Evidence for Design?

[LittleSoldier]

“Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the more often and steadily we reflect upon them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.” Kant - Critique of Practical Reason (1788)

These words inscribed on Kant’s tombstone are evidence of his appreciation of the beauty in nature which has always been considered to be outstanding evidence of Design. Attempts to explain it in terms of survival value overlook the fact that intricate patterns on objects like sea shells cannot be explained in terms of utility or natural selection. There are also objective principles - and even mathematical facts like the Golden Ratio - which determine whether something is beautiful or ugly. If there is no symmetry and proportion in a face, for example, it cannot be aesthetically pleasing and valuable. There are other factors such as colour, texture and contrast but all beauty seems to depends on some form of harmony: a basic unity and fittingness which are revealed in the relation of the parts to the whole.

Some people find beauty in things which repulse others. “Beauty” is subjective and cannot be defined by laws. Also, I am requesting evidence to back up your assertion that the intricate patterns on seashells cannot be explained in terms of utility or natural selection (please remember there is a ban on discussing evolution).

This exquisite harmony gives the impression that it does not exist by accident. The mechanistic explanation of beauty does not do justice to the facts because the concepts of value and purpose are interdependent. Something that is purposeful must be valuable and something that is valuable must be purposeful - at the very least in the mind of the person who appreciates it. It is a source of joy and inspiration like the night sky or one of the other wonders in the universe. The beauty of nature is evidence of creative power on an unparallelled scale. That is why it is a powerful argument for rational Design.

The above is simply an opinion. The night sky may be a source of revulsion for some - for example, someone who is not able to tolerate sunlight and finds himself in a prison of night.

 

[LittleSoldier]

That is the very point I am making! Laws of nature are not responsible but they cause suffering - which is irrefutable evidence of their limitations. That is precisely why they cannot cater for every contingency and are supplemented by divine intervention. God is not a passive observer but a dynamic loving Father.

Physical evil is the inevitable consequence of mindless laws, i.e. regularities which are the basis of life. It is absurd to expect them to take into account all the different circumstances in which persons and animals find themselves.** Sooner or later some individuals must come to grief through no defect or fault in the system**.

How can a morally neutral object *cause *suffering?

 

[tonyrey]

I agree except that I would say that perhaps God intentionally caused the Japanese tsunami and the earthquake in Haiti.

Only a diabolical monster would deliberately cause all that horrific carnage and suffering…

I think you’re right about suffering being absolutely central to Christ’s message. Look how He suffered! And yet He was so blessed!

Suffering is indeed central and inevitable but it remains an evil that needs to be prevented, alleviated or transformed into a source of joy and fulfilment as Jesus did.

Although it doesn’t happen on this world (at least not normally) we suffer in Purgatory and that is definitely good as it purges us of our imperfections so that we can live with and glorify God forever in heaven. Only the perfect can enter heaven; without Purgatory and the suffering it contains where would we be?

You are right!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Only a diabolical monster would deliberately cause all that horrific carnage and suffering…

Then either God is a diabolical monster or is privy to information we don’t have. I vote for the second.

Wouldn’t only a diabolical monster allow the ocean to cover all those Egyptian soldiers who were only doing their jobs? Didn’t they have wives and children who loved them? Didn’t they have people who depended on them? Yet God DROWNED them! How cruel God can be?

And what about Noah and the flood? Evidently God again DROWNED a large number of people, including babies and young children. Also, God allowed an evil ruler to MURDER little children (the Holy Innocents). Wouldn’t only a diabolical monster allow that? God allowed it, didn’t He? WHY?

I’m sure we would agree that God loves us. So why would He allow so many to suffer so much? What about the people who live in the dumps in India? Those dumps fill up with gasses until they eventually explode, killing the people who live there and then new people move in. To live in dumps.

Poverty is horrendous. Why would God allow little kids to be so hungry that an observer can count their bones just by looking and their stomachs protrude and they are covered with flies and don’t have the strength to even whisk them away and their eyes and lips are encrusted? They have no clean water and they have worms living in their legs and all they do is suffer. Why would God allow this? Those little kids DIE, never knowing anything other than misery.

Please tell me why God would allow such horrible suffering.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Why does God let me suffer so much?

I know the answer. It’s because He loves me.

 

[grannymh]

Why does God let me suffer so much?

I know the answer. It’s because He loves me.

