Everyone Has An Excuse For Not Wanting To Become A Catholic.

[ALLFORHIM]

you mean a Book speaks ?

ABSOLUTELY!! The bible is the living breathing word of God that isnt just a book of words but a book that(by reading through the eys of the Holy Spirit)can change lives.
I dont mean it speaks audibly but you have never found the word of God speak to you in some area of your life?
You know those moments when you are searching the scriptures and a verse or passage just jumps out at you and you say THATS IT THATS THE ANSWER IM LOOKING FOR!!!

If you havent a clue what Im talking about then I will pray that God shows this awesome experience through His written word to us.

“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine of Hippo, Against the Letter of Mani, 397 A.D…

Too bad you are letting men guide you instead of the Holy Spirit I will pray for you.

 

[guanophore]

From God himself–the bible.

You know, this kind of expression is really scary for me. I had it too when I was living as a fundamentalist. It seems like a form of 'bibliolatry", just like some accuse fantatical Catholics of “mariolatry”. The Bible, precious and sacred though we consider it, is not God Himself.

When I was saved 12 years ago--God opened my eyes to the gospel message and I believed. The message is not difficult to understand. Especially when you hae the Holy Spirit guiding you and protecting you.:shrug:  I dont find it too difficult.

Granted I certainly dont know everything, but Im learning. Part of this process of learning and discerning was studying catholocism. I knew nothing of catholocism(except they had a pope)before I started. Didnt know what they believed except they did believe in the trinity and Christ.

So I came to the table with the thought we all believed the same stuff.
As I started to learn what catholocism teaches–I cant tell you how many times my mouth fell open in shock and disbelief

I was so taken back I couldnt believe. So I started to check what they were teaching against what the bible said and I prayed for the HS to show me the truth(catholic or not–believe it or not I was open to the CC teachings ) The Holy Spirit continually led me away from what the CC is teaching:shrug:

Then I must add my question to that of righteousone. Who is teaching you about Catholicism? I ask this because there is an awful lot of misinformation out there, and downright lies being taught.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You know, this kind of expression is really scary for me. I had it too when I was living as a fundamentalist. It seems like a form of 'bibliolatry", just like some accuse fantatical Catholics of “mariolatry”. The Bible, precious and sacred though we consider it, is not God Himself.

I understand and certainly know that. But it is His word to us so we can know who God is and what He wants from us as His children. There is no where else to go for that.

Then I must add my question to that of righteousone

. Did he ask me a question I missed it

Who is teaching you about Catholicism? I ask this because there is an awful lot of misinformation out there, and downright lies being taught.{/QUOTE]
Well, from here, many catholic websites, the library CAF has. Scripture catholic.com. I have a website with the baltimore catechism and the ECF. I also bought a catholic bible:thumbsup:

I believe you about misinformed. ALL the catholics I know do not represent what the church teaches. I actually know more then they do I have even corrected them on what they thought the CC taught.

 

[po18guy]

If I believed the CC was started by Christ, I would be Catholic…but I don’t…I do not find the evidence compelling at all…I see history and a growth of an emerging organization that “claims” to be what I do not find any evidence in those claims.

I have been to mass, but do not find it “speaks to my condition”…I don’t need to make up “invalid” reasons to not be Catholic…I have very valid reasons…I simply do not believe it’s claims…but for those who do IF it answers the questions of their lives and brings them closer to God…IF being Catholic brings them closer to their neighbor and causes them to be kind, considerate of others, show mercy, compassion, seek justice for those who cannot speak for themselves…live according to the two greatest commandments…great!!! My deepest longings and needs have been answered elsewhere.

Keep seeking the truth. Never stop.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Doyle_Mashern]

I have heard over and over again how people here were going to become Catholic but a priest said this, or a priest said that, or someone here said something I didn’t like, or I don’t like this person who is Catholic, therefore I won’t become one, I don’t care for the Mass…etc…there are countless invalid excuses for not wanting to become a Catholic.

What about becoming a Catholic because CHRIST STARTED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? How about that reason? There will be people here finding fault with this statement as well, but to reject Christ’s one true church because of something someone said is totally absurd and a terrible excuse for not wanting to be with Jesus Christ and His Roman Catholic church.

