Evidence for Design?

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Al

I wish you would explain why Newton could see intelligent design throughout the universe but you cannot.

Do I get another “Huh?”
 
So-called “Intelligent Design” theory is a pseudo-scientific “research program” invented in 1987…
Here’s a book from 1928 – a text used in Catholic colleges: Cosmology, Fr. James McWilliams, S.J.
Structural Order. Teleology is order in activity, and is therefore called dynamic order. But there is also the order of structure. Structural order ; is the harmonious arrangement of diverse integral parts in one pattern or configuration. Thus the frond of a fern or palm has leaflets or blades, arranged along the stern in a recognizable pattern. Structural order is characterized by symmetry and proportion. Symmetry is the repetition of some feature, as in the similarity of two leaflets on opposite sides of the stem, or the two eyes of an animal. Proportion is the gradation of a feature or character according to a more or less fixed ratio; thus in the frond the row of leaflets on either side of the stem is arranged in gradually diminishing sizes from the base to the tip. Structural order is observable in the wings of a bird, in a snowflake, in a frost- flower on a window-pane. In fact, a most interesting study is the examination of natural objects, even with a microscope, to discover their intricate and amazing structures. Moreover, X-rays disclose a structure in the very atoms themselves.
It is true that structure is often suitable for useful activity, still it can be recognized without our knowing its utility. Hence, structural order, apart from dynamic order, furnishes independent evidence for intelligence. But since the formation of the arguments the same in both cases, we combine the evidence from both sources to one set of proofs. And although we recognize purposive activity from its useful results, which we contend could not be attained unless intended, structural order is recognized by merely noting its symmetry and proportion, without our being required to know its purpose. It must not be thought, however, that structural order is necessarily immobile and unchangeable. The structure of an organism changes in its progress from the germ state to that of maturity; and when the organism dies, the same matter is taken up by ether organisms to be formed into other structures. Included under structure are the arrangement and shading of colors, as in flowers, butterflies and practically all animals. We may even extend the term to graceful motion; and, on the authority of musicians, to the very** bird songs, which, to be truly musical, must have harmonious “structure.”**
Many things, when taken on a large scale, as mountains and the stars, have no symmetry or proportion. By reason of their immensity and their inherent mystery, they can only be denominated as sublime and as transcending the status of mere patterns. Nevertheless, on a small scale, the very crystals of granite and the atoms which are known to exist in the stars, have a minute and intricate structural order. Order cannot be explained by_chance much less can its repetition and continuance be so explained. The only alternative is intelligence. And whether that Intelligence created the world, or merely arranged and operates it, to reject His existence is to dethrone reason.

Thesis 2. The material universe displays purposive finality and structural order, for which the ultimate reason must be sought in a supramundane intelligent cause.

Part 1. Intelligence is required

All grant that there is marvelous order in nature, that countless specimens of natural objects exhibit an in an intricate structure, and act and interact in such a way as to preserve and develop a highly ordered universe. But such order can be explained only on the ground that some intelligence intended it.
The minor. a) There is no other sufficient cause, as is acknowledged by the conviction of all mankind in much simpler effects. Let a man but discover on some lone island a crude tomahawk or a sundial, and no amount of argument will persuade him that these things were the product of unreasoning nature. The human mind recognizes an
essential connection between fitness and intention.
Our experience also warrants the conviction that a highly complicated order cannot result
otherwise than from intelligent selection and arrangement of the parts. We cannot so much as lay a tile floor in a simple pattern of alternate colors unless we be allowed to see the color of each tile, and thus recognize its fitness for its particular place. The same is true of the construction of the simplest implement or machine. One may construct a photographic camera which with proper adjustment will focus an object before it, but he cannot secure this effect without intelligent selection and arrangement of the materials to that end. Yet every eye regularly represents what is before it, even the most shifting scenes. And if the ordered performances of the eye are worthy of years of study, what shall we say of the order throughout the universe from atom to solar system?
(c) Moreover, the order in the universe does not happen just once,—as might be said of a still picture.
There is constant change in every instant of time, and always there is order preserved in all the mutations and developments. To attempt to explain such progressive results, achieved by astounding coordination and cooperation of the constituent elements, without having recourse to an intelligent cause is to stultify the human mind.
Well…I do see proof here.
👍
 
The theists among them will concede that God designed the universe and everything in it, then turn right around and say it was all random.