Not only does God love you, but He also loves those around you and those you reach via CAF. Many of us are weak when it comes to temptations. When you do not give up when suffering, we borrow some of your strength. When you see God as worth the worse which can happen, we also see God as worth our own sacrifices.

Through suffering, we come to a tiny understanding of what Jesus did for us. And we love Jesus all the more. If Jesus could suffer so, then eternal life with God must be unbelievably happy. Every drop of blood that fell to the ground was because Jesus wanted us to be with Him eternally.

Satan, evil, and suffering entered the world as a result of Adam’s prideful disobedience. When this happened, God did not abandon us. God consoles us with the hope that we too can conquer death as Christ did when He rose from the dead. If we cannot avoid suffering in this world, we know that Christ will bend down from His cross of suffering and give us His hand.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[tonyrey]

Only a diabolical monster would deliberately cause all that horrific carnage and suffering…

Belief in Yahweh is incompatible with belief in the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

Also, God allowed an evil ruler to MURDER little children (the Holy Innocents). Wouldn’t only a diabolical monster allow that? God allowed it, didn’t He? WHY?

Moral evil is permitted by God because without free will a person is incapable of love.

I’m sure we would agree that God loves us. So why would He allow so many to suffer so much? What about the people who live in the dumps in India? Those dumps fill up with gasses until they eventually explode, killing the people who live there and then new people move in. To live in dumps.

Poverty is horrendous. Why would God allow little kids to be so hungry that an observer can count their bones just by looking and their stomachs protrude and they are covered with flies and don’t have the strength to even whisk them away and their eyes and lips are encrusted? They have no clean water and they have worms living in their legs and all they do is suffer. Why would God allow this? Those little kids DIE, never knowing anything other than misery.

Please tell me why God would allow such horrible suffering.

For several reasons:

1. He has given us free will without which we would be incapable of love, moral responsibility and self-determination.
2. Much of the suffering in the world is caused by man’s abuse of free will and lack of love for others.
3. If God prevented most of the suffering in the world it would defeat the purpose of giving us free will and being able to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love.

 

[tonyrey]

Not only does God love you, but He also loves those around you and those you reach via CAF. Many of us are weak when it comes to temptations. When you do not give up when suffering, we borrow some of your strength. When you see God as worth the worse which can happen, we also see God as worth our own sacrifices.

Through suffering, we come to a tiny understanding of what Jesus did for us. And we love Jesus all the more. If Jesus could suffer so, then eternal life with God must be unbelievably happy. Every drop of blood that fell to the ground was because Jesus wanted us to be with Him eternally.

Satan, evil, and suffering entered the world as a result of Adam’s prideful disobedience. When this happened, God did not abandon us. God consoles us with the hope that we too can conquer death as Christ did when He rose from the dead. If we cannot avoid suffering in this world, we know that Christ will bend down from His cross of suffering and give us His hand.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

A superb explanation of God’s love for us!

 

[tonyrey]

Why does God let me suffer so much?

I know the answer. It’s because He loves me.

All the saints have suffered more than others because their love and suffering have brought them closer to their Master. The more we love the more we suffer because we share the suffering of Our Lord and the suffering of others. His love and our capacity for unselfish love are the greatest evidence for Design…

 

[grannymh]

Note: I made an error and am reposting my answer to LittleSoldier.

Why does God let me suffer so much?

I know the answer. It’s because He loves me.

Not only does God love you, but He also loves those around you and those you reach via CAF. Many of us are weak when it comes to temptations. When you do not give up when suffering, we borrow some of your strength. When you see God as worth the worse which can happen, we also see God as worth our own sacrifices.

Through suffering, we come to a tiny understanding of what Jesus did for us. And we love Jesus all the more. If Jesus could suffer so, then eternal life with God must be unbelievably happy. Every drop of blood that fell to the ground was because Jesus wanted us to be with Him eternally.

Satan, evil, and suffering entered the world as a result of Adam’s prideful disobedience. When this happened, God did not abandon us. God consoles us with the hope that we too can conquer death as Christ did when He rose from the dead. If we cannot avoid suffering in this world, we know that Christ will bend down from His cross of suffering and give us His hand.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[LittleSoldier]

Note: I made an error and am reposting my answer to LittleSoldier.