Unfortunately, one cannot just press a little button in their head to make them believe something. Either one believes it or they don’t. Everyone is on a journey. Maybe we could be positive and follow Christ’s example to lead people to the Truth. The problem with Christians is that they talk way too much about how others ought to live rather than teaching the message of the Gospel through actions in obedience to Him. We will be known by our fruits (Matthew 7:20), not by our debating skills.

 

[po18guy]

Have you heard this one:

I have learned what catholocism teaches and compared against what the bible teaches and it doesnt add up
Plain and simple for me. No emotional anything involved.

To see what the church teaches, without distortion or tinting, you must temporarily take off your Protestant glasses. With them on, it is like trying to learn English using a Spanish dictionary. The terms are different. The definitions can be different. Little wonder it makes no sense to you. It is worth a try, especially if you love Christ, and I know you do.

Christ’s peace.

 

[guanophore]

I understand and certainly know that. But it is His word to us so we can know who God is and what He wants from us as His children. There is no where else to go for that.

You know, ALLFORHIM, I was not concerned about you in that regard, having read many of your posts. I know if your love for His Word. However Jesus did not command us know who He is and what He wants from the Book, but from Himself. He is found in His Church. The Scripture is intended to point us to Him.

39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:38-41

Jesus makes no distinction between Himself, and His Body.

Did he ask me a question. I missed it!

"guanophore:

Who is teaching you about Catholicism? I ask this because there is an awful lot of misinformation out there, and downright lies being taught.

Well, from here, many catholic websites, the library CAF has. Scripture catholic.com. I have a website with the baltimore catechism and the ECF. I also bought a catholic bible:thumbsup:

Ok. I got worried when you said that Catholic Teaching and the Bible don’t line up.

I believe you about misinformed. ALL the catholics I know do not represent what the church teaches. I actually know more then they do I have even corrected them on what they thought the CC taught.

Sadly, I know you are correct on this point. The vast majority of “catholics” in America are actually Protestants, and don’t know it. They are also poorly catechized. I hope you continue to bring Christ’s truth to all you meet. :clapping:

 

[fhansen]

Yes, and here is yet another honest, heartfelt excuse from a Protestant. Granted, the Church holds a certain place in my heart. Otherwise, why would I be here reading this forum, trying to gain a more open understanding and appreciation of Catholic views? I abhor mindless attacks based off of ignorance as much as you… Yet, I keep finding myself coming back to a point of difficulty regarding the Catholic Church. It mostly comes from history.

It’s when a medieval Pope says that salvation is dependent upon subjection to him (ie Pope Boniface VIII) I become a bit apprehensive. Whose interests was he really looking out for? Another is the Eucharist. I don’t think Jesus said that only the Catholic wafer became his flesh, therefore if you want to force someone to submit to your authority, well… just withhold that wafer. How can you not take these claims as suspect? Isn’t really just about power?

I’m not trying to be rude. Honestly, I’m not. But the CC’s history isn’t perfect, yet its history is often revered as infallible. Arrogant Catholics (every belief system has them) attack the Protestant of being bas**rd children, but honestly can’t you at least understand why some, in the past, would object to the authority of the Roman pontiff? Sure, many people seized it as a means of political gain, but I’d be horrible to say that ALL early Protestant theologians were not sincere in their misgivings.

In the end, it’s a bunch of finger pointing. If we’re really going to come to a greater unity, I think we could do well to follow the words of Jesus and turn the other cheek. When ignorant Protestants attack you, deal with it like Jesus dealt with the Pharisees when he said “Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Hmmm… I think this post got away from me. But in the end, I’d like to say this: I have problems with the Church’s history but I don’t know how to reconcile it with today’s Church. Any insight into this would be most helpful.

