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reggieM
Guest
I think the gentleman from France who started your denomination had some very strong views on Free Will.
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reggieM
Guest
Now the fun part – what do you mean by the term “design”?
I’m confused – are you the one saying that everything in the universe is designed? Doesn’t that seem like you’re not saying anything at all?
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grannymh
Guest
Nature is naturally controlled by its natural limits whether or not one believes in God. Nature, in itself, is an objective fact independent of how any human explains it.
Not too many in these parts. Would you say that “design” is an obvious part of chemistry and whatever bio refers to? Is it possible for someone wearing a designer lab frock to give an impartial objective answer? What I am trying to understand is that if “design” is the key to knowledge… as found in the first three chapters of Genesis, how can it be applied to the human person who is prominent in those chapters.
There are so many thoughts rolling between my ears, A real biochemist?You just did, perfectly (says I as a biochemist)
Not too many in these parts. Would you say that “design” is an obvious part of chemistry and whatever bio refers to? Is it possible for someone wearing a designer lab frock to give an impartial objective answer? What I am trying to understand is that if “design” is the key to knowledge… as found in the first three chapters of Genesis, how can it be applied to the human person who is prominent in those chapters.
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Borz
Guest
Oh yes… the famous catecism.
Observe: “God keeps all created things in existence. (De fide.)” God consciously keeps the bullet in existence, which will penetrate the heart of the victim. And the knife which will slash the victim.
Observe: “God co-operates immediately in every act of His creatures. (Sent. communis.)” God actively participates in every act of rape, torture and murder. Without his active participation none of these acts would (could!) happen.
Observe: “God through His providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.)” God… “protects” the victims of rape? Not!
There is no better device to combat the nonsense than using the catecism itself! Also observe. We, human beings FORCE god to go through these motions. Where is god’s sovereignty? God must act in accordance with OUR decisions… poor god…
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grannymh
Guest
Don’t know what “famous catechism” you are referring to. Sorry.
However, if you are interested in the what and how of Catholic teachings, I would suggest that you check the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. Warning! Quote-mining is dangerous.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Borz, why should God not protect and guide the bullet to its destination?
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grannymh
Guest
And this is evidence of what?
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StAnastasia
Guest
I asked Borz a question.
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buffalo
Guest
The next thing ya know they will be teaching IDvolution. 
Seems pretty comprehensive.
SECOND REGULAR SESSION
HOUSE BILL NO. 1227
96TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the state of Missouri, as follows:
170.018. 1. This section shall be known as, and may be cited as, the “Missouri Standard Science Act”.
more…
Seems pretty comprehensive.
SECOND REGULAR SESSION
HOUSE BILL NO. 1227
96TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the state of Missouri, as follows:
Code:
Section A. Chapters 170 and 174, RSMo, are amended by adding thereto two new sections, to be known as sections 170.018 and 174.890, to read as follows:
Code:
2. As used in this section, the following terms mean:
(1) "Analogous naturalistic process", a verifiable process which is either a present-day naturally occurring process similar to a past naturalistic process or the human-directed duplication of a process similar to a past naturalistic process. The verifiable process uses similar natural materials, mechanisms, and conditions as the past naturalistic process and produces an equivalent end result;
(2) "Biological evolution", a theory of the origin of life and its ascent by naturalistic means. The first simple life was developed from basic elements and simple molecules through the mechanisms of random combinations, naturally occurring molecular structures, other naturalistic means, and millions of years. From the first simple life, all subsequent species developed through the mechanisms of random variation, mutation, natural selection, adaptation, segregation, other naturalistic means, and millions of years. The theory is illustrated by the evolutionary phylogenic tree. Theory philosophically demands only naturalistic causes and denies the operation of any intelligence, supernatural event, God or theistic figure in the initial or subsequent development of life;
(3) "Biological intelligent design", a hypothesis that the complex form and function observed in biological structures are the result of intelligence and, by inference, that the origin of biological life and the diversity of all original species on earth are the result of intelligence. Since the inception of each original species, genetic material has been lost, inherited, exchanged, mutated, and recombined to result in limited variation. Naturalistic mechanisms do not provide a means for making life from simple molecules or making sufficient new genetic material to cause ascent from microscopic organisms to large life forms. The hypothesis does not address the time or sequence of life's appearance on earth, time or formation of the fossil record, and time or method of species extinction. The hypothesis does not require the identity of intelligence responsible for earth's biology but requires any proposed identity of that intelligence to be verifiable by present-day observation or experimentation. Concepts inherent within the hypothesis include:
(a) The origin of life on earth is inferred to be the result of intelligence directed design and construction. There are no plausible mechanisms or present-day experiments to prove the naturalistic origin of the first independent living organism;
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mgreen77
Guest
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grannymh
Guest
The next thing ya know they will be teaching IDvolution.
Just wondering. No offense intended. Who is left to defend our first parents? silence
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Anyone who thinks life just developed randomly on our planet should read Gerald Schroeder’s The Science of God. Chapter 4 is particularly illuminating. “Life: Its Origins and It’s Evolution.”
The span of time between the first appearance of water and the earliest fossils of bacteria (which require water) is too close for random events leading to abiogenesis and evolution.
The span of time between the first appearance of water and the earliest fossils of bacteria (which require water) is too close for random events leading to abiogenesis and evolution.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Water was on our planet already 4.3 billion years ago. Too close? According to his calculations? I don’t buy it. I know you’re desperate for a direct supernatural intervention by God for the origin of life. Well, I’m not. The natural causes that God created work just fine, thank you.
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tonyrey
Guest
The assertion that **nothing **in the universe is designed, sustained or controlled by God is heresy par excellence given that Jesus taught us that we have a loving Father who cares for all His creatures and constantly intervenes in answer to prayer…Possibly I’m confusing ID the un-science with ID the un-philosophy.
The evidence is that everything in the universe is designed, Rom 1:20, so I predict ID will find a probability of 100% everywhere it looks. ID will than fade away in the style of the Emperor’s new clothes as people finally realize it never said anything anyway.
"Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.”
- Matthew 6:25-34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:33
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tonyrey
Guest
The notion that the natural and supernatural aspects of life on earth are two water-tight compartments is a flagrant contradiction of Christ’s teaching that God is a loving Father who intervenes to such an extent that we should trust in divine Providence as well as do our utmost to fulfil our obligations to care for His creatures…
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tonyrey
Guest
They don’t need defending. Those who deny that at a specific moment in time human beings began to exist on this planet must be out of their mind!
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tonyrey
Guest
“There are more things in heaven and earth…”
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Christ interacts with “existing” creatures. Until they exist, God has no obligation.
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Borz
Guest
I already did. No, quoting is not dangerous.
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Borz
Guest
I would say: because it is evil to actively participate in an evil act. God actively participates in every act of rape. If god would simply not sustain the rapist in existence, he would simply “disintegrate”.
Of course, this is strictly my opinion. Your milage may vary.
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