Not only does God love you, but He also loves those around you and those you reach via CAF. Many of us are weak when it comes to temptations. When you do not give up when suffering, we borrow some of your strength. When you see God as worth the worse which can happen, we also see God as worth our own sacrifices.

Through suffering, we come to a tiny understanding of what Jesus did for us. And we love Jesus all the more. If Jesus could suffer so, then eternal life with God must be unbelievably happy. Every drop of blood that fell to the ground was because Jesus wanted us to be with Him eternally.

Satan, evil, and suffering entered the world as a result of Adam’s prideful disobedience. When this happened, God did not abandon us. God consoles us with the hope that we too can conquer death as Christ did when He rose from the dead. If we cannot avoid suffering in this world, we know that Christ will bend down from His cross of suffering and give us His hand.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

Wait a minute. Please excuse my normal addle-headedness but this post showed up as already responded to before it was written. Now in my book that is just plain w.e.i.r.d.

How did that happen?

OOOHHHH! I see! Sorry; I’ve been staring at my computer screen for hours (finding out that my ex-psychiatrist lost his license :extrahappy::dancing: :clapping: :yup and I think I need to take a break.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Belief in Yahweh is incompatible with belief in the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

Moral evil is permitted by God because without free will a person is incapable of love.

For several reasons:

1. He has given us free will without which we would be incapable of love, moral responsibility and self-determination.
2. Much of the suffering in the world is caused by man’s abuse of free will and lack of love for others.
3. If God prevented most of the suffering in the world it would defeat the purpose of giving us free will and being able to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love.

Then why did you say that only a diabolical monster would allow such suffering to occur? I don’t understand what you are trying to say. It seems like you’re wobbling back and forth. If God can prevent the suffering in the world and doesn’t then He is causing it, isn’t He? Doesn’t that make Him a diabolical monster?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Note: I made an error and am reposting my answer to LittleSoldier.

Not only does God love you, but He also loves those around you and those you reach via CAF. Many of us are weak when it comes to temptations. When you do not give up when suffering, we borrow some of your strength. When you see God as worth the worse which can happen, we also see God as worth our own sacrifices.

Through suffering, we come to a tiny understanding of what Jesus did for us. And we love Jesus all the more. If Jesus could suffer so, then eternal life with God must be unbelievably happy. Every drop of blood that fell to the ground was because Jesus wanted us to be with Him eternally.

Satan, evil, and suffering entered the world as a result of Adam’s prideful disobedience. When this happened, God did not abandon us. God consoles us with the hope that we too can conquer death as Christ did when He rose from the dead. If we cannot avoid suffering in this world, we know that Christ will bend down from His cross of suffering and give us His hand.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

But, you know what? I don’t want to suffer! I don’t want to drink from this cup that is being forced on me! I’ve thought of taking my life and I don’t even understand why what I tried to do didn’t work. I was on the freeway and a semi started to pull into my lane and I didn’t even honk my horn. I didn’t even brake. I WANTED that semi to hit me or at least I didn’t care if it did. I closed my eyes and when I opened them it was gone and that is impossible! There was no place for it to go or for me to go. It had to hit me and it didn’t. And the suffering just went on.

I didn’t ask for this gift. I don’t want it. I want God to take it away from me or at least let me dream that I can run because I can’t even do that in my dreams anymore. I carry my disabilities with me wherever I go. I don’t mean to be complaining. I just want a break from the suffering; like a week’s vacation when I can act like a regular person and ride a horse or go to Disneyland and not have to leave most of the rides because of those signs they have that say that people with back injuries can’t ride them. I want to dance and run. Just for a week. And I can’t even dream that I can.

Or else I want to understand why I have to have such an awful, rotten life with everyone I love dying on me and my “friend” stealing my medicine and my CD player and then dumping me and my neighbor using the “F” word all day long but being so popular with the neighbors who all seem to dislike me because I can’t keep my gardening done very well BECAUSE I’M IN PAIN and my house is getting dumpy because I live on disability and I can’t afford to keep it in good repair. They LAUGH at me!! I’m the neighborhood eccentric because I pray the Rosary out loud because it drowns out that “F” word coming from next door and then he laughs at me, too.

I’m really, really tired of this and I wish I could just curl up in bed and d.i.e.

I apologize for my rant. I am really very, very tired of the pain. I’m sorry, God. I’m sorry, everyone.

