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tonyrey
Guest
Its blind inflexibility is the very reason why it is an inadequate explanation of rational beings.
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tonyrey
Guest
Even nature’s tendency towards disorder exists within the framework of order!
Otherwise we wouldn’t exist and be capable of recognising disorder…
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tonyrey
Guest
If Design is only apparent then rationality is an illusion…
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tonyrey
Guest
The fact that all natural objects must have a Creator (and Designer) does not imply that **all **natural objects are **directly **created and designed. Many are byproducts which serve no useful purpose and may even disrupt the system.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
I was responding to Buffalo’s stance of biological ID. While I reject it (evolution works just fine, than you), I believe in the design of the universe. And I believe in a rational soul, of course. But the latter has nothing to do with biological ID, since it is not made of matter.
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tonyrey
Guest
Do you believe God designed the universe, created its physical components and has taken no further part in the physical proceedings?
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Al_Moritz
Guest
You always ask me the same question and never listen to what I say.
God is constantly active in His creation by sustaining it, endowed as it is with the laws of nature that He created.
This is both classical metaphysics and Catholic doctrine.
Edward Feser, by the way, one of today’s foremost promoters of classical metaphysics, is anti-ID.
The idea that God would be a deistic God if he does not constantly ‘intervene’ in a ‘designing’ manner is based on a lack of knowledge of classical metaphysics and based on false, un-Catholic theology *). You should study metaphysics. As an introduction I strongly recommend Feser’s Aquinas (and no, in the book he does not discuss ID).
And obviously, God does work physical miracles, the greatest one of them having been the resurrection of Christ.
*) with this I am not claiming that the idea of ID is anti-Catholic. Please read my words carefully.
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tonyrey
Guest
Are physical miracles restricted to the Resurrection and healing people? Do you believe God never prevents accidents or natural disasters or answers prayers for other purposes?
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buffalo
Guest
Why should biological design be the exception?
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buffalo
Guest
How does He sustain it? Quantum physics suggests that he operates in the pores.
How about constantly adding information? (His breath so to speak?
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Al_Moritz
Guest
It is very well possible that God intervenes physically to prevent accidents. But He can do that also by simply intervening in the spiritual domain (the soul).
The soul interacts with the human mind, and God mainly interacts with mankind through the soul. By influencing the soul of people, God also influences human actions and their influence on the physical world. No physical miracles are needed in this manner of God influencing things and communicating. Importantly, God also communicates with and influences humans on a spiritual level, in a relationship with Him.
The influence through the soul could have major consequences, like in influencing the mind of human rulers for example, or in steering ‘coincidences’. Let’s suppose the following: Mr. Miller is seriously injured in a car accident. He was a pedestrian at the time, and the driver was nervous and distracted because he was in a hurry. He was in a hurry because the lady in the store, who was supposed to have packed his purchase as a gift for his wife, had forgotten to do so while he was doing other purchases and did not have the gift ready when he re-entered the store. Now let’s turn the story around. God feels compelled to give the store employee a subtle mental clue through which she reminds herself that she has to pack the gift for the gentleman while he makes some other purchases. The gentleman then is not in a hurry on his way home, and not distracted. He does see Mr. Miller and stops. Mr. Miller does not get hurt. Why did God give the store employee a subtle mental clue? Someone had prayed for Mr. Miller than he would be protected from harm. God steered ‘coincidences’ without suspension of physical laws. A prayer was heard while no miracle occurred.
You might ask, why does God not physically prevent all car accidents? Or while we’re at it, why not physically prevent all earthquakes, landslides, wildfires, cancers etc.? Everything has its natural order, and in that case the natural order would be overthrown. Analysis suggests that constant intervention of God in the natural order would eventually have to have Him go to such lengths that then even the outcome of human actions would be unpredictable, i.e., one could not know what to expect from one’s own actions. Also, we might live in a nice Disneyland world, but it would become pointless after a while, since it does not allow for growth, progress and virtue through adversity.
The last paragraph should also be an answer to God preventing natural disasters. If you really believe God does prevent them, I have a simply question for you: why then did He not prevent the tsunami in Japan?
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buffalo
Guest
Top Ten Darwin and Design Science News Stories for 2011
1.50th Peer-Reviewed Pro-ID Scientific Paper Published.
2.The Design of the Butterfly Continues to Inspire and Amaze.
3.Woodpecker Drumming Inspires Shock-Absorbing System.
4.Stylus Aims to Bridge Gap Between Real World and Artificial Evolutionary Simulation.
5.Explosive Radiation of Flowering Plants Confirmed.
6.Golden Orb-Weaver Fossil Spider Provides New Evidence for Stasis.
7.Complexity in the Universe Appears Earlier Than Thought.
8.An Identity Crises for Human Ancestors.
9.DNA Repair Mechanisms Reveal a Contradiction in Evolutionary Theory.
10.The Limits to Self-Organization Identified.
1.50th Peer-Reviewed Pro-ID Scientific Paper Published.
2.The Design of the Butterfly Continues to Inspire and Amaze.
3.Woodpecker Drumming Inspires Shock-Absorbing System.
4.Stylus Aims to Bridge Gap Between Real World and Artificial Evolutionary Simulation.
5.Explosive Radiation of Flowering Plants Confirmed.
6.Golden Orb-Weaver Fossil Spider Provides New Evidence for Stasis.
7.Complexity in the Universe Appears Earlier Than Thought.
8.An Identity Crises for Human Ancestors.
9.DNA Repair Mechanisms Reveal a Contradiction in Evolutionary Theory.
10.The Limits to Self-Organization Identified.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Because it is not supported by the facts, that’s why.
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tonyrey
Guest
For the very reason you have given: the natural order would be overthrown and even the outcome of human actions would be unpredictable if He always intervened. It does not follow that He **never **intervenes. I believe - in accordance with Christ’s teaching - that God answers our prayers and intervenes far more than we realise. It is impossible to know how many disasters have been averted but we do know life has virtually become extinct on this planet several times and has survived in spite of overwhelming odds…
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Good, we agree.
Answering our prayers can also occur without God physically intervening, see above.
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tonyrey
Guest
I agree.
I added a footnote to my post.
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buffalo
Guest
I think you should get used to the fact design is here to stay.
Design exists. We know it when we see it. We know how to design.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Ouch, it has nothing to do with that. You desperately need to study classical metaphysics. Order Feser’s book on Amazon – today.
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grannymh
Guest
What I do not understand about “Evidence for Desgin” is why I.D. totally ignores the only irreducible object in the entire universe – man. Why does that happen?
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Al_Moritz
Guest
I have been a supporter of ID in the past, so I know a thing or two about it. As a supporter, I even clearly won a debate with an anti-IDer some 6 or 7 years ago, because of my superior knowledge of biochemistry (I am a biochemical scientist) that my opponent could not match.
But then I studied the issues further, got better informed, and changed my mind.
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