Everything that started to Exist, must have an External Cause for its Existence

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Nonsense. The nature of color is such that placing two things of the same color together does not change them. The nature of weight is such that placing two things of the same weight together does change the weight of the whole. Why? That is simply the nature of weight and the nature of color. So what, then is the case as this applies to causation? Surely, it is more like the case of color.
Why? Why can you take a relationship about a single attribute of a physical object within our universe, and say that it applies to a completely different attribute of all physical objects, such that a composite of these things has the same requirement? As I said before, you need to define how you can be sure that this follows. “Why not?” is not a credible answer.
No experiment is necessary because we know about the nature of the thing. If every single thing in our experience and the universe is caused why should we be forced to stop such reasoning when we get to the whole?
Duh - this is kinda what the Fallacy of Composition is all about - to prevent such reasoning without good evidence that it’s true.
This seems a perfectly natural extension of such reasoning and, Fesar remarks (if I read him right), then burden is on the skeptic to show that each of these things, caused, put together, suddenly become caused. (He made the point in respect to the PSR, but it seems effective here too).
If Feser can’t understand a simple concept like where the burden of proof lies, then I won’t bother to look him up. This is just one more person saying, “You must prove I’m wrong, or accept that I’m right.”

One more time, for those who’ve been asleep. The burden of proof lies with whoever makes the positive claim.
-Are you seriously suggesting that putting two caused things together makes them uncaused? This seems more like a desperate attempt to escape the force of the argument than anything else.
No, I’m not suggesting that at all, nor have I come even close to implying it. You’re just putting words in my mouth. Did you even read what I wrote?

What I am stating (not suggesting) is that you can’t look at the objects within our universe and blithely apply an arbitrary property of them to the composition of their whole, just because it suits your purpose (Well, you can, I suppose, if you don’t care about being taken seriously). You have to show that this property applies to the composition.

You seem to be saying, in a nutshell, “The Fallacy of Composition doesn’t apply here, because I reckon it doesn’t.”

But the Fallacy of Composition isn’t even the main weakness of the KCA. There are all the other fallacies I listed upthread.
 
You know, I am just amazed that people do not want to accept that God’s existence cannot be “proven” in a rational way, it must be taken on “faith” and “revelation”. I know that the cathecism states otherwise, but it is just another empty claim. When it says that God’s existence can be ascertained through rational means only, it does not say: “how”? And the believers swallow these empty claims, and do not get suspicious. They do not realize that if the cathecism would have a rational way to prove God’s existence, it would be declared in big, bold letters all over the place. And there would be no atheists. 🙂
 
You know, I am just amazed that people do not want to accept that God’s existence cannot be “proven” in a rational way, it must be taken on “faith” and “revelation”. I know that the cathecism states otherwise, but it is just another empty claim. When it says that God’s existence can be ascertained through rational means only, it does not say: “how”? And the believers swallow these empty claims, and do not get suspicious. They do not realize that if the cathecism would have a rational way to prove God’s existence, it would be declared in big, bold letters all over the place. And there would be no atheists. 🙂
I do not think so. Anyone predisposed to disbelieve will find a way to do so, even in the face of proof, which I think is abundant. And while that may not be he case with you, it is definitely the case in many others. For those who are honestly seeking, there are also many other factors and obstacles to consider, such as the failure to even understand what is being put forth, career philosophers of religion like atheist like Keith Parsons shockingly know very little about the arguments, and it shows. Antony Flew, when he converted to theism, said that he knew very little about them as well, which is shocking given how influential a philosopher he is. Well, it is not that shocking. Anyone familiar with how philosophy is taught in the schools, which are wedded to atheistic philosophy, will probably not be surprised.There is also the case that the metaphysical schema, the very foundation of the arguments, is not shared at the start, and so the arguments are dismissed off-hand.

Needless to say, things are not so simple that you can make a comment such as that.

Now, personally, if you don’t have a degree with a philosophy and don’t understand the arguments eruditely, I don’t pay much attention to what an anonymous poster on the internet says. We’re just laymen, and we tend to get things not right. That’s why I follow Ed Feser, and I think he’s down a perfect job with the arguments.
 
I just read more of the thread. The Kalam doesn’t commit the fallacy of composition. It does not argue that because things in the universe have a cause that the universe, then, must also have a cause. That is not the argument. The argument is that anything that begins to exist must have cause, which is rooted in the certainty that being cannot come from non-being without some explanation.