I didn’t ask for this. I had plans for my life and I did want to help people. I really did. Now I see my niece being offered Ph.D. fellowships from MIT, Stanford, Cal, and Michigan and she doesn’t even have her B.S. yet, and I wonder why I couldn’t have a life like that - why I’m the one that failed. I have a cousin who is almost exactly my age and her Mom put her in a race with me. I lost. She’s married, makes a ton of money and has two sons. I’m widowed, poor, lost two babies before birth, and God knows where my son is or if he is even alive.

If God has given me a gift I am not using it like I should be. I’m not helping other people. I *am *giving up because I don’t know what else to do.

 

[razredge]

You need to explain why God **can’t **intervene at all. If He can work some miracles surely He can work others.

I’m not saying God can’t intervene, I’m He saying he chooses not to for some good reason

That is going to extremes! God does everything possible and there is abundant evidence that He works miracles.

.There’s no proof for that at all, most reasonable people looking at the evidence would conclude that God doesn’t do anything rather than do everything possible to intervene.

If God does not intervene whenever He can He cannot be both loving and omnipotent.

How so? Maybe the good accomplished by Him not intervening is greater than the good accomplished if He chose to intervene.

A Christian believes there is no unnecessary suffering. Why would God permit it?

Why does a Christian have to believe that?

 

[tonyrey]

*You need to explain why God **can’t ***

That wouldn’t convince anyone who is searching for an explanation.
:

That is going to extremes! God does everything possible

and there is abundant evidence that He works miracles.
.There’s no proof for that at all, most reasonable people looking at the evidence would conclude that God doesn’t do anything rather than do everything possible to intervene.

1. There is abundant evidence that miracles occur.
2. The vast majority of people and animals are not killed by an accident or a natural disaster.

If God does not intervene whenever He can

He cannot be both loving and omnipotent.
How so? Maybe the good accomplished by Him not intervening is greater than the good accomplished if He chose to intervene.

That wouldn’t convince anyone who is searching for an explanation.

A Christian believes there is no

unnecessary suffering. Why would God permit it?
Why does a Christian have to believe that?

Jesus told us that God is a loving Father who answers prayers and cares for all His children…

 

[tonyrey]

*Belief in Yahweh is incompatible with belief in the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

1. God does not cause any form of evil.
2. Suffering has natural causes which are essential for life and survival.
3. Much of the suffering in the world is caused by man’s abuse of free will and lack of love for others…

 

[tonyrey]

But, you know what? I don’t want to suffer! I don’t want to drink from this cup that is being forced on me! I’ve thought of taking my life and I don’t even understand why what I tried to do didn’t work. I was on the freeway and a semi started to pull into my lane and I didn’t even honk my horn. I didn’t even brake. I WANTED that semi to hit me or at least I didn’t care if it did. I closed my eyes and when I opened them it was gone and that is impossible! There was no place for it to go or for me to go. It had to hit me and it didn’t. And the suffering just went on.

I didn’t ask for this gift. I don’t want it. I want God to take it away from me or at least let me dream that I can run because I can’t even do that in my dreams anymore. I carry my disabilities with me wherever I go. I don’t mean to be complaining. I just want a break from the suffering; like a week’s vacation when I can act like a regular person and ride a horse or go to Disneyland and not have to leave most of the rides because of those signs they have that say that people with back injuries can’t ride them. I want to dance and run. Just for a week. And I can’t even dream that I can.

Or else I want to understand why I have to have such an awful, rotten life with everyone I love dying on me and my “friend” stealing my medicine and my CD player and then dumping me and my neighbor using the “F” word all day long but being so popular with the neighbors who all seem to dislike me because I can’t keep my gardening done very well BECAUSE I’M IN PAIN and my house is getting dumpy because I live on disability and I can’t afford to keep it in good repair. They LAUGH at me!! I’m the neighborhood eccentric because I pray the Rosary out loud because it drowns out that “F” word coming from next door and then he laughs at me, too.

I’m really, really tired of this and I wish I could just curl up in bed and d.i.e.

I apologize for my rant. I am really very, very tired of the pain. I’m sorry, God. I’m sorry, everyone.

I didn’t ask for this. I had plans for my life and I did want to help people. I really did. Now I see my niece being offered Ph.D. fellowships from MIT, Stanford, Cal, and Michigan and she doesn’t even have her B.S. yet, and I wonder why I couldn’t have a life like that - why I’m the one that failed. I have a cousin who is almost exactly my age and her Mom put her in a race with me. I lost. She’s married, makes a ton of money and has two sons. I’m widowed, poor, lost two babies before birth, and God knows where my son is or if he is even alive.