Pope Boniface emphasized a principal that at least all Catholics should know the reason for-that in order to be able to know the faith accurately, there must be an authority which can infallibly teach that faith and decide on questions about it here and now as they come up and the only way that even makes sense is if there is a central, living, God-appointed authority. And we believe that, while good and bad popes have come and gone, not one of them changed, modified or otherwise screwed-up the faith which was once and for all handed down to us for the purpose of our salvation, while some have done much good in clarifying it. We never assert that the Churchs’ history is infallible-only that her teachings on faith and morals are.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

To see what the church teaches, without distortion or tinting, you must temporarily take off your Protestant glasses. With them on, it is like trying to learn English using a Spanish dictionary. The terms are different. The definitions can be different. Little wonder it makes no sense to you. It is worth a try, especially if you love Christ, and I know you do.

Christ’s peace.

You know that is funny because that is EXACTYLY what we would say to a catholic

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You know, ALLFORHIM, I was not concerned about you in that regard, having read many of your posts. I know if your love for His Word. However Jesus did not command us know who He is and what He wants from the Book, but from Himself. He is found in His Church. The Scripture is intended to point us to Him.

39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:38-41

Jesus makes no distinction between Himself, and His Body.

Ok. I got worried when you said that Catholic Teaching and the Bible don’t line up.

Sadly, I know you are correct on this point. The vast majority of “catholics” in America are actually Protestants, and don’t know it. They are also poorly catechized. I hope you continue to bring Christ’s truth to all you meet. :clapping:

Thank you for your post

 

[wisdomseeker]

ABSOLUTELY!! The bible is the living breathing word of God that isnt just a book of words but a book that(by reading through the eys of the Holy Spirit)can change lives.
I dont mean it speaks audibly but you have never found the word of God speak to you in some area of your life?
You know those moments when you are searching the scriptures and a verse or passage just jumps out at you and you say THATS IT THATS THE ANSWER IM LOOKING FOR!!!

If you havent a clue what Im talking about then I will pray that God shows this awesome experience through His written word to us.

Tell me how did you get a hold of this Book? the Bible? do you know where it came from?

**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine of Hippo, Against the Letter of Mani, 397 A.D… **

 

[po18guy]

You know that is funny because that is EXACTYLY what we would say to a catholic

Ask a Catholic who left for another faith what they knew and what they remember about their old faith. Then ask a convert to the Catholic faith what they knew and what they remember about their old faith. Big difference, if you’re willing to do it.

But, if you’re absolutely delighted where you are, I wonder what you are doing here…

Christ’s peace.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Ask a Catholic who left for another faith what they knew and what they remember about their old faith. Then ask a convert to the Catholic faith what they knew and what they remember about their old faith. Big difference, if you’re willing to do it.

Been there done that and your right BIG difference

But, if you’re absolutely delighted where you are, I wonder what you are doing here…

I ask myself that–defending the faith I suppose—but originally I came here to check out catholocism. My hubby and family and MANY friends are catholic(allbeit–name only),so I figure why not learn about it. Always good to know what other churches teach.

Christ’s peace

And you

 

[ALLFORHIM]

B]Tell me how did you get a hold of this Book? the Bible?

I bought it at a book store Of course I cant remember which one though:shrug:

do you know where it came from?

Probably a publishing company
But seriously–here this is what your looking for

Question: “How and when was the canon of the Bible put together?”

Answer: The term “canon” is used to describe the books that are divinely inspired and therefore belong in the Bible. The difficult aspect of determining the Biblical canon is that the Bible does not give us a list of the books that belong in the Bible. Determining the canon was a process, first by Jewish rabbis and scholars, and then later by early Christians. Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the Biblical canon. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It was simply a matter of God convincing His human followers which books should be included in the Bible.

Compared to the New Testament, there was very little controversy over the canon of the Old Testament. Hebrew believers recognized God’s messengers, and accepted their writings as inspired of God. There was undeniably some debate in regards to the Old Testament canon. However, by A.D. 250 there was nearly universal agreement on the canon of Hebrew Scripture. The only issue that remained was the Apocrypha…with some debate and discussion continuing today. The vast majority of Hebrew scholars considered the Apocrypha to be good historical and religious documents, but not on the same level as the Hebrew Scriptures.

