Christ’s other servants, prideful and arrogant? If we all truly trusted and believed in the same God would there be any divisions? Are not divisions caused by doubts and putting too much trust in the world and man?

As I mentioned earlier, I’m not attacking Catholics here, nor am I trying to be argumentative. I have my own beliefs and they work for me and always have. I’m just baffled by this religion. I was once a devout Catholic myself, and was taught many of the same things, but a lot of these things defied everything I’d known of God since I was a child.

I guess at this point what I find most confusing is we all share the same Spirit. How can the Spirit tell you that a religious organization is the ultimate authority on God, and not tell me the same thing?

I can see how to someone who believes the Catholic Church was also founded by men, it is a very pretentious claim indeed. Just as it would be very pretentious for any man to claim he is God. Yet Jesus Christ did so, and in His case it was true.

To continue the analogy, I would say that non-Catholic Christians are people taking the path which Christ has built, but they veer off it to a greater or lesser extent onto man-made paths.

The Apostles didn’t found the Church themselves. God founded the Church IN them at the Last Supper and at Pentecost. Yes indeed, the divisions in and from the Church are caused by pride and putting too much trust in the world and men.

Catholics don’t believe themselves “better” than others. In fact more is expected of us because we have no excuse for not knowing the truth and being aware of all our sins.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Would anyone say it’s correct to say Catholics don’t look at themselves as better than anyone, but they do look at themselves as better off than others?

 

[kremisos]

So you believe that the Catholic Organization is the Body of Christ?

*** RO 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.***

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any mention of Catholics or world organizations in this passage. The Church is not a building or an organization. The Church is you, I, and every other human being on this planet. Christ is the head of this Church. Anything else is defiance and disobedience to the Word of God.

I’m sorry if you disagree with this, but I feel that if you trusted in the Word as it is written not only in your heart and mind, but also in the Bible itself, you would see the truth in this. The Word does not change to suit man. The Word is forever and lasting. Man changes what he wants to change to suit him.

 

[Lazerlike42]

This is a question I’ve been struggling with. It’s along the same lines as the side note. It might even be the same question asked in a different way. Maybe it will get more clear answers if ask it this way:

The only way a person can go to Hell is by committing actual mortal sin. The Church also teaches that if somebody is invincibly ignorant and lives up to whatever Grace God has given them, they can be saved. Now here’s the problem: how can they not be saved? In other words, if some tribesman living in Africa somewhere has never heard any teachings of Christ, and thinks through invincible ignorance that there is nothing wrong with some grave sin, he might do it. Now according to the Church, only mortal sin can damn a person. The sin can’t be mortal for this tribesman because he doesn’t have full knowledge. So how can this person not be saved?

 

[Lazerlike42]

kremisos:

So you believe that the Catholic Organization is the Body of Christ?

*** RO 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.***

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any mention of Catholics or world organizations in this passage. The Church is not a building or an organization. The Church is you, I, and every other human being on this planet. Christ is the head of this Church. Anything else is defiance and disobedience to the Word of God.

“But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”

The idea that the church is only the unified body of all believers is contradicted by this passage. First Christ instructs a person to confront a disagreement with his brother one on one. If this fails, he is to take this disagreement to two or three others. By the definition of the church as just the body of all believers, then this would be an instruction to take them to the church. However, this can’t be the case, because next Christ says that the person is to go to the church. By the “invisible body” definition, the men already went to the church, so Jesus’ command would be gibberish.

If we are to use the “invisible body” definition, then another problem is presented here. Jesus has just told us to go to 2 or 3 men, which is the church according to this definition. If this isn’t good enough, He then tells us to go to the church. Since he already had us go to a small group of the church, we would have to conclude that by using the word church He means the whole church. Going to the whole church would be impossible as it consists of countless believers everywhere by this definition.

If we say that the Church is an institution, on the other hand, none of these problems come up.

 

[cheddarsox]

Magic,

You asked me a question in an earlier post. I answered it but made a mistake and it looks just like a long quote italicized, so I don’t know if you bothered to read the answer, because it doesn’t look like and answer. Anyway, I just wanted you to know, so you don’t think I blew you off or anything. So, see above where it looks like all I said is “your welcome” and read in the box instead.

sorry,

cheddar

 

[kremisos]

Lazerlike42:

The only way a person can go to Hell is by committing actual mortal sin. The Church also teaches that if somebody is invincibly ignorant and lives up to whatever Grace God has given them, they can be saved. Now here’s the problem: how can they not be saved? In other words, if some tribesman living in Africa somewhere has never heard any teachings of Christ, and thinks through invincible ignorance that there is nothing wrong with some grave sin, he might do it. Now according to the Church, only mortal sin can damn a person. The sin can’t be mortal for this tribesman because he doesn’t have full knowledge. So how can this person not be saved?

