Evidence for the Divine Inspiration of the Bible?

[JRKH]

I believe so. Anyone claiming that their book is from God should have clear evidences that it is from Him. If this was not the case, then their wouldn’t be any difference between a Christian saying ‘my book is from God’ and a Mormon saying ‘my book is from God’ and they both teach conflicting beliefs. Another point is that if a book is truely from God should it have any mistakes in it; even 1? I don’t believe so.

Good points.
By the same token the claims contained within a book are not wholely reliable either. Any book will naturally be “self supporting” or “self authenticating”. The acceptance of a book (or collectionn of books) as being from God must come from an outside source.
This is why Christ did not give us a “book”, which can be twisted as easily as the Pharasees have twisted “The Law” and Islamic extremists have twisted “The Koran”. Instead He gave us “The Church” as the “Pillar and foundation of Truth”.
We accept the 73 books of the Bible as being of God, not because of what they say, but because of what The Church says. We can then look, with confidence into these 73 books for other “proofs” or “evidence” or “teachings”.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

I believe so. Anyone claiming that their book is from God should have clear evidences that it is from Him. If this was not the case, then their wouldn’t be any difference between a Christian saying ‘my book is from God’ and a Mormon saying ‘my book is from God’ and they both teach conflicting beliefs. Another point is that if a book is truely from God should it have any mistakes in it; even 1? I don’t believe so.

SonofAdam:

I read through an English translation of the Koran, and found much that I liked. These words, for example:

God is near unto those who have faith, taking them out of deep darkness into the light - whereas near unto those who are bent on denying the truth are the powers of evil that take them out of the light into darkness deep: it is they who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.

(The Cow, 2:257)



There is also a passage that I now cannot find that says God is not far, but as close as your beating heart. Cannot find it now, though.

---

Regarding your answer, I wonder what you think about how one can discern what religious books are from the God and what religious books are not from Him. Maybe you will be able to help me understand this passage?

We have recounted to you the history of those nations. Their apostles came to them with veritable proofs, yet they persisted in their unbelief.

(The Heights 7:101)

Specifically, I wondering what are some veritable signs God provides in the pages of the Koran to show you and me that He is it’s author?

 

[PJM]

=SonofAdam;I believe so. Anyone claiming that their book is from God should have clear evidences that it is from Him. If this was not the case, then their wouldn’t be any difference between a Christian saying ‘my book is from God’ and a Mormon saying ‘my book is from God’ and they both teach conflicting beliefs. Another point is that if a book is truly from God should it have any mistakes in it; even 1? I Don’t believe so.

***So friends here are three indisputable evidences: Father, Son and Holy Spirit

1. The Old Testament typology [bible passages that lead to newer bible passages], prophesies fulfilled in the NT, historical events that are perfected in the NT [like manna and Eucharist, Sin Goat and the Sacrament of Confession instituted by Jesus in John 20:20-23]
2. The Incarnation [Birth of the God-man, Jesus], His life, death and resurrection all proven with historical evidence. And the establishment of a new faith, a new church that has stood the test of time.
3. The Bible itself, now nearly 2000 years old [coincidently the same age as the Catholic Church’s, and the fact that it has topped the Worlds Best Seller list for all of this period:thumbsup:**

All of these take God’s direct intervention**

 

[patg]

Maybe I do. I’ll let you be the judge. To begin, please let me ask you this: If an omniscient God wanted to guide the writing of a volume of books, and He wanted to leave evidence within the pages of those books that He was the guide, what evidence do you think He would leave for you and I to discover? Wouldn’t He provide some information that only an all-knowing God would know and that no mere human being could possibly know?

I suppose so but we would still have to be able to discern what that was. Prophesies aren’t reliable because it is very easy for anyone to write a story which fulfills almost any prophecy.

 

[SonofAdam]

Good points.
By the same token the claims contained within a book are not wholely reliable either. Any book will naturally be “self supporting” or “self authenticating”. The acceptance of a book (or collectionn of books) as being from God must come from an outside source.
This is why Christ did not give us a “book”, which can be twisted as easily as the Pharasees have twisted “The Law” and Islamic extremists have twisted “The Koran”. Instead He gave us “The Church” as the “Pillar and foundation of Truth”.
We accept the 73 books of the Bible as being of God, not because of what they say, but because of what The Church says. We can then look, with confidence into these 73 books for other “proofs” or “evidence” or “teachings”.

Peace
James

Right now we are not talking about interpretation, we need to first establish that the book is from God in the first place. Like you said, the key is objective proofs.

 

[JRKH]

Right now we are not talking about interpretation, we need to first establish that the book is from God in the first place. Like you said, the key is objective proofs.

I really do not think I made any reference to interpretation, except as it applies to the need for an outside source to “authenticate” a given book.