Give Craig more credit than that, he’s probably a lot smarter than the vast majority of people writing about this subject on the internet.
 
I just read more of the thread. The Kalam doesn’t commit the fallacy of composition. It does not argue that because things in the universe have a cause that the universe, then, must also have a cause. That is not the argument. The argument is that anything that begins to exist must have cause, which is rooted in the certainty that being cannot come from non-being without some explanation.

Give Craig more credit than that, he’s probably a lot smarter than the vast majority of people writing about this subject on the internet.
You’re right - the KCA doesn’t commit the Fallacy of Composition. It commits the fallacy of Bare Assertion in saying that “Everything that began to exist had a cause.” The Fallacy of Composition is committed by those who attempt to justify this assertion by pointing to axiomatic causal relationships within the universe, then extrapolating this principle to include the Universe.
 
I do not think so. Anyone predisposed to disbelieve will find a way to do so, even in the face of proof, which I think is abundant.
Funny that you highlighted and answered only the last sentence. However, a real, actual proof cannot be rejected. No matter how one could be predisposed against a logical proof, it cannot be denied. Maybe the argument could be misunderstood, and that would be a problem. But hand-waving, like “efficient causation” simply does not do. Reference to “necessary existence” does not wash - especially it can be proven that there is no such thing as “necessary” existence. Any proof should start from actual, observable, physical arguments, and see where they lead.
There is also the case that the metaphysical schema, the very foundation of the arguments, is not shared at the start, and so the arguments are dismissed off-hand.
There you go. Metaphysics is simply a distilled form of physics, or sheer speculation. Starting from speculation you don’t get anywhere. Starting from physics you might.
Now, personally, if you don’t have a degree with a philosophy and don’t understand the arguments eruditely, I don’t pay much attention to what an anonymous poster on the internet says. We’re just laymen, and we tend to get things not right. That’s why I follow Ed Feser, and I think he’s down a perfect job with the arguments.
No. These concepts, like contingency, causality, etc. are not esoteric, hard to understand ideas, as a matter of fact, they are very simple. The fallacies I see left and right are obvious. I reject that professional philosophers must be accepted at face value, just because they have a “name”. In science it does not matter, who says something. Name does not count. It only matters what that person says. When I see a philosopher writing sentences 5-10 lines long, filled with esoteric terminology, I throw the whole stuff away, since it is obvious that the writer has nothing to say, but wants to hide that fact. 🙂 Read argument #560 in: godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Finally, I want to reiterate, that if the catholic church did have an actual, rational argument for God’s existence, it would be displayed in the cathecism, and touted on every available forum. Why is the church so “bashful” about it?
 
It commits the fallacy of Bare Assertion in saying that “Everything that began to exist had a cause.”
As a matter of fact, it commits two Bare Assertions. One is what you mentioned, and the other one is that the “universe began to exist”. Before anyone brings up the Big Bang, I want to point out that this theory does not state that the Universe started to exist then, it simply says that the current form of the Universe started then.
 
As a matter of fact, it commits two Bare Assertions. One is what you mantioned, and the other one is that the “universe began to exist”. Before anyone brings up the Big Bang, I want to point out that this theory does not state that the Universe started to exist then, it simply say that the current form of the Universe started then.
You pre-empted part of a post I was just about to submit - I’ll carry on regardless:

Another point here is: What exactly does “begin to exist” mean?

One could say that a computer began to exist when its parts were assembled. We can identify a causal chain here, so P1 “everything that begins to exist has a cause” holds true in this sense.
One could say that a person began to exist at some point between conception and birth. We can identify a biological process here, so P1 also holds true.

But fundamentally, both these things are actually ‘just’ the result of the rearrangement of pre-existing matter. So in fact, we can’t even use the a posteriori observations of our environment as examples, let alone extrapolate to the Universe as a whole.

The fact is, we’ve never observed anything begin to exist. We have no evidence that the phenomenon of “beginning to exist” is even real. So all of a sudden P1 starts to look very ropey (as if it didn’t already). It’s making a baseless assertion of causality for a phenomenon that may not even exist!

So in fact, given the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Universe as a whole is pretty much the first thing about which we can validly ask, “Did it begin to exist?” (P2). And the only real evidence pointing towards a “yes” to this question is Big Bang Theory. Which of course only posits the Universe beginning to exist in its current form - it says nothing about what may or may not have preceded the BB, either materially or causally.