*** "The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

HEB 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

HEB 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.***

There is no such thing as a man without the Law. Also in what universe did Christ or any other apostle say it was ok to sin as long as it wasn’t a mortal sin? Sin is sin. It’s defiance of God, and his son’s blood that was shed so that we might have our final sin offering. Did Christ tell us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is or did he tell us to bask in our imperfections, because we’ll be forgiven in a confessional booth?

Love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind; love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies too. This was Christ’s command to us. Following this we have fulfilled the law. Do you know what it means to love your neighbor as yourself? It means that you are as concerned about his welfare (whether or not he has food, shelter, and clothing) as you are of your own.

You cannot just continue to sin, and expect salvation. Heaven is not for everyone, nor is it for the majority. Christ said the rich had the same chances of seeing heaven as does a camel does in jumping through the eye of a needle. If you have more than food, shelther, and clothing are you not rich? I would be considered poor by most in my current state, but I am rich. Do you think my odds are favorable when there are people suffering and dying on my very streets?

I’m sorry if you disagree, but religion is a security blanket for people to go on about their wordly lives and forget about the things that are of greater importance. The same God that rules me, rules you, and no religion can take away from or add to his Word without being subject to his wrath.

 

[Petergee]

kremisos:

So you believe that the Catholic Organization is the Body of Christ?

*** RO 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.***

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any mention of Catholics or world organizations in this passage. The Church is not a building or an organization. The Church is you, I, and every other human being on this planet. Christ is the head of this Church. Anything else is defiance and disobedience to the Word of God.

I’m sorry if you disagree with this, but I feel that if you trusted in the Word as it is written not only in your heart and mind, but also in the Bible itself, you would see the truth in this. The Word does not change to suit man. The Word is forever and lasting. Man changes what he wants to change to suit him.

You seem to think that the Catholic Cghurch is or should be based on or made from the words of the Bible. The Bible did not make the Church. The Church made the Bible. Catholics believe not only in merely the Bible which the Catholic Church made, but in the TOTALITY of the faith which Christ gave to the Apostles, SOME of which they and other Catholic bishops and priests later wrote down in the New Testament. The Bible is pretty misleading and confusing if you try to use it on your own without the Church that produced it.

 

[Magicsilence]

There is no such thing as a man without the Law. Also in what universe did Christ or any other apostle say it was ok to sin as long as it wasn’t a mortal sin? Sin is sin. It’s defiance of God, and his son’s blood that was shed so that we might have our final sin offering. Did Christ tell us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is or did he tell us to bask in our imperfections, because we’ll be forgiven in a confessional booth?

I think that you are at the beginning of a long spiritual journey, indicative by the assumptions you make about Our beautiful faith, which are all WRONG, might I add. Why dont you study our faith before attacking it.

Love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind; love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies too. This was Christ’s command to us. Following this we have fulfilled the law. Do you know what it means to love your neighbor as yourself? It means that you are as concerned about his welfare (whether or not he has food, shelter, and clothing) as you are of your own.

You cannot just continue to sin, and expect salvation. Heaven is not for everyone, nor is it for the majority. Christ said the rich had the same chances of seeing heaven as does a camel does in jumping through the eye of a needle. If you have more than food, shelther, and clothing are you not rich? I would be considered poor by most in my current state, but I am rich. Do you think my odds are favorable when there are people suffering and dying on my very streets?

No one expects to go to heaven. We can only do Our best. To presume Gods mercy is a sin.

Also, Christ is pretty clear that perfection comes from within the mind, God does not judge our outward appearances.

I’m sorry if you disagree, but religion is a security blanket for people to go on about their wordly lives and forget about the things that are of greater importance. The same God that rules me, rules you, and no religion can take away from or add to his Word without being subject to his wrath.

Religion means faith in God, if you think faith in God is a security blanket to go about sinning, then you are very confused, like this little smiley -

Those who have faith in God will not desire to sin, in fact it will be the most repulsive act imaginable, upsetting the very being that they worship.

You have some very skewed ideas about religion and our faith in general.

 

[kremisos]

Petergee:

You seem to think that the Catholic Cghurch is or should be based on or made from the words of the Bible. The Bible did not make the Church. The Church made the Bible. Catholics believe not only in merely the Bible which the Catholic Church made, but in the TOTALITY of the faith which Christ gave to the Apostles, SOME of which they and other Catholic bishops and priests later wrote down in the New Testament. The Bible is pretty misleading and confusing if you try to use it on your own without the Church that produced it.

The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. They may have had a large influence in translating texts, but to say the Catholics produced it is more than a slight oversight. The Bible is a compilation of ancient texts written by God through man. You assumption that the Catholics made the Bible, would also suggest that the Catholics made the Jews and God himself.