Silly-putty logic. :rolleyes:
Exactly. 👍 Of course, they will insist that it’s not really random at all. It’s just an accumulation of copying errors. 🙂 Then we have “selection” which selects things – but really doesn’t. It just causes things to happen – but really doesn’t. It just preserves things, or not, based on random factors, which are not random. :rolleyes:

Then everything struggles to survive because … <#####> theory made it that way?

Of course, because if chemical compounds didn’t struggle to survive, then they would die and merely be chemical compounds – and nobody wants to do that, obviously!. 🙂
Do you wonder why so many evolutionists like Richard Dawkins are atheists? If everything is random, who needs God?
True. Or if God is just a Law Maker, and Laws rule everything – then we also don’t need God. Laws will just do what they do. There would be no need to pray.
 
I offered you proof, but you ignored it. Here it is again:
Sorry, but I believe there is an excerptor mentioned a couple of posts ago that completely shatters your contention.

Your ‘proof’ is nothing more then a clever graph.
I can build google charts all day long to show relationships between just about anything.

Perhaps you misunderstand what exactly proof is.

Proof in your case is very hard to come by.
You claimed that ID was ‘invented’ in 1987.
All anyone need do is show ID present before then to show your falsehood.
This has been done to my satisfaction.
 
Al

I wish you would explain why Newton could see intelligent design throughout the universe but you cannot.

Do I get another “Huh?”
I don’t see biological ID throughout the universe, but I see intelligent design throughout the universe just like Newton, in the sense that the laws of nature that bring about the development of the universe are designed by God.

I have repeated that position many times, and you have ignored it just as many times.

In Newton’s days science was not as advanced as it is now. With the knowledge at Newton’s disposal, also biological ID was a reasonable position to hold back then.
 
Proof in your case is very hard to come by.
You claimed that ID was ‘invented’ in 1987.
All anyone need do is show ID present before then to show your falsehood.
This has been done to my satisfaction.
Evidently you didn’t read the article in the link.
 
Let’s take a look at these remarkable replies from Fr. McWilliam’s Catholic textbook. He offers objections to intelligent design and then answers the objections:

Obj .4. Science follows the principle of closed causality, i.e. not to seek outside the world for an explanation of things in the world. But such a principle excludes an extramundane causes of the world’s order.
Reply. The scope of physical science is to discover the integral parts of bodies and to formulate laws of their activities; hence it is not called upon to give any explanation beyond that such and such is the nature of their bodies. Science takes nature as dataum, but if it be true science it does not condemn the philosophical attempt to explain nature. On the contrary scientific investigation supplies philosophy with abundant data from which to reason to an extramundane cause of the world’s order. Thus science, whether willingly or not, becomes an ancilla philosophiae.

Obj .5. Out of all the combinations possible to chance the present world order is one. Therefore that order may be due to chance.
Reply… When we consider that there is order in each single atom, and molecule, and crystal, and cell, and organ, and organism, and in the interrelation of all the various classes of beings, and that there is cooperation to a refined degree among all the forms of energy, and when we reflect on the countless constituents of the material world, we begin to see how futile is the appeal to chance. But that is not all; the world is in a condition of constant change, and has been so, according to science, for millions of years. The astounding chance which the objection postulates for any given instant of that time must be repeated all over again in that infinitesimal fraction of the world’s duration; for order is preserved throughout the continuous change. Such an occurrence is mathematically and metaphysically impossible. The idea of its happening by chance even once makes the mind reel …

