Evidence for Design?

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Tony, I don’t understand your position so I’m going to state what I think it is and then I hope you correct me where I am wrong. I’m putting my beliefs in red after yours. hope this is OK with you:
You are very welcome. I have specialised in this subject for many years and am delighted to discuss it. 🙂
(1) You believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. I agree.
(2) You believe that God *always *intervenes when humans are suffering and He does so in order to alleviate their suffering (because He loves us). I have a problem with this. As humans we don’t know what real suffering is and we don’t know if the suffering we undergo could actually be less suffering than what would happen if God stopped our present suffering. For example, if I am in a car accident and am in absolute agony it might be better for me to be in that absolute agony than to have been knocked unconscious and killed in that accident while I had a mortal sin on my soul and would therefore be damned to hell. God’s allowing or causing my present suffering could be looked upon as an act of love.
I agree. We cannot possibly always know when or why God intervenes but to think that He **very rarely **intervenes is inconsistent with the belief that He is a loving Father who does His utmost to care for us.
(3) Natural law is not under God’s direct control - or - Natural law is not under God’s control at all. All natural law is always under God’s control. That is one reason He is omnipotent. The only things God cannot do are those which go against His nature. No natural law goes against God’s naturel
I agree but the things that act according to natural law are not under God’s** direct** control.
(4) Jesus is and will be in agony until the end of the world (which is the Second Coming?) because He identifies with us and we are suffering. I don’t even know what to say here. I am requesting official Church teaching,
It is a famous quotation from the staunch Catholic philosopher and scientist Blaise Pascal.
(5) I’m sure there is more but I’m getting a headache. Yep, I’m getting a headache but it’s not your fault.
I’m sorry but this is a complex, specialised subject that cannot be fully understood without a considerable amount of study, thought and discussion.
 
I don’t know: I specified “in my view”.
Do you believe only that which is taught by the Church or do you have some personal opinions of your own?
First, a prayer is in order: God, this is one of those posts that is a nightmare when I try to respond. Just the way it’s set up is so complicated that I don’t think I will be able to use the QUOTE (or any other) function properly. Please help me with this. Thank You. Amen.

OK. Here goes. You did use the words “in my view” but your description of your view is difficult to understand. There aren’t levels of omnipotence. If God is omnipotent He is omnipotent.

I believe what is taught by the Church. I also have personal opinions. But I’m not going to get too deeply into semantics. I will rephrase my question:

Why do you believe He intervenes “on every possible occasion without revealing His Presence?” 😛
Did I state that they do?:confused:
So as far as you know there is no Church teaching on this?
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                                             They are rejected if miracles are thought to be very rare.
One miracle is enough to indicate acceptance. Just one.
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                                                 Do you know **how** many people were saved by God in that disaster and in all the other earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, avalanches and other cataclysms?
Nope. But I know a lot of people suffered and God allowed that suffering to happen and that makes Him a diabolical monster, according to what I think is your reasoning (I’m hoping I am confused about your reasoning).
God permits evil because it is a lesser evil than depriving us of our free will by compelling us to believe that He exists by working a miracle to protect **everyone **from injury or death from natural causes.
Please let me reword this as I am having a problem understanding it. God allows evil to occur because if He took away our free will we would be compelled to believe in Him and that is worse than saving **everyone **from suffering (injury or death) from natural causes. Do I have that right?
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                                                   What about all the "babies  and children so young that they couldn't possibly sin"?
What about them? :confused: They aren’t subject to natural law?
“some” is not “all”.
Yes - that is why I said that human beings (“some” of God’s creations) would probably need more.
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                                                  A false deduction. The world is controlled by God **through** **the laws of nature** He creates and suspends whenever He chooses.
What do you think direct control is? You said that God does not have direct control over the world. That puts a limit on His omnipotence. He always has direct control. The laws of nature are not mediators between God and His creations. God can use natural law to directly control the world.
The world is under the direct control of God when He works a miracle. Normally however He controls the world** through natural laws.**
Oh, OK. So when God performs a miracle it’s direct control but when whatever happens is because of laws of nature that God made and are under His jurisdiction, that is not direct control. :rolleyes:
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                                             For the reason I have given:
God permits evil because it is a lesser evil than depriving us of our free will by compelling us to believe that He exists by working a miracle to protect **everyone **from injury or death from natural causes.
I don’t want to try to reword this again. :eek:
Jesus said “Fear not those who kill the** body.**…”
If someone had a knife to my throat I would fear. Yes. Definitely. But if someone had a knife to the throat of any child, *he * should fear. Yes. Absolutely definitely be quaking in his shoes because he will soon be experiencing the wrath of a woman who has been created as a nurturer and who has carried little ones inside her and given birth to one of them. Those little bodies are very important. And this is why we need to do EVERYTHING we can possibly do to stop poverty and hunger among children. Those little bodies belong to God but they are put in our care and that is a very serious responsibility that too many are shirking right now.
Why doyou think God permitted "babies and children so young that they couldn’t possibly sin to drown?
How should I know? I’m not God and I’m certainly not omniscient or omnipotent (although I might be omnibenevolent - just kiddin’; I’m not that, either :().