If God has given me a gift I am not using it like I should be. I’m not helping other people. I *am *giving up because I don’t know what else to do.

I sympathise with you very deeply. I have experienced severe pain and I know it is enough to drive you out of your mind and wish you were dead. Life seems very black especially when others don’t care what happens to you, are successful and apparently having a wonderful time but sooner or later** all of us** are all confronted with pain, suffering and death.

That is why Our Lord chose to let Himself be mocked, scourged, tortured, jeered at and crucified unjustly. He identifies Himself with all who are victims of evil so that we can identify ourselves and be united with Him. Pascal said Jesus is in agony until the end of the world. The martyrs and saints have endured extreme physical suffering and mental anguish without the drugs we have but their faith, courage, prayers, support for one another and love for their Master have enabled them to follow His example and say “Thy Will be done” and “Into Your hands I commend my spirit”…

We are never alone and abandoned by God…

 

[grannymh]

Wait a minute. Please excuse my normal addle-headedness but this post showed up as already responded to before it was written. Now in my book that is just plain w.e.i.r.d.

How did that happen?

OOOHHHH! I see! Sorry; I’ve been staring at my computer screen for hours (finding out that my ex-psychiatrist lost his license :extrahappy::dancing: :clapping: :yup and I think I need to take a break.

I have been having a problem with my computer and working on the internet. So I put my writing in Word so I have a copy in case everything freezes. This time I ended up deleting my original post because of a time problem which is why it disappeared. However, someone had already responded to the original post. I still had to repost so I did. It was a crazy set of cricumstances which I hope won’t happen again.

 

[tonyrey]

That is why Our Lord chose to let Himself be mocked, scourged, tortured, jeered at and crucified unjustly. He identifies Himself with all who are victims of evil so that we can identify ourselves and be united with Him. Pascal said Jesus is in agony until the end of the world…

By “victims of evil” I mean victims of physical as well as moral evil. Life is a struggle for survival from the moment of birth to the moment of death. In our man-made environment we tend to forget all the dangers to which we are exposed in our natural state. Even within our bodies there is constant warfare between invaders and defenders. Conflict is at the very core of physical existence. And we are all defeated in the end by death - as far as nature is concerned.

Could this grim system be designed by a loving Father? I believe it is because we cannot have everything for nothing: there is a price to pay for pleasure and satisfaction. Every advantage has a corresponding advantage. The more sensitive we are the more we enjoy ourselves but also the more we suffer. The less dangerous life is the less challenging it becomes. There has to be an element of risk if we are to develop and demonstrate what we can achieve. We admire men and women who have overcome adversity and revealed nobility of spirit. It is not the rich in history who are remembered and admired but individuals like Jesus and Gandhi who have inspired us with their faith and courage - and a young woman who suffered and died at the age of twenty-four in 1997 leaving nothing but what she had written…

 

[grannymh]

Then why did you say that only a diabolical monster would allow such suffering to occur? I don’t understand what you are trying to say. It seems like you’re wobbling back and forth. If God can prevent the suffering in the world and doesn’t then He is causing it, isn’t He? Doesn’t that make Him a diabolical monster?

In my humble opinion, many of the comments on this thread regarding suffering are wobbling this way and that way. That can happen when people are trying to understand everything about life. We do not have the same level of knowledge as God. So we should stop trying to be like a “god” in understanding everything. This does not, I repeat does not, imply that we should give up trying to understand life. We are able to understand what is important about life which is the eventual union with our Creator.

Even in pain, we seek answers. This is natural. My mother had a variety of health issues, one after another. She attended daily Mass when she could. She was a good example of Catholic living. One time, a friend chided her for all her praying because apparently God wasn’t answering. My mother declared firmly that God did answer her prayers. God’s answer was “No, not now.”

I doubt if my mother happily accepted God’s “answer”. But she did accept her condition as part of God’s future plans for her. She did not stop talking to God or doing the little things she could do to help the parish. I know she had doubts, but even doubts can be a form of prayer. At her death, I like to think that she told God that unworthy as she considered herself, she still would like to be with Him eventually. I am sure that God did answer that request. His answer was “Yes, the time to be with Me in loving peace is now.”