Obj . 6. Given a certain amount of matter, equipped with certain forces, and granted that the matter thus diversified he distributed in the proper ratio and collocation, then all the physical and chemical processes which we recognize as world result necessarily. But what results necessarily does not require intelligence. Therefore world-processes do not require intelligence.
Reply. If what results is disorder, I grant that it does not require intelligence. If what results is an ordered series of events. then, that it does not require intelligence, I deny. The objection, in fact, fails on four counts. (a) it supplies that finality does not omit the natural agent_to act
That supposition is false. For, as we have seen, finality does not exclude necessity in the activity of the immediate material agent. (b) The objection is silent on the exact point at issue, which is not that the forces act and interact with necessity, but that they do so in such a way that a very complicated and highly ordered universe results and continues unceasingly to result and develop. This is the fact that ways stares us in the face, and from which the clamor about necessity (which no one denies) can never distract our attention. Necessity is irrelevant: it can be present in activities that produce disorder, as in the wreck of a railway train; it can be present in activities that produce order, as in the smoothly operating machine. Necessity in activity is not opposed to finality, it is opposed to freedom. But wherever there is order whether in free or necessary actions, intelligence alone can be responsible for the order. So much for the explanation of the distinction given at the beginning of our reply. Furthermore, (c) reason cannot grant the postulate that plants and animals, and even the intellect of man, are, as the objection supposes, purely the results of physico-chernical forces. Finally, (d) the postulate begs the question, for it implies that matter with its forces and arrangement is unproduced and self-evident, that it not only acts necessarily but exists necessarily, that it is a se, or in other words the absolutely ultimate reality, and that therefore no further explanation of world-order can possibly be found. To ask that we grant such a postulate is tantamount to asking that we
grant the conclusion of the argument before the argument begins.

Obj . 7. Nature is a machine. But a machine needs no intelligence.
Reply. Nature is more than a mere machine. Even a machine, however, needs an intelligent builder, and usually an intelligent operator.

Obj . 9. Many things in nature are abhorrent, as pain, parasites, the struggle for existence. But these things cannot be considered as intended by a wise and beneficent Creator.
Reply. The examples cited give evidence of intelligence, whether pleasant or not. Our task here is to show that the Author of the world is intelligent. We leave to theodicy the vindication of His wisdom and goodness.

books.google.com/books/about/Cosmology.html?id=KFBVAAAAMAAJ
 
As the number of posts on this thread now amounts to over a thousand and is likely to be closed quite soon I wish to draw attention to my original statement:

1.** Design** explains all the most important aspects of existence: truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, the order of the universe, the origin of life, the progressive development and existence of rational, autonomous, moral beings who have the capacity for unselfish love and the right to life, freedom and self-determination.

In further support of that view I believe scientific and metascientific evidence for Design consists of:
  1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.
  2. The directiveness of living organisms.
  3. The progressive nature of development.
  4. The information system contained in the DNA code.
  5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.
  6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.
  7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.
Does anyone reject **all **of these factors as evidence for Design?
 
I don’t see biological ID throughout the universe, but I see intelligent design throughout the universe just like Newton, in the sense that the laws of nature that bring about the development of the universe are designed by God.
One reason why people, apparently, are misunderstanding your view (aside from the “fact” that all biological ID people are dishonest, evil, corrupted, etc) … is that your view is confused and is shifting as we discuss these matters.

You are on record as accepting cosmological fine-tuning (the cosmological ID view). You stated that earlier in the thread.

Now here, you have changed that view, insisting that this is what you actually meant – that “the laws of nature bring about the development of the universe” and this is design.

That’s a contradiction. You’re moving away from cosmological fine-tuning and coming up with a different argument.

See? That’s why people question you. Cosmological fine-tuning is an argument against the laws of the universe. It is because fine-tuning cannot be explained by law or chance that it is evidence of design.

That’s where your position is quite confused. At the rate you’re going, I would not be surprised if you actually denied that you saw cosmological fine-tuning as evidence of design. After all, it’s very close to the biological-ID position and we all know how bad that is. 🙂
 
One reason why people, apparently, are misunderstanding your view (aside from the “fact” that all biological ID people are dishonest, evil, corrupted, etc) … is that your view is confused and is shifting as we discuss these matters.