Our bodies belong to God. Our *lives *belong to God. It is not my place to question why He takes the lives of children too young to sin. I trust in His love; that’s enough.

You use that phrase about not fearing those who kill the body a lot and it makes me wonder why. Our bodies are important, aren’t they? Catholics fight hard to stop the slaughter of the bodies of the unborn so they must be important. The Church doesn’t even know what happens to the souls of the unborn who die. But she teaches that abortion is an intrinsic evil. We have to protect those little bodies that are in so much danger. Babies and little children who can’t sin - their bodies are important, aren’t they? If they aren’t it would be acceptable and licit to kill them. And, as we all know, it’s not acceptable or licit. We may be souls but we are souls inhabiting bodies that belong to God and as they belong to God He may do with them as He will but we’d better be careful about messing with them. They are created in His image. What did Jesus say about children?

“See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.”
[Matthew 18:10, Douay-Rheims]
 
You are very welcome. I have specialised in this subject for many years and am delighted to discuss it. 🙂

I agree. We cannot possibly always know when or why God intervenes but to think that He **very rarely **intervenes is inconsistent with the belief that He is a loving Father who does His utmost to care for us.

I agree but the things that act according to natural law are not under God’s** direct** control.
Sure they are! God is the one who created those laws, isn’t He? Even when Mary or an angel appears the power and authority go directly back to God. God always has direct control of the world, whether through His natural law or His mother or Gabriel. That is one reason why Jesus’ Passion was so horribly painful. He could have stopped it at any time. It was far worse for Him than for a regular human being. He went through all that even though He didn’t want to and told His Father so (disclaimer: this is my opinion and may not represent Church teaching).
It is a famous quotation from the staunch Catholic philosopher and scientist Blaise Pascal.
Thank you. I’m going to disagree with Blaise here and the reason is that Jesus is omniscient and knows that at His Second Coming everything is going to be fine and every last farthing will be paid and all inequities will be equified* and all tears will be tears of joy and all the suffering that those who love God go through will stop and we will all be in heaven (I mean those who love God) and glorifying God for eternity. Perfect justice and absolute perfection and everyone gets what they want (disclaimer: this is my opinion and may not represent Church teaching).
I’m sorry but this is a complex, specialised subject that cannot be fully understood without a considerable amount of study, thought and discussion.
Are you referring to my headache? I agree! 😃

*Yes, I made this word up but I like it to I’m going to leave it. It should be a word, anyway, and I think its meaning is clear from the context.
 
Why do you believe He intervenes “on every possible occasion without revealing His Presence?”
If God constantly worked miracles everyone would be compelled to believe that a benevolent Power exists.
One miracle is enough to indicate acceptance. Just one.
The Church requires at least two miracles for every saint and there are many saints as well as many other well documented miracles…
Do you know how many people were saved by God in that disaster and in all the other earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, avalanches and other cataclysms?
Nope. But I know a lot of people suffered and God allowed that suffering to happen and that makes Him a diabolical monster, according to what I think is your reasoning (I’m hoping I am confused about your reasoning).

Why do you think God permits suffering?
God permits evil because it is a lesser evil than depriving us of our free will by compelling us to believe that He exists by working a miracle to protect everyone from injury or death from natural causes.
Please let me reword this as I am having a problem understanding it. God allows evil to occur because if He took away our free will we would be compelled to believe in Him and that is worse than saving everyone from suffering (injury or death) from natural causes. Do I have that right?

Correct. Without free will we would be zombies incapable of love or moral responsibility.
What about all the “babies and children so young that they couldn’t possibly sin”?
What about them? They aren’t subject to natural law?
It is evidence that natural laws cannot ensure human happiness and development.
The world is controlled by God through the laws of nature He creates and suspends whenever He chooses.
What do you think direct control is? You said that God does not have direct control over the world. That puts a limit on His omnipotence.

God restricts His omnipotence when He gives us the power to disobey Him and reject Him for all eternity. He also restricts His omnipotence by creating a universe that he does not control by divine fiats for every event - like determining the precise movement of every atom.
He always has direct control. The laws of nature are not mediators between God and His creations. God can use natural law to directly control the world.
He can but He doesn’t! What is the point of creating laws, i.e. regularities, if He is going to override them constantly?
The world is under the direct control of God when He works a miracle. Normally however He controls the world through natural laws.
Oh, OK. So when God performs a miracle it’s direct control but when whatever happens is because of laws of nature that God made and are under His jurisdiction, that is not direct control.

