T
tonyrey
Guest
The supernatural becomes superfluous!
**
The theory of d****ivine non-intervention is a travesty of Providence…**
- Status
T
tonyrey
Guest
Such an allegation is out of place on a Philosophy forum. It is not only unseemly but also unsubstantiated…
A facile evasion…
R
reggieM
Guest
The claim might be, for example, computers can create purposeful, intentional design.
Computers are non-sentient, and thus things they produce are designed.
But the design (purpose, plan, intention) does not originate with the computer. It does not originate with the software or the electronics either – but rather with the intelligent agency that comes first.
We should work within the limits of what the argument attempts to prove. If we have “some designer”, then this is necessarily a non-material entity. Material processes and matter cannot produce design (intention, purpose, plan). They have no sight for the future in order to intend a purpose.
So, the argument from design is weighed against the false idea that nature can produce the design we can observe. An intelligence is required to create design.
Of course, this argument does not prove that the intelligence is the Blessed Trinity. The argument from First Cause or Necessary Being does not prove that either. But there are other arguments to support the existence of the Trinity.
One does not need to prove every attribute of God’s nature with one argument. In this case, the existence of design does prove that the existence of a non-natural intelligence is necessary.
More like this:
- We observe highly complex fine-tuned functions in various aspects of life and the universe.
- We have never observed non-sentient beings producing such functions.
- We have, however, observed that intelligence can produce such functions.
- In fact, the only known source for such functions is conscious, intentional intelligence.
- Therefore, when we observe highly complex fine-tuned functions in the universe, the most reasonable explanation is that intelligent design was involved in their origin.
It’s an interesting point. For example, we may not know “where” in the mind, or “how precisely” a mind creates design or intention – if such things were even possible to know.
What you’d need to show is that a non-sentient thing can create highly complex fine-tuned functions.
That’s what Darwin (and his followers) claim that he could show. Multiverse speculations are an attempt to show that also.
So, the claim is relevant: “Can natural processes create intentional, purposeful, planned, design indicating a high degree of complexity, function and fine-tuning?”
First: can these things be created by chance?
The problem here is that chance is in direct conflict with design.
B
buffalo
Guest
There is no evidence of this. We even know more now than 10 years ago about information driving cell processes. Here is Dr John Sanford (Cornell)
a vastly superior operating system"
** “a galaxy of design and complexity”**
** “over 90% of the genome is actively transcribed”**
** “the genome has multiple overlapping messages”**
** “data compression on the most sophisticated level”**
** “more and more the genome looks like a super super set of programs”**
** “more and more it looks like top down design”**
** “the reality is everybody is mutant”**
** “the selection process really has nothing to grab hold of”**
** “so it’s kind of a trade secret amongst population geneticists,any well informed population geneticist understands man is degenerating”**
** “so in deep geological time we should have been extinct a long time ago”**
** “the human race is degenerating at 1-5% per generation”**
** “so personal and so immediate, because there is no circle of life where things where things stay the same, and it’s not an upward spiral of evolution, things keep getting better and better, it is a downward spiral exactly as described in Scripture”**
R
reggieM
Guest
Yes, absolutely. God is continually answering prayers – holding back nature, creating new things, changing the planet in an infinite number of ways. People pray for rain, for safety in storms, for protection for their animals and crops.
This has been happening for thousands of years.
There is also mercy and justice.
We could think about Catholic “victim souls”. That’s actually what Jesus Himself was – a victim for sin.
Why?
Well, we can say for sure that Darwin cannot explain it.
R
reggieM
Guest
For me, the brain is not a supercomputer in which the neurons are transistors; rather it is as if each individual neuron is itself a computer, and the brain a vast community of microscopic computers. But even this model is probably too simplistic since the neuron processes data flexibly and on disparate levels, and is therefore far superior to any digital system. If I am right, the human brain may be a trillion times more capable than we imagine, and “artificial intelligence” a grandiose misnomer.”
— Brian J. Ford, The secrets of intelligence lie within a single cell, New Scientist, 26 April 2010
All that assembled itself through lucky mutations?
None of that offers scientific evidence for the presence of intelligence in nature?
— Brian J. Ford, The secrets of intelligence lie within a single cell, New Scientist, 26 April 2010
All that assembled itself through lucky mutations?
None of that offers scientific evidence for the presence of intelligence in nature?
T
tonyrey
Guest
I think we are at cross-purposes.MindOverMatter2;8874802 [QUOTE said:
- The element of chance plays a large part **within **the framework of Design.
- Providence implies that God cares for His creatures and prevents suffering whenever possible.
- Disease, disasters and deformities are misfortunes permitted but not willed by God.
- Misfortunes are inevitable in an immensely complex system.
- God does not always intervene because to do so would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly system.
- To rule out miracles is to deny the efficacy of prayer.
A
Al_Moritz
Guest
If you think that evolution works by “lucky mutations” alone, you have not understood it, which would explain your love for biological ID. Increasing complexity arises from cumulative natural selection (cumulative emphasized). And that is not a random process.
B
buffalo
Guest
We have to be careful here as we are going into the ************ area.
The NS process is a conservative one not a creative one.
M
MindOverMatter2
Guest
Mutations occur as a response to what scientists analogously refer to as “copying errors” in the DNA process. Those mutations, which are naturally selected, are preserved by being passed on to the next generation of offspring. Eventually, through this process, organisms gradually change until speciation occurs, and therefore new species arise.
B
buffalo
Guest
Except now we know DNA actively fights against copying errors through several iterations and repairs them.
M
MindOverMatter2
Guest
So? Even if that’s true, the process obviously isn’t efficient enough to top all mutations from being passed on to new generations, which is evident. Ever seen Down-Syndrome?