You are on record as accepting cosmological fine-tuning (the cosmological ID view). You stated that earlier in the thread.

Now here, you have changed that view, insisting that this is what you actually meant – that “the laws of nature bring about the development of the universe” and this is design.

That’s a contradiction. You’re moving away from cosmological fine-tuning and coming up with a different argument.

See? That’s why people question you. Cosmological fine-tuning is an argument against the laws of the universe. It is because fine-tuning cannot be explained by law or chance that it is evidence of design.

That’s where your position is quite confused. At the rate you’re going, I would not be surprised if you actually denied that you saw cosmological fine-tuning as evidence of design. After all, it’s very close to the biological-ID position and we all know how bad that is. 🙂
Huh? As is obvious from your post, the one who is confused here is you.

" Cosmological fine-tuning is an argument against the laws of the universe."

Now that’s the funniest thing here in a while.
 
At the rate you’re going, I would not be surprised if you actually denied that you saw cosmological fine-tuning as evidence of design. After all, it’s very close to the biological-ID position and we all know how bad that is. 🙂
No it’s not. It is radically different. But you don’t see that, do you?
 
Huh? As is obvious from your post, the one who is confused here is you.

" Cosmological fine-tuning is an argument against the laws of the universe."

Now that’s the funniest thing here in a while.
Which laws of the universe explain fine-tuning?
 
No it’s not. It is radically different. But you don’t see that, do you?
Well, let’s get back to your own shifting views on this for now.

Leonard Susskind: If, for some unforeseen reason, the [multiverse] turns out to be inconsistent – maybe for mathematical reasons, or because it disagrees with observation – I am pretty sure that physicists will go on searching for natural explanations of the world. But I have to say that if that happens, as things stand now we will be in a very awkward position. Without any explanation of nature’s fine-tunings we will be hard pressed to answer the ID critics. One might argue that the hope that a mathematically unique solution will emerge is as faith-based as ID.

A blog comments:

Susskind has presented the physics community with what is, for some (not this writer), a Sophie’s Choice: a hidious, complictated, unfalsifiable String-Theory Landscape, or Intelligent Design.

Susskind rocks.
 
Which laws of the universe explain fine-tuning?
Huh? What does this have to with anything? Of course no laws explain it, God explains it. But that doesn’t make fine-tuning an argument against the laws of nature – it explains them.
 
Well, let’s get back to your own shifting views on this for now.

Leonard Susskind: If, for some unforeseen reason, the [multiverse] turns out to be inconsistent – maybe for mathematical reasons, or because it disagrees with observation – I am pretty sure that physicists will go on searching for natural explanations of the world. But I have to say that if that happens, as things stand now we will be in a very awkward position. Without any explanation of nature’s fine-tunings we will be hard pressed to answer the ID critics. One might argue that the hope that a mathematically unique solution will emerge is as faith-based as ID.

Update: Susskind is fast becoming the darling of the IDers. A new posting on the web-site “Intelligent Design the Future” run by the Discovery Institute links to a review by IDer and nuclear physicist David Heddle entitled Susskind’s Sophie’s Choice.

Heddle concludes:

Susskind has presented the physics community with what is, for some (not this writer), a Sophie’s Choice: a hidious, complictated, unfalsifiable String-Theory Landscape, or Intelligent Design.

Susskind rocks.
Aah, see, the confusion is on your side.

I have repeated several (many) times that the term ID is commonly used for biological ID and not for cosmological Intelligent Design. But you didn’t listen.

And in the above the two terms are confused with one another.
 
Huh? What does this have to with anything? Of course no laws explain it, God explains it. But that doesn’t make fine-tuning an argument against the laws of nature – it explains them.
Fine-tuning arguments explain laws which are incapable of explaining fine-tuning. :confused:

Let’s just leave it with the part that makes sense: “no laws explain it”.

God bless.
 
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