Correct.
Jesus said “Fear not those who kill the body…”
If someone had a knife to my throat I would fear. Yes. Definitely. But if someone had a knife to the throat of any child, he should fear. Yes. Absolutely definitely be quaking in his shoes because he will soon be experiencing the wrath of a woman who has been created as a nurturer and who has carried little ones inside her and given birth to one of them. Those little bodies are very important. And this is why we need to do EVERYTHING we can possibly do to stop poverty and hunger among children. Those little bodies belong to God but they are put in our care and that is a very serious responsibility that too many are shirking right now.

God knows we are going to be afraid but He also knows we have the power to overcome our fear and trust in His power to deliver us from evil after we die.
Why do you think God permitted "babies and children so young that they couldn’t possibly sin to drown?
How should I know? I’m not God and I’m certainly not omniscient or omnipotent (although I might be omnibenevolent - just kiddin’; I’m not that, either ).

If you have no explanation then it is unreasonable to reject another one unless you can explain why it is incorrect.
Our bodies belong to God. Our lives belong to God. It is not my place to question why He takes the lives of children too young to sin.
God doesn’t take any life. He allows everyone to die because death is inevitable - although deaths caused by persons unnecessarily are against God’s Will.
I trust in His love; that’s enough.
It is enough for you and me but it is not enough when you have to explain it to a sceptic.
You use that phrase about not fearing those who kill the body a lot and it makes me wonder why. Our bodies are important, aren’t they? Catholics fight hard to stop the slaughter of the bodies of the unborn so they must be important. The Church doesn’t even know what happens to the souls of the unborn who die. But she teaches that abortion is an intrinsic evil. We have to protect those little bodies that are in so much danger. Babies and little children who can’t sin - their bodies are important, aren’t they? If they aren’t it would be acceptable and licit to kill them. And, as we all know, it’s not acceptable or licit. We may be souls but we are souls inhabiting bodies that belong to God and as they belong to God He may do with them as He will but we’d better be careful about messing with them. They are created in His image. What did Jesus say about children?
“See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.”
[Matthew 18:10, Douay-Rheims]
I entirely agree! 🙂
 
I agree but the things that act according to natural law are not under God’s* direct***
When an earthquake maims and kills thousands of people it is not** the **result of a direct decision by God. He knows it will occur **because of the laws He has created **but He also knows misfortunes are inevitable wherever there is an immensely complex physical system which is orderly and predictable. Even the sceptic David Hume admitted in his Dialogues concerning Natural Religion that this is the explanation of physical evil - and he would have seized upon any flaw in that reasoning.
It is a famous quotation from the staunch Catholic philosopher and scientist Blaise Pascal.
Thank you. I’m going to disagree with Blaise here and the reason is that Jesus is omniscient and knows that at His Second Coming everything is going to be fine and every last farthing will be paid and all inequities will be equified* and all tears will be tears of joy and all the suffering that those who love God go through will stop and we will all be in heaven (I mean those who love God) and glorifying God for eternity. Perfect justice and absolute perfection and everyone gets what they want (disclaimer: this is my opinion and may not represent Church teaching).

I agree with you but knowledge that suffering will come to an end does not prevent one from suffering when we know others are suffering. Compassion is not concerned with the future but what is happening now.
 
Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Anyway, I don’t view any of the listed points as a form of “evidence” for design. I choose design as a maxim, and then perform science from there. People get science backwards. You don’t start with pure science and then move forward. You start with a maxim, or some sort of underlying philosophy, and then you move on to science, and then you move forward. Why I choose design as a maxim need not be scientifically testable, and in fact is impossible to scientifically validate.

But I will say I am proud of my maxim as I become more focused in my studies of the molecular and atomic world. There are striking parallels between “nature” made structures, specifically proteins and metabolic machinery, and man-made creation. I have atheist friends and colleagues whose minds are blown out of the water when we observe how “smart” things without brains are. The chemistry that viruses operate on is absolutely phenomenal. I’ve never been ridiculed for believing in intelligent design in my multiple years in science, other than by liberal arts professors who have never spent a day in a laboratory. In fact, discussions like this never come up in real science. Just on Discovery channel or in books written by liberals.

On a personal note, just strolling through life helps me believe even more in a master architect. There is so much redundancy in structure in the universe, between silly little stupid things, like the branches of trees and the arteries in our arms, or the “legs” of a kinesin and the legs of a bipedal human. Surely an atheist can say, “Well of course, these things work, that’s why we see them.” And yeah, I can see it that way too. But I just chose to believe there’s something more out there, and besides, this isn’t a scientific issue. Why people try to substitute science for everything in life is absurd…
An excellent survey! Redundancy, i.e abundance, is a necessary safeguard in the natural world. Economy would sometimes lead to disaster… 🙂
 
Why doesn’t God, if he exists, give us at least this much evidence? I don’t have faith in any supernatural gods - that is because no supernatural entity has ever impressed its existence upon me, let alone its ability to take any interest in my affairs.