B
buffalo
Guest
Right on - it is not perfect. However, it is a major obstacle to ************** and changes the odds by orders of magnitudes. In other words, things are going south for the old paradigm.
Self correcting feedback loops are hallmarks of design.
A
Al_Moritz
Guest
In addition you get increase of genetic information that is creative, mostly by the phenomenon of gene duplication.
Suppose you have gene A’ that encodes for protein A. The gene duplicates upon reproduction; this is a fairly uncontroversial event:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_duplication
Then you have two copies that code for protein A. However, one copy mutates into gene B’, encoding for protein B, while the other copy remains unchanged. What do we now have? A genome that encodes for protein A and B.
This an enrichment of information over the original genome that encoded for protein A only.
A
Al_Moritz
Guest
You mean, hallmarks of evolution, which is a designed process.
M
MindOverMatter2
Guest
So says you, but that doesn’t really tell me that evolution has not happened. It just tells me that the propagation of a mutation doesn’t happen immensely more than it already does; and therefore it can be interpreted as serving as a genetic barrier against the possibility of far too many mutations occurring at anyone time and thus undermining the evolutionary process.
An assertion.
Or, Scientifically speaking, it is the hallmarks of a mutation that has been successfully selected and has been propagated for billions of years. The philosophical merits of your inference to design is a different story. But its not Science.
B
buffalo
Guest
M
MindOverMatter2
Guest
Thanks, but I heard it all before. I don’t think I will be following Alice down the rabbit hole today.No says me- you can see more here:
Kansas is going bye bye:wave:
R
reggieM
Guest
There’s a lot of good material on that page. Relevant to the discussion:No says me
*Is gene duplication a viable explanation for the origination of biological information and complexity? - Joseph Esfandiar Hannon Bozorgmehr *
The totality of the evidence reveals that, although duplication can and does facilitate important adaptations by tinkering with existing compounds, molecular evolution is nonetheless constrained in each and every case. Therefore, although the process of gene duplication and subsequent random mutation has certainly contributed to the size and diversity of the genome, it is alone insufficient in explaining the origination of the highly complex information pertinent to the essential functioning of living organisms.
Discovering the secrets of DNA repair
Glen Burley, an expert in DNA nanotechnology at the University of Leicester, UK, says that the work is exciting because it provides a method for investigating how bacterial spores repair damaged DNA. ‘This is a compelling question as DNA damage processes in spores differ from those in mammals,’ he says. ‘These methods would likely lead to a greater understanding of how spores can survive for long periods and in hostile conditions - for example hot springs or under UV light exposure.’
Newly Discovered DNA Repair Mechanism
Therefore, repairing damage and maintaining the integrity of its DNA is one of the cell’s highest priorities … hat is how they discovered the bacterial glycosylase AlkD with its unique detection and deletion scheme. All the known glycosylases work in basically the same fashion: They flip out the deformed base and hold it in a special pocket while they excise it. AlkD, by contrast, forces both the deformed base and the base it is paired with to flip to the outside of the double helix. This appears to work because the enzyme only operates on deformed bases that have picked up an excess positive charge, making these bases very unstable. If left alone, the deformed base will detach spontaneously. But AlkD speeds up the process by about 100 times. Eichman speculates that the enzyme might also remain at the location and attract additional repair enzymes to the site.
The totality of the evidence reveals that, although duplication can and does facilitate important adaptations by tinkering with existing compounds, molecular evolution is nonetheless constrained in each and every case. Therefore, although the process of gene duplication and subsequent random mutation has certainly contributed to the size and diversity of the genome, it is alone insufficient in explaining the origination of the highly complex information pertinent to the essential functioning of living organisms.
Discovering the secrets of DNA repair
Glen Burley, an expert in DNA nanotechnology at the University of Leicester, UK, says that the work is exciting because it provides a method for investigating how bacterial spores repair damaged DNA. ‘This is a compelling question as DNA damage processes in spores differ from those in mammals,’ he says. ‘These methods would likely lead to a greater understanding of how spores can survive for long periods and in hostile conditions - for example hot springs or under UV light exposure.’
Newly Discovered DNA Repair Mechanism
Therefore, repairing damage and maintaining the integrity of its DNA is one of the cell’s highest priorities … hat is how they discovered the bacterial glycosylase AlkD with its unique detection and deletion scheme. All the known glycosylases work in basically the same fashion: They flip out the deformed base and hold it in a special pocket while they excise it. AlkD, by contrast, forces both the deformed base and the base it is paired with to flip to the outside of the double helix. This appears to work because the enzyme only operates on deformed bases that have picked up an excess positive charge, making these bases very unstable. If left alone, the deformed base will detach spontaneously. But AlkD speeds up the process by about 100 times. Eichman speculates that the enzyme might also remain at the location and attract additional repair enzymes to the site.
T
tonyrey
Guest
The issue is whether God intervenes** in addition to natural processes** - to which the answer is surely in the affirmative unless He cannot or doesn’t wish to do so, thereby casting doubt on His omnipotence or benevolence. Discussion of the natural mechanisms is neither necessary nor legitimate on this forum.
Not one valid reason has been given for believing that God **never **intervenes or controls the course of events on this planet even though it is out of control to some extent. As David Hume observed, how can it be otherwise when events **generally **occur according to the laws of nature rather than divine volitions? What would be the point of having laws if they are continually suspended?
Not one valid reason has been given for believing that God **never **intervenes or controls the course of events on this planet even though it is out of control to some extent. As David Hume observed, how can it be otherwise when events **generally **occur according to the laws of nature rather than divine volitions? What would be the point of having laws if they are continually suspended?
- Status