For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the Apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John. The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

The councils followed something similar to the following principles to determine whether a New Testament book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit: 1) Was the author an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle? 2) Is the book being accepted by the Body of Christ at large? 3) Did the book contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching? 4) Did the book bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit? Again, it is crucial to remember that the church did not determine the canon. No early church council decided on the canon. It was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible. It was simply a matter of God convincing His followers of what He had already decided upon. The human process of collecting the books of the Bible was flawed, but God, in His sovereignty, despite our ignorance and stubbornness, brought the early church to the recognition of the books He had inspired.

 

[mozart-250]

I agree that true evangelism is one of attraction and not promotion. If we are truly living our faith, people would flock to the Church. I am curuous what you have observed that disuades you. What would you expect to see different, that might be more compelling?

Good question.

First of all, if I try to be very objective, I can not in good conscience conclude that your fruit is substantially worse than ours. My issue is that if you really are the one true church and we are heretics, I would expect your fruit to be substantially better than our fruit. I just don’t see this.

High level, every problem that I see in Catholicism, I see in us…and vice versa. In fact, I started a list…but edited it for space.

The good part is that we both have humble servants of the Lord Jesus Christ who are doing His work. The downside is that these folks sometimes get overshadowed by all of our mutual problems.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I bought it at a book store Of course I cant remember which one though:shrug: Probably a publishing company
But seriously–here this is what your looking for

Can you name those men who took part on the council to determine the Canon of Sacred Scriptures?

**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine of Hippo, Against the Letter of Mani, 397 A.D… **

 

[wisdomseeker]

You know that is funny because that is EXACTYLY what we would say to a catholic

Acts 20:28, “Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as Bishops, to rule the Church of GOD, which He has purchased with His own blood.”

As you see Jesus did build a Church and i can assure you if you look for it you shall find it.

 

[guanophore]

My issue is that if you really are the one true church and we are heretics, I would expect your fruit to be substantially better than our fruit.  I just don't see this.

What would you expect to see, in the way of fruitbearing, that you do not? Are you speaking of corporate fruit, or individual fruit?

Are you noting the lack of personal holiness in the congregation?

High level, every problem that I see in Catholicism, I see in us…and vice versa. In fact, I started a list…but edited it for space.

The good part is that we both have humble servants of the Lord Jesus Christ who are doing His work. The downside is that these folks sometimes get overshadowed by all of our mutual problems.

Yes, the mystical Body of Christ is much larger than the visible, I am sure. Do you believe there are doctrinal disunities in the Catholic church?

 

[guanophore]

Can you name those men who took part on the council to determine the Canon of Sacred Scriptures?

If you finished reading the quote (not sure where it is from) you can see that every effort is made NOT to do this!

Again, it is crucial to remember that the church did not determine the canon. No early church council decided on the canon. It was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible. It was simply a matter of God convincing His followers of what He had already decided upon. The human process of collecting the books of the Bible was flawed, but God, in His sovereignty, despite our ignorance and stubbornness, brought the early church to the recognition of the books He had inspired.

I apologize I am not sure where this is taken from, but it seems clear that it is “crucial” that the actual persons and council involved must not get any participation in th ematter, other than ignorance and stubbornness

I think this is because the reader must reject the authority of the Church to do this.

 

[Righteousone]

Has it occurred to you that others interpret the “facts” differently than you? If you will look at the post to which you are responding, it is easy to see that oncecatholic did not make any “non-factual statements”. On the contrary, the post was full of QUESTIONS!!! Legitimate ones, no less. This is another example of an unfounded accusation leveled by you against another member.

Please don’t be put off by righteousone. She is obviously not reading the posts very thoruoughly. The one above this, she is correcting a Catholic who believes that same thing she does, as if he were a Protestant.

I think the papacy issues should go to one of the papacy threads. Have you read any of them? Would you be willing to transfer this conversation to prevent derailing the thread? The papacy is an office that developed over many centuries, and all we can see of it in the NT is the tiny mustard seed.

Your tone comes through loud and clear.

Guanaphore, give it a break, will you? you are ALWAYS arguing with me…a Catholic you call yourself, so stop always arguing.