Nor, indeed, do I think love is a choice. Our emotional responses are not entirely under our conscious governance. I’m sure many people can point to times when they have loved “not wisely but too well”. But again, I think love is a matter of an external reality that impresses itself upon us and influences our internal states - and again, I have seen no reason, nor felt any compulsion, to love an entity that cannot even convince me of its existence.
I agree with you.

If there was specific evidence for the existence of God then it should be obvious to anyone and everyone, after all this is Almighty God, supposedly creator of everything, not a needle in a haystack.

But after 2,300 posts nothing obvious has emerged, nothing the slightest bit obvious. The thread itself is now empirical evidence that the presence of God in design and events is not at all obvious, implicitly acknowledged by all the attempts to construct logical arguments and appeal to subjective reasoning (whatever that may be), which wouldn’t be needed if it were the slightest bit obvious.

The fact is that faith in Christ is completely irrational, pure emotion, but apparently some find this embarrassing and need to dress it up.

Paul understood that faith itself is irrational, he even made a little joke: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities … have been clearly seen” 😃 (Romans 1). “Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? … Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified” (1 Corinthians 1). “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” (1 Cor 13).

In other words when it comes to things like faith and love, philosophy is bunk.

Faith in Christ starts and ends in emotion, not in chasing phantom logic. Perhaps the emotion felt when standing before a tomb of the Unknown Soldier would serve as another example, although the expression is very different: “They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them.” Most people wouldn’t want to rationalize that emotion, most would think it pointless to even try, so why some try to do it with their faith is a bit of a mystery.
 
Really, Inocente?

If there were no rational reasons to believe in God, I would have become an atheist a few years ago.

By the way, the vast majority of the +2300 posts here were spent on biological ID and weird claims about God’s intervention, not on actual evidence for design.
 
Really, Inocente?

If there were no rational reasons to believe in God, I would have become an atheist a few years ago.

By the way, the vast majority of the +2300 posts here were spent on biological ID and weird claims about God’s intervention, not on actual evidence for design.
Agreed on the stranger claims, but by all means regale me with the blindingly obvious design evidence, or if you prefer the blindingly obvious rational argument for the existence of God. Or alternatively the blindingly obvious reasons not to believe in God. Anything that would make a neutral agnostic sit up and take notice.

I think no one can, and atheist or theist, we only go for arguments which help us post-rationalize a choice we already made emotionally.
 
The mere fact of existence does not show there is Design. Some kinds of existence would point to randomness and lack of purpose. The universe could be chaotic and disorderly that life and rational thought would be impossible. Yet it is orderly and predictable, facts which require explanation.

Aquinas pointed out:

“When diverse things are coordinated the scheme depends on their directed unification, as the order of battle of a whole army hangs on the plan of the commander-in-chief. The arrangement of diverse things cannot be dictated their own private and divergent natures; of themselves they are diverse and exhibit no tendency to make a pattern. It follows that the order of many among themselves either a matter of chance or it must be resolved into one first planner who has a purpose in mind. What comes about always or in the great majority of cases is not the result of accident. Therefore the whole of this world has but one planner or governor.”

Hume rejected this argument with a question:

“And instead of admiring the order of natural beings may it not happen that, could we penetrate into the intimate nature of bodies we should clearly see why it was absolutely impossible there could ever admit of any other disposition?”

He goes on to say:

“But wherever matter is so arranged and adjusted as to continue in perpetual motion and yet preserve a constancy in the forms its situation must of necessity have all the same appearance of art and contrivance which we observe at present.”

In other words Hume is arguing that any orderly universe must have an appearance of design but he has not shown there need be “a constancy in the forms”. Even an orderly universe could be changing so rapidly that nothing is constant. He is postulating physical necessity for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

In addition, he assumes there is at least one mind capable of appreciating the appearance of design. And that mind, according to Hume’s interpretation of mental activity, would depend for its existence on regularity in nature! So his objection applies only to universes in which there is at least one mind and not to all possible universes. In other words he is begging the question…

Belief in design does not imply that regularities cannot come about by chance. It implies that the regularities in the universe **taken in conjunction with their results **cannot be adequately explained by the random movements of atomic particles. Even chance events are subject to laws. The Poisson distribution, for example, describes very beautifully the occurrence of isolated events in a continuum. Mathematical functions are based to a some extent on physical reality. It is therefore reasonable to believe there is a beneficent framework of statistical laws which enable many types of being to coexist in harmony.