So, in a nutshell, P1 vanishes in a puff of meaninglessness, and P2 is reduced to a bare assertion. RIP KCA.
 
No. These concepts, like contingency, causality, etc. are not esoteric, hard to understand ideas, as a matter of fact, they are very simple. The fallacies I see left and right are obvious. I reject that professional philosophers must be accepted at face value, just because they have a “name”. In science it does not matter, who says something. Name does not count. It only matters what that person says. When I see a philosopher writing sentences 5-10 lines long, filled with esoteric terminology, I throw the whole stuff away, since it is obvious that the writer has nothing to say, but wants to hide that fact. 🙂 Read argument #560 in: godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
Absolutely right.
Finally, I want to reiterate, that if the catholic church did have an actual, rational argument for God’s existence, it would be displayed in the cathecism, and touted on every available forum. Why is the church so “bashful” about it?
I wonder the same thing too. But to be fair, it was pointed out that the greek philosophers did some good work on the subject of God.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.
 
Dear God. I think you guys need to lay off the YouTube/Internet Infidels resources. Those objections are all quite weak. Those are objections, I think, that I heard way back in 2007. They’re no good. Have you people even heard him talk/read his reports/read his books?
 
I wonder the same thing too. But to be fair, it was pointed out that the greek philosophers did some good work on the subject of God.
It’s not what the Catechism is for. And the Church has no business articulating proofs - its job is to maintain and safeguard the deposit of the Faith, that’s it. Spock is just engaging in rhetoric. If you want rational proofs that prove God’s existence, Aquinas’ five ways succeed. Duns Scotus also succeeds. Read Feser for Aquinas. And Craig does a wonderful job with other arguments. He has a wealth of resources which answer these “objections.” Seriously, I remember going through these same “objections” four years ago, it’s just more banal internet infidels pap propounded by laymen atheists who do not read the other side, so to speak.
 
Dear God. I think you guys need to lay off the YouTube/Internet Infidels resources. Those objections are all quite weak. Those are objections, I think, that I heard way back in 2007. They’re no good. Have you people even heard him talk/read his reports/read his books?
Why would you expect new rebuttals, when there are no new arguments for God? For every “proof” for God’s existence n days old, there’s a robust rebuttal n-1 days old. I’ve seen this bleat quite a few times from theists - “Are you still repeating the same old arguments?” “Well, yes - why change what works?”

And what’s with the Internet Snobbery? Amateur and professional opinion, on both sides, is available on the internet. Why should I go and buy a bound book when I can get the exact same information for free? It’s not like amateur atheists only use the internet and wise, considered men of religious learning use only hard copy. The rebuttals to religious ‘proofs’ predate the internet, so there’s no good reason to reject internet resources - they generally reflect well-considered and robust rebuttals to theist arguments. This is another common complaint - “You’re just regurgitating a website!” “Yup - and so are you. Aquinas, WLC, Feser and so on are all available on the internet.” What’s sauce for the goose…

And if the internet was a source only of amateur atheistic opinion, one could reflect that the “proofs” for God are so weak that even amateurs can knock them down!

A quick scour of the net doesn’t reveal any obvious solutions to the problems I posted in #48 (let alone all the other objections in this thread), so perhaps you could enlighten us here? How does one define the set “Everything that begins to exist,” and how does one substantiate the statement “Everything that begins to exist has a cause?” Do the “things” that are the subset of “everything” take the form of base, particular matter, or of recognisable objects formed from such matter, or something else? Or doesn’t it matter (if not, why not?)

Tell me why these objections are weak!
 
Why would you expect new rebuttals, when there are no new arguments for God? For every “proof” for God’s existence n days old, there’s a robust rebuttal n-1 days old. I’ve seen this bleat quite a few times from theists - “Are you still repeating the same old arguments?” “Well, yes - why change what works?”
How do you know those rebuttals even work?

I have seen this from atheists “You cannot prove what does not exist.” Rightly so, but they seem to forget that we can prove what DOES exist. It has been done. As I believe though, the intellectual assent is not good enough for us. We can give irrefutable proofs up the wazoo and it will do almost nothing for most people. There is evidence but it is up to us to interpret that evidence. Truth is relative, right?
And if the internet was a source only of amateur atheistic opinion, one could reflect that the “proofs” for God are so weak that even amateurs can knock them down!
Same could be said about your demigods - Dawkins, Harris, Krauss, Nietzche, Hawking, Hitchens… They hide their writings with so much rhetoric that that in itself makes it believable. Amateur theists (not to mention their own atheist buddies) can knock them down easily. But that means nothing to you because you clearly disagree. You got to do better than to make an assertion and hope that someone believes you.

