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atheistgirl
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Sarah x
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inocente
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Methinks you’re trying to tiptoe away from the question. Why does the design of the universe entail 170 billion galaxies rather than just one, or rather than quadrillions? It’s kind of an obvious question to test your hypothesis.
Subjective.
Playing with words bro?
Then your OP hypothesis needs to be amended.
So you’re now saying there’s no evidence for design in the laws of nature?
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inocente
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I never said anything about coincidences - were you answering my post or did you get it mixed up with another?
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reggieM
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When science and technology invent some new, useful product or process – it’s a work of genius, etc. Obviously a “great design”.
When it is revealed that they copied the plan from what is found in nature, then unintelligent and purposeful events are given the credit and there is “no evidence of design in it at all”.
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reggieM
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There’s a scientific estimate that reduces (eliminates) the probability that the image was the product of human or natural-process design.
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reggieM
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A skeptic could do something like this:
– How do you know that there is an image on the cloth? Prove that there really is an image there.
– Maybe you’re just imagining it.
– Maybe everybody who claims to see the image is suffering from a group-hallucination.
– It’s like looking at clouds, people see what they want to see, but there really is no image there at all.
Answer: “When mapped against the photographic/physical image of a human face, the markings on the Shroud correspond exactly to where eyes, nose, cheekbones, etc are actually placed. Plus, it has a three-dimensional quality.”
Suggestion: If it is possible that the Shroud is really a supernatural image, then that should have some implications on the positive assertion of atheism that “God does not exist”.
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atheistgirl
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Ooppps… I had a nice little reply for you, but have deleted it as I remembered all discussion of Atheism and Evolution is banned right across the CAF board now.
Sarah x
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reggieM
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Sorry - I shouldn’t have introduced that topic. Maybe I can reword the statement.Ooppps… I had a nice little reply for you, but have deleted it as I remembered all discussion of Atheism and Evolution is banned right across the CAF board now.
Sarah x
If these scientists are correct about the Shroud, then:
Human design – ruled out
Natural process – ruled out
Chance – ruled out
Since design is a function of reason, and the image gives evidence of having been designed, then if the scientists are correct – would the Shroud be evidence that a non-natural, non-human reason does exist and does create observable designs in nature?
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grannymh
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The scientific jargon which I have seen in regard to a particular “miracle” is the “conclusion” that there is an extraordinary phenomenon. No more. No less.It does make me smile
When science and scientists make statements that those of faith find uncomfortable, they say Oi Vey, scientists schmientists, what do they know … they’re obviously wrong and the science is wrong.
Soon as science or scientists say something they like - pow … it HAS to be right lol
I’m a sceptic - and Im especially sceptical of any so called ‘‘scientist’’ who just immediately fills in the gaps with ‘‘it must be miraculous’’. Sorry, but they have no credibility as scientists in my view. Much better to say, this is one way it COULD be done, but quite HOW it could be done this way, within the laws of nature, we don’t know for sure… rather than fill in the gaps with the supernatural.
Kinda tells me their agenda
Sarah x
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buffalo
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That is faith.
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buffalo
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Putting this in perspective - guess where man is with regards to the smallest distances and largest?
Scale of the universe
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inocente
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I had a quick look for the research paper and found one by that group published in 2010. It says they were working on it for five years, in line with the news report posted earlier.The scientific jargon which I have seen in regard to a particular “miracle” is the “conclusion” that there is an extraordinary phenomenon. No more. No less.
They conclude that similar coloration to the shroud can be produced by “nanosecond-duration VUV laser”, but only if the intensity is in a very narrow range – too low and not much happens, too high and the linen is vaporized. That means they can only color the surface of the thread, while I think on the shroud the color is all the way through. Also, they’ve done nothing to rule out any other possibilities, and previous studies have concluded the shroud is a fake.
Being a thorough cynic, I also wander why they made news of this just in time for Christmas.
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inocente
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I’d guess roughly in the middle, since really tiny things can’t be sufficiently complicated and really big things tend to get squashed under their own gravity.
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atheistgirl
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I dont think so.
However the Shroud was formed, It will have been by natural means.
Scientists may not know exactly by what natural means as of yet, but they’ll crack it one day for sure, the the explanation will involved nothing outside of nature. Of that I am as sure as sure can be.
Sarah x
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buffalo
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It will be interesting to see what natural cause beamed 34 thousand billion watts at the shroud on a specific day. But, your faith is great, that science will soon figure it out.I dont think so.
However the Shroud was formed, It will have been by natural means.
Scientists may not know exactly by what natural means as of yet, but they’ll crack it one day for sure, the the explanation will involved nothing outside of nature. Of that I am as sure as sure can be.
Sarah x
It will still have to answer why.
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inocente
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Errr … that number of Watts might quite possibly have vaporized four city blocks.It will be interesting to see what natural cause beamed 34 thousand billion watts at the shroud on a specific day. But, your faith is great, that science will soon figure it out.
It will still have to answer why.
The research paper says 3 x 10[sup]9[/sup] W/cm[sup]2[/sup] - the cm[sup]2[/sup] is important since the laser beam would be much more narrow and fewer Watts.
As usual journalists exaggerate - the research team don’t even make much of a claim and conclude with “The enigma of the origin of the body image of the Turin Shroud is still a challenge to our intelligence”.
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atheistgirl
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This isnt necessarily how it happened and is simply speculation:
I shall await further developments
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
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Indeed.
Much as anyone accepting a supernatural origin for the Shroud would have to explain how that supernatural origin is linked in any way with the God of Revelation.
Sarah x
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MindOverMatter2
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Is that really you in that picture?Indeed.
Much as anyone accepting a supernatural origin for the Shroud would have to explain how that supernatural origin is linked in any way with the God of Revelation.
Sarah x
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buffalo
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Uh - it was God’s son. the second person of the Trinity.Indeed.
Much as anyone accepting a supernatural origin for the Shroud would have to explain how that supernatural origin is linked in any way with the God of Revelation.
Sarah x
Take a look at this. Ever heard of Saint Faustina and the image she had painted?
Divine Mercy and Shroud of Turin
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