The universe could conceivably be far simpler and far less complex than it is. The immense amount of coordination and subordination of events is evidence of Design when taken in conjunction with the existence of persons, moral truths, beauty and love. It is irrational to believe rationality has an irrational origin!
 
Agreed on the stranger claims, but by all means regale me with the blindingly obvious design evidence, or if you prefer the blindingly obvious rational argument for the existence of God. Or alternatively the blindingly obvious reasons not to believe in God. Anything that would make a neutral agnostic sit up and take notice.
There are no knock-out arguments. It comes down to the question which arguments are more reasonable, and I believe the theistic side wins here with the reasonable arguments that it has (biological ID is not one of them).

As for design evidence, you said yourself that you believe the laws of nature are designed. I think that, once understood, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is a strong one. Yet few people are sufficiently informed about it and really understand it, including theists here on CAF who are too easily impressed with objections that do not hold up under scrutiny once more closely investigated.

As you may be aware of, I have written an article on the cosmological fine-tuning argument:

home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/cosmological-arguments-god.htm

If you are interested in the argument, please read my article in its entirety, and do this carefully (a cursory reading will not suffice). I know, reading will take several hours, but I am confident that you will find it much more worth your while than the typical ID drivel. In my article I lay out cosmological fine-tuning in detail, and I answer all seemingly good objections against the design argument flowing forth from it, and also the most common bad ones. I am not interested in discussing objections here which I have already answered exhaustively and in detail in my article.

While I find other arguments for the existence of God compelling as well, the cosmological fine-tuning argument alone makes it virtually impossible for me to become an atheist – not now that I have understood it rather thoroughly.
I think no one can, and atheist or theist, we only go for arguments which help us post-rationalize a choice we already made emotionally.
I agree that both sides do a lot of rationalizing – both sides, also atheists, as you say. In that context, I have found that trying to discuss cosmological fine-tuning with atheists is usually (not always) just as hopeless and futile as trying to discuss evolution with creationists. Many atheists do not even allow for discussing the philosophical implications of cosmological fine-tuning, but stop much earlier: they deny that it is real at all – contra the leading atheist and agnostic cosmologists that take cosmological fine-tuning very seriously as an issue that needs to be addressed. It shows that many atheists are just as selective about accepting findings of science that do not support their wold view as are many theists – despite their self-professed ‘rationality’, ‘love for science’ and alleged ‘scientific world view’.
 
In his Dialogues concerning Natural Religion Hume points out that “if everything in the universe be conducted by general laws, and if animals be rendered susceptible of pain, it scarcely seems possible but some ill must arise in the various shocks of matter, and the various concurrence and opposition of general laws…”
gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1456362&pageno=51

In other words it is precisely because there are laws of nature that there is physical evil in the universe. They are essential for life but they also cause suffering and death:

“On the concurrence, then, of these four circumstances, does all or the
greatest part of natural evil depend. Were all living creatures incapable
of pain, or were the world administered by particular volitions, evil
never could have found access into the universe…”

By “particular volitions” Hume means divine fiats or direct commands by God instead of **general laws **which are blind and blundering in their inability to distinguish the different needs of individuals in different circumstances. They are like steamrollers which crush anything that happens to be in their path:

“Look round this universe. What an immense profusion of beings, animated
and organised, sensible and active! You admire this prodigious variety
and fecundity. But inspect a little more narrowly these living
existences, the only beings worth regarding. How hostile and destructive
to each other! How insufficient all of them for their own happiness! How
contemptible or odious to the spectator! The whole presents nothing but
the idea of a blind Nature, impregnated by a great vivifying principle,
and pouring forth from her lap, without discernment or parental care, her
maimed and abortive children!”

Hume’s view of nature here is clearly unbalanced when it is contrasted with his acknowledgement of the evidence for Design:

A purpose, an intention, a design, strikes everywhere the most careless, the most stupid thinker; and no man can be so hardened in absurd systems, as at all times to reject it… The same thing is observable in other parts of philosophy: And thus all the sciences almost lead us insensibly to acknowledge a first intelligent Author; and their authority is often so much the greater, as they do not directly profess that intention.”

The flaw in Hume’s view of the universe is his assumption that there is a preponderance of evil in nature - which is disproved by the fact that the vast majority of living beings are not diseased or deformed. There is conflict but there is also co-operation in nature. If harmony were not fundamental life would have become extinct rather than have survived for billions of years!
 