You forget the part where they THINK they knocked it down. You clearly have not done your own research. Asserting that these proofs are knocked down does not mean that they are. With that said, I think are “proofs” that cannot even be considered proofs. those are the ones that are knocked down. It is not too hard to refute something that refuted itself. You have to do better than to make assertions like this.

Reason, logic and rationale are your only weapons of theistic assault. Yet, you cannot even use them right. If you deny this, then I will disagree until you start using them correctly.
 
Finally, I want to reiterate, that if the catholic church did have an actual, rational argument for God’s existence, it would be displayed in the cathecism, and touted on every available forum. Why is the church so “bashful” about it?
The fact that the Church does not submit to your desires does not mean that it does not have one. So what if it is not displayed or on every available forum… You are acting like the Protestant who does not think something exists because they want it written down explicitly in the Bible.

There are actual, rational arguments out there. The fact that YOU or anybody else disagree with them does not mean that they are not rational. Nor does the fact that your atheist scholars calling them irrational make them irrational. There are rational arguments against the existence of God. The fact that I disagree with them or something does not mean they are irrational. That does not make them right. Nor does it make our arguments right. I am just saying to be fair. There are rational arguments out there for God’s existence. That is the truth.

In any case, the Catholic Church is not the “owner” of any such arguments. And the Cathecism is not for arguments. And who cares if they are not “touted” on forums? You would not agree with them anyway. What does it matter?
 
So in fact, given the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Universe as a whole is pretty much the first thing about which we can validly ask, “Did it begin to exist?” (P2). And the only real evidence pointing towards a “yes” to this question is Big Bang Theory. Which of course only posits the Universe beginning to exist in its current form - it says nothing about what may or may not have preceded the BB, either materially or causally.
Having researched this, I can say there are some flaws with this idea. First of all, the laws of thermodynamics started with time. If time started at the big bang, which at least one model suggests, then energy could be created up until 0.01*10^-n (n being the smallest measurable division of a second), including at the instant it happened.

And even if the Universe were in some alternative (energy based?) state, that still leaves the problem of what caused it to change states, especially, given our knowledge of the big bang, the (seemingly) random time it did so.

Doesn’t entropy contradict the idea that the Universe was eternally in another state while subject to the laws of thermodynamics prior to the BB? Wouldn’t, then, entropy be at its max and we not be having this discussion?
 
It’s not what the Catechism is for. And the Church has no business articulating proofs - its job is to maintain and safeguard the deposit of the Faith, that’s it. Spock is just engaging in rhetoric. If you want rational proofs that prove God’s existence, Aquinas’ five ways succeed. Duns Scotus also succeeds. Read Feser for Aquinas. And Craig does a wonderful job with other arguments. He has a wealth of resources which answer these “objections.” Seriously, I remember going through these same “objections” four years ago, it’s just more banal internet infidels pap propounded by laymen atheists who do not read the other side, so to speak.
The philosophical proofs for God that I was interested in were ones that did not come from Christian theologians or people influenced by divine revelation namely Christians. They already know what goalposts to shoot for.

The ancient Greeks that did philosophy of God independent of Christian revelation were some of the philosophers that I was informed about by someone on CAF.

As for the Catechism, it states that God can be known up to a point from human reason alone, so why doesn’t it reference a few reasons developed from reason alone? Or better yet does that Catholic Church have any offical proofs for God from reason alone at all? I have the feeling that the proofs that we utilize are all benefiting from Christian revelation.

Regardless I’ll check out the different authors that you mentioned.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.
 
As for the Catechism, it states that God can be known up to a point from human reason alone, so why doesn’t it reference a few reasons developed from reason alone? Or better yet does that Catholic Church have any offical proofs for God from reason alone at all?
I just answered these questions!
 
Amateur and professional opinion, on both sides, is available on the internet. Why should I go and buy a bound book when I can get the exact same information for free?
Ah, so I was correct.

My man, it is time to get off the internet. It is, with rare exceptions, an intellectual wasteland. Do you really think YouTube or, lol, Godless Geeks or what have you are worthwhile resources for such pursuits? It is time to get professional, published content from both sides. When you do, I promise that you will be just as dismissive as the garbage of net atheists as I am. You don’t raise atomist objections (i.e., “but nothing has even been observed to begin to exist because the organizations of matter that we consist of have always existed”) to Craig’s version of the Kalam without having read his books, which cover them.