We - and that includes ALL Christians whether Roman-Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or “Protestant” - accept the current canon of the Bible, not because the books themselves say so. In many cases the writers don’t say whether they are “inspired” or not. Rather, we accept them because the Catholic Church, in councel, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, declared them so. This canon has survived intact for 1500 years (with the excpetion of the deuterocanonical books).
This canon has survived because the Catholic Church has defended it, copied it, protected it, taught from it, tranlated it and spread it throughout the world.

So for me - perhaps the greatest evidence for the “Divine Inspiration” of the Bible is the Church herself. The continuity of The Church and it’s teachings.

Peace
James

 

[Abu]

Yes, the ONLY evidence for the inspiration of the Bible is Christ’s Church which has declared infallibly which books are inspired and no others.

BTW, Protestants lack seven books of the O.T., which is why most fail to believe in Purgatory and prayer for the departed, because they lack the authority of Christ through His Catholic Church.

 

[spockrates]

I believe so. Anyone claiming that their book is from God should have clear evidences that it is from Him. If this was not the case, then their wouldn’t be any difference between a Christian saying ‘my book is from God’ and a Mormon saying ‘my book is from God’ and they both teach conflicting beliefs. Another point is that if a book is truely from God should it have any mistakes in it; even 1? I don’t believe so.

Mistakes in the original autographs? No, not if God had control over what the author wrote. For example, I’m sure you likely believe the Koran has no mistakes, because the God made sure that Mohammad relayed His words correctly. Many Catholics and other Christians believe the same about the Bible. The question to ask is how good are the copies. Don’t you think?

 

[SonofAdam]

SonofAdam:

I read through an English translation of the Koran, and found much that I liked. These words, for example:

God is near unto those who have faith, taking them out of deep darkness into the light - whereas near unto those who are bent on denying the truth are the powers of evil that take them out of the light into darkness deep: it is they who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.

(The Cow, 2:257)



There is also a passage that I now cannot find that says God is not far, but as close as your beating heart. Cannot find it now, though.

---

Regarding your answer, I wonder what you think about how one can discern what religious books are from the God and what religious books are not from Him. Maybe you will be able to help me understand this passage?

We have recounted to you the history of those nations. Their apostles came to them with veritable proofs, yet they persisted in their unbelief.

(The Heights 7:101)

Specifically, I wondering what are some veritable signs God provides in the pages of the Koran to show you and me that He is it’s author?

You are probably making reference to the verse: 50:16 ***It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. ***

Surah 7-101 w/different translation:

1. Those were the towns whose story We relate unto you. And there came indeed to them their Messengers with clear proofs, but they were not such who would believe in what they rejected before. Thus Allah does seal up the hearts of the disbelievers.

(101. Those were the towns whose story We relate unto you. And there came indeed to them their Messengers with clear proofs, but they were not such who would believe in what they rejected before. Thus Allah does seal up the hearts of the disbelievers.) (102. And most of them We found not true to their covenant, but most of them We found indeed rebellious.) After narrating the stories of the people of Prophets Nuh, Hud, Salih, Lut and Shu`ayb, destroying the disbelievers, saving the believers, warning these nations by explaining the truth to them with the evidence sent in the words of His Messengers, may Allah’s peace and blessings be on them all, Allah said;

تِلْكَ الْقُرَى نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ]

(Those were the towns that We relate to you) O Muhammad,

مِنْ أَنبَآئِهَا]

(their story), and news,

وَلَقَدْ جَآءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُهُم بِالْبَيِّنَـتِ]

(And there came indeed to them their Messengers with clear proofs,) and evidences of the truth of what they brought them. Allah said in other Ayah,

وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّى نَبْعَثَ رَسُولاً]

(And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).) [17:15], and,

ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنْبَآءِ الْقُرَى نَقُصُّهُ عَلَيْكَ مِنْهَا قَآئِمٌ وَحَصِيدٌ وَمَا ظَلَمْنَـهُمْ وَلَـكِن ظَلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ]

(That is some of the news of the towns which We relate unto you; of them, some are standing, and some have been reaped. We wronged them not, but they wronged themselves.) [11:100-101] Allah said

فَمَا كَانُواْ لِيُؤْمِنُواْ بِمَا كَذَّبُواْ مِن قَبْلُ]

(but they were not such who would believe in what they had rejected before.) meaning they would not have later on believed in what the Messengers brought them, because they denied the truth when it first came to them (although they recognized it), according to the Tafsir of Ibn `Atiyyah. This explanation is sound, and is supported by Allah’s statement,

وَمَا يُشْعِرُكُمْ أَنَّهَآ إِذَا جَآءَتْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَوَنُقَلِّبُ أَفْئِدَتَهُمْ وَأَبْصَـرَهُمْ كَمَا لَمْ يُؤْمِنُواْ بِهِ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ]

(And what will make you perceive that if it came, they will not believe And We shall turn their hearts and their eyes away (from guidance), as they refused to believe therein for the first time.) [6:109-110]…" (for more about verse 102 etc. see Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

 

[SonofAdam]

Specifically, I wondering what are some veritable signs God provides in the