Between 1925-1980 Archbishop Fulton Sheen wrote seventy-three books. Perhaps the best of these was Peace of Soul (1949). In the chapter titled “Is God Hard to Find?” he remarks: “All that any animal wants is to have its immediate wants granted; this is never the case with man. Man is animated by an urge, and unquenchable desire to enlarge his vision and to know the ultimate meaning of things. If he were only an animal, he would never use symbols, for what are these but attempts to transcend the visible? No, he is a “metaphysical animal,” a being ever longing for answers to the last question. The natural tendency of the intellect toward truth and of the will toward love would alone signify that there is in man a natural desire for God…. As the stomach yearns for food and the eye for light and the ear for harmony, so the soul craves God…. Atheism is not the knowledge that God does not exist, but only the wish that He did not, in order that one could sin without reproach or exalt one’s ego without challenge. The pillars upon which atheism mounts are sensuality and pride. An atheist may be moral in the popular acceptance of the term, but he is not humble…. Yet ever since the days of Adam man has been hiding from God and saying, ‘God is hard to find.’ The truth is that in each heart, there is a secret garden which God made uniquely for Himself. That garden is locked like a safety-deposit vault: it has two keys. God has one key; hence the the soul cannot let in anyone else but God. The human heart has the other key; hence not even God can get in without man’s consent…. We pretend to look for our key, to have mislaid it, to have given up the search; but all the while it is in our hand, if we would only see it. The reason we are not happy as saints is because we do not wish to be saints.”

In my view the atheist has kept his key in his pocket, for the usual reasons. 😉
 
When an earthquake maims and kills thousands of people it is not** the **result of a direct decision by God. He knows it will occur **because of the laws He has created **but He also knows misfortunes are inevitable wherever there is an immensely complex physical system which is orderly and predictable. Even the sceptic David Hume admitted in his Dialogues concerning Natural Religion that this is the explanation of physical evil - and he would have seized upon any flaw in that reasoning.
I’ve come to the conclusion that we are entangled in a semantic morass. What does “direct” mean, anyway? You can mean it in one way and I in another. I understand that omniscience is not the same as causing whatever one knows will happen to happen. But God is also omnipotent and has direct control over the universe(s). Even if a physical system is immensely complex to us it certainly is not complex to an omniscient Being, especially the Being who created the whole physical system.

Hume, eh? OK, this is somewhat off topic but I have to share this. This is part of a conversation between Socrates and Hume, both after they have died (obviously):

Socrates: David Hume! Is that you?
Hume: I…I think so.
Socrates: You’re not certain?
Hume: I always was skeptical of that little word, “certain.”
Socrates: In fact, you were even skeptical of that other little word, “I.”
Hume: True. I denied the existence of a substantial self.
Socrates: Whom am I addressing, then? Or should I say "*Hume am I addressing? Is it at least a Humean being? A secular Humeanist, perhaps?
Hume: I suppose you are Socrates, and this is my Purgatory, and I am to be tortured with puns.
Socrates: How perceptive you are!


It goes on of course; in fact, it goes on for a whole book and if you don’t recognize Kreeft’s Socrates I’d be surprised. My knowledge of philosophy is very poor and even Kreeft had great difficulty, along with his fellow students, with their attempts to find out where Hume went wrong. I am struggling with the book and am still very close to the beginning (the book proper begins with the conversation posted above). So I’m going to ask that we stay away from Hume at this point. Kreeft says that Hume was logical and defined his terms and was clear. I disagree. He’s about as hazy as a philosopher can be, IMHO.
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                                                 I agree with you but knowledge that suffering will come to an end does not prevent one from suffering when we know others are suffering. Compassion is not concerned with the future but what is happening **now**.
Well, I’m not going to wager that Pascal is wrong (:D) but I am thinking about a woman in labor, going through agonizing pain but knowing that her baby (who is being monitored and is healthy) will soon be born even though it might be another twenty hours of pain and she’s already knocked her husband unconscious because he said something unfunny as she was going “ooh, ooh, ooh” in her Lamaze breathing technique and she slugged him and she has begged for pain meds so her doctor winked at the nurses and proceeded to inject her with sterile water (ha ha) and she is not dilating and she is hurting so much but she wants that baby and loves that baby but how much pain can one person take and why aren’t they doing a C-section and here comes another contraction and nobody is within hitting range anymore…and she screams. Does Jesus identify with her in her pain? I think He does. Does He have compassion for her? Oh yes! Does He love her? He gave His life for her so I would say “yes.” Is He in agony with her? This is where I get stuck. I don’t know. If He *loves *her enough to give His own life for her then He really does love her but he also has known from the beginning of time everything that is going to happen to her and to her children and grandchildren and great-great-great-great grandchildren. He knows what agony is as He went through much more agony than the rest of all the people who have ever existed have gone through and that was just during His Agony in the Garden. Her agony is so little compared to His but then I suppose it helped Jesus to receive strength from his Father. If I loved that woman in labor I would want to take her pain for her so I guess Jesus may be in agony. I just don’t know at this point.