I can sympathize, though, if cash is short. If you really want to put your arguments (and ours) to the test w/o having to spend the cash, you can start by visiting professional blogs like Feser’s. Strike up a conversation with the commenters, most of whom are PhD’s. CAF is good for general questions to get us started, but to really get down to the nitty gritty, it’s these kind of people you want to get to know better.
 
I hope the defence isn’t as lightweight as that! Simply claiming that the “nature” of causation is akin to that of colour is an arbitrary claim. Why is it like colour? You need to define your evaluation criteria - it’s not enough to say, “why should putting them together suddenly mean they are un-caused?” - that just adds a new fallacy. With Lego bricks, we can devise an experiment to test the nature of the composite. What’s your equivalent experiment for the Universe?

If this really is Feser’s defence (I haven’t read him, although I’ll have a look on the web), then the atheist rebuttals of the KCA are untroubled.
That there is not always a fallacy in compositional arguments is obviously valid. What is being ignored is that people - who really do not know the conditions required for the fallacy - are falsely associating the compositional fallacy with the first cause argument. This is usually because they don’t understand the fallacy, or because they think that all valid arguments must stem purely from scientific observations; and if that were true, then they would have a rational basis for their argument. But it is not true that I cannot know certain things without science. I know that a square triangle cannot exist. I do not need science to tell me that this is true; no rational person does. Attempts to conjure up a basis to doubt certain knowledge outside of science is always based on a false understanding of Science and reason. Such doubts are not based in rationality itself but rather false irrational hypocritical interpretations and a misunderstanding of the epistemological limits of what science can say about things. One or two Christian theists on this thread have also failed to understand the fundamental nature of Aquinas’ argument; that his argument was ontological rather than “scientific”. That is not to say that one doesn’t use observations as part of the argument, as this is necessary; but it is not the core premise of what justifies the arguments success.
  1. Out of nothing comes nothing. This is always true and cannot possibly be otherwise; just like a triangle cannot be a square.
  2. Every change is the actualisation of the potentiality for change; otherwise it must be said that ultimately “change” came out of absolutely nothing.
  3. Potentiality by itself is not to be thought of as an ontological being or an action, and therefore must be accounted for by something that is not itself potential, but is instead “purely actual” with with no beginning or change in it.
Change must have a cause, not because we observe that things have a cause, but rather because change is fundamentally an actualisation of “potential events”, and this is evident because change by definition is the motion between two ontological points; one point is actual, and the other point is potentially real. The point from which change proceeds from, cannot itself be changing, otherwise that point too would be preceded by that which was initially only potential points of reality. If we do not stop at a being that is a pure unchanging timeless reality, we will end up with an infinite regress of events that were at one point only potential. If we do not account for that potentiality, we end up with the irrational belief that the world proceeded out of nothing, because none of the events in an infinite regress explain the existence of “actual reality”; given fact that every event in the chain was at one point only potential events. An infinite regress, by itself, cannot fulfil the question of why there something rather than nothing.

The belief that something came from nothing by itself is more irrational than a flying spaghetti monster, simply because its is anti-rationality and thus anti-knowledge/anti truth; since we would not be able to admit true knowledge of anything given that everything would be qualitatively no different in nature to absolutely nothing. This is made clearer by the fact that as soon as an honest person admits that there is obviously a fundamental and intrinsic distinction between the two, they are also admitting indirectly that nothing is not intrinsically a being and thus cannot be attributed any objective possibilities/potentialities/powers or anything that would suggest more than absolutely nothing, because nothing is the absolute opposite of these things. “Nothing” therefore can never have the nature of a being of its own accord, and therefore we can never speak of something coming from nothing, since that would involve *nothing *becoming more than what it is by definition. From that, and the mere possibility of true distinctions (A man is not a mouse; a tree is not air, etc…) . ", one is necessarily admitting that the law of non-contradiction is objective insofar as it applies to general actuality as opposed to non-actuality. These facts are made evident by the fact of existence itself; long before science is necessary. It is from this basis that we can make true statements about reality, such as "a square-triangle cannot exist. From that basis you have the grounds for true knowledge which is necessary for honest science and philosophy.
.
 
I just answered these questions!
Oh sorry I re-read your post. Ok so I guess I will have to accept the fact that proofs are beyond the scope of what the Catechism is for.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.
 
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