Is having compassion for someone the same as being in agony? I was looking at it from a physical perspective but compassion is more of an emotion. So are you saying that Jesus is in agony because He has compassion for us? Would you please explain this a bit more and please, leave Hume out until I am able to understand him a bit better (thanks)?

I’m also wondering about a woman in painful labor who is going to die during that labor and who has a mortal sin on her soul. Jesus, being omniscient, knows and has always known that she would not choose God and she will be spending eternity in hell. If He is in agony with her while she is suffering in labor wouldn’t He also be in agony with her when she is in hell? So wouldn’t Jesus always be in agony? If He really, really loves this woman wouldn’t He suffer with her as she is damned and as she suffers in hell?

*Kreeft, Peter, *Socrates Meets Hume,*2010,Ignatius Press,San Francisco,p.15
 
If God constantly worked miracles everyone would be compelled to believe that a benevolent Power exists.
But…wouldn’t that be good?
The Church requires at least two miracles for every saint and there are many saints as well as many other well documented miracles…
Bzzzzp! Wrong (sorry). The Church normally requires two miracles for a saint to be canonized. The Church never says that any particular (deceased) person is not in heaven. No miracle is required for sainthood. One must only be in heaven to be a saint (or be one of those rare “saints on earth”).
Why do you think God permits suffering?
Why indeed? I think it has to do with our sinful nature which we can’t help but have since Adam sinned (thanks a lot, Adam). And it has to do with free will. And suffering can teach us. And in Purgatory suffering actually purges imperfections from us so that we are perfect and can enter heaven. Suffering isn’t all bad. Jesus’ suffering was immense but it (and His Resurrection) opened the gates of heaven and that is *very *good. Martyrs can suffer a lot but then they zoom straight to heaven and that’s good, too. When we repent and atone we suffer but it ends in our sins being forgiven. When God permits my suffering He is giving me something I can sacrifice and a small bit of understanding of Jesus’ Passion and of others’ suffering so that perhaps I can help them. I remember having Morton’s neuromas in both feet. It causes a burning pain and when it gets bad people pull their shoes off and rub their toes. I had had one surgery which failed and I was in a psych unit of a hospital because I was trying to learn to get through panic attacks without medication (I failed). Some of the nurses were laughing at me and saying “Her feet? How stupid! Her *feet *hurt? So what’s the big deal - she complains about every little pain!” The surgeon told me that if a person with severe Morton’s neuroma (like mine) was crossing the street and a semi was barreling down on him at 100 mph and that burning pain started, the person would stop walking and pull his shoes off to rub his toes and get smashed by the truck. He knew how bad the pain was. The nurses didn’t know because none had experienced it and didn’t think I had any credibility (they also thought I was faking my panic attacks so that I would get attention).

I’ll have to respond to the rest of your post later.
 
The mere fact of existence does not show there is Design. Some kinds of existence would point to randomness and lack of purpose. The universe could be chaotic and disorderly that life and rational thought would be impossible. Yet it is orderly and predictable, facts which require explanation.

Aquinas pointed out:

“When diverse things are coordinated the scheme depends on their directed unification, as the order of battle of a whole army hangs on the plan of the commander-in-chief. The arrangement of diverse things cannot be dictated their own private and divergent natures; of themselves they are diverse and exhibit no tendency to make a pattern. It follows that the order of many among themselves either a matter of chance or it must be resolved into one first planner who has a purpose in mind. What comes about always or in the great majority of cases is not the result of accident. Therefore the whole of this world has but one planner or governor.”

Hume rejected this argument with a question:

“And instead of admiring the order of natural beings may it not happen that, could we penetrate into the intimate nature of bodies we should clearly see why it was absolutely impossible there could ever admit of any other disposition?”

He goes on to say:

“But wherever matter is so arranged and adjusted as to continue in perpetual motion and yet preserve a constancy in the forms its situation must of necessity have all the same appearance of art and contrivance which we observe at present.”

In other words Hume is arguing that any orderly universe must have an appearance of design but he has not shown there need be “a constancy in the forms”. Even an orderly universe could be changing so rapidly that nothing is constant. He is postulating physical necessity for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

In addition, he assumes there is at least one mind capable of appreciating the appearance of design. And that mind, according to Hume’s interpretation of mental activity, would depend for its existence on regularity in nature! So his objection applies only to universes in which there is at least one mind and not to all possible universes. In other words he is begging the question…

Belief in design does not imply that regularities cannot come about by chance. It implies that the regularities in the universe **taken in conjunction with their results **cannot be adequately explained by the random movements of atomic particles. Even chance events are subject to laws. The Poisson distribution, for example, describes very beautifully the occurrence of isolated events in a continuum. Mathematical functions are based to a some extent on physical reality. It is therefore reasonable to believe there is a beneficent framework of statistical laws which enable many types of being to coexist in harmony.

The universe could conceivably be far simpler and far less complex than it is. The immense amount of coordination and subordination of events is evidence of Design when taken in conjunction with the existence of persons, moral truths, beauty and love. It is irrational to believe rationality has an irrational origin!
When I read this post I began to think that there is no God at all. What does the way the universe is have to do with love, an emotion? We may see beauty in the universe but that may be just because we are part of it and our sensory systems are wired that way. Besides, there are some really ugly, disgusting things in this universe - like that Horla or whatever it was called on Star Trek (yeah I know it’s fictional). Not only did the humans find the Horla to be horrendously hideously ugly, the Horla thought the same of them (although she thought Spock was the best-looking of the group).

How could the universe be far simpler and less complex than it is? What does moral truth have to do with a nova or a black hole?
 
Between 1925-1980 Archbishop Fulton Sheen wrote seventy-three books. Perhaps the best of these was Peace of Soul (1949). In the chapter titled “Is God Hard to Find?” he remarks: “All that any animal wants is to have its immediate wants granted; this is never the case with man. Man is animated by an urge, and unquenchable desire to enlarge his vision and to know the ultimate meaning of things. If he were only an animal, he would never use symbols, for what are these but attempts to transcend the visible? No, he is a “metaphysical animal,” a being ever longing for answers to the last question. The natural tendency of the intellect toward truth and of the will toward love would alone signify that there is in man a natural desire for God…. As the stomach yearns for food and the eye for light and the ear for harmony, so the soul craves God…. Atheism is not the knowledge that God does not exist, but only the wish that He did not, in order that one could sin without reproach or exalt one’s ego without challenge. The pillars upon which atheism mounts are sensuality and pride. An atheist may be moral in the popular acceptance of the term, but he is not humble…. Yet ever since the days of Adam man has been hiding from God and saying, ‘God is hard to find.’ The truth is that in each heart, there is a secret garden which God made uniquely for Himself. That garden is locked like a safety-deposit vault: it has two keys. God has one key; hence the the soul cannot let in anyone else but God. The human heart has the other key; hence not even God can get in without man’s consent…. We pretend to look for our key, to have mislaid it, to have given up the search; but all the while it is in our hand, if we would only see it. The reason we are not happy as saints is because we do not wish to be saints.”

In my view the atheist has kept his key in his pocket, for the usual reasons. 😉
I hope you don’t mind me asking this, but when you were an atheist did you not want God to exist and for the reasons posted? I don’t know exactly what I was (atheist or agnostic) but I WANTED God to exist. I’m having a crisis of faith right now (it’s common with me because my faith is weak) and the possibility of no afterlife and not existing frightens me. I want God to exist and to be my Father and to love me. I feel a need to go home and I wonder if heaven is that home, not the house and family I had when I was growing up.

Even when I didn’t know if there was a God I still wanted to be a good person - just because it’s the right way to be. I didn’t know why it’s the right way. I just knew that it was.

I like the part about the two keys. That makes sense to me.
 
If you’re going to fight science, you need science. Where is your science? You have not in anyway proved how evolution is false. There is an incredible amount of proof of evolution. You have not stated how its all wrong or false. You have not presented any scientific evidence against it. I’m waiting to see some. 🙂 Saying “God did it” is not science.

Show me literal scientific studies against evolution.
 
It’s not just you. Ii is the same for me. Yet I am content with the fact that God has given me the gift of rational insight in order to be able to embrace Him. Others appear to have had more personal experiences of God, but it seems that God has not deemed it necessary to grant me such an experience. I am fine with that.
Yes, I really wonder about the people claiming to have personal experiences of God - are they really hearing God or is it just their mind.
Nope.

However, try listening to the Gospel during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.:clapping:
I do, but that’s not the same thing.
How could you be genuinely free to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love if you had coercive evidence that God exists?
Well, I agree that might be the case - but then by the same token you’d also have an argument against the existence of miracles then. 😉
 
Little Soldier -

You mentioned weak faith, a crisis of faith.

This is not on topic, but I’ll make a quick recommendation and then go away.

I just finished reading the best book I ever read. The title is deceivingly simple “The Gift of Faith” by Fr. Tadeusz Dajczer. It’s about 200 pages long. After reading this book, I must say that my eyes were opened (at least partly) and I’m not as blind as I was before. The parables of Jesus make more sense. Suffering makes more sense. LOTH makes more sense, the Mass makes more sense. Even Mary’s role (past and current) makes more sense. Everything makes more sense. Perhaps you would benefit from reading this book. And it has nothing of ID or evolution or deep philosophy in it. It’s easy to read but also profound.

It seems that my response to every statement on every page is "Yup, that’s obviously true. And the implications are at the same time frightening and beautiful. And loving.

The book is not expensive, I think I got it for about $11 on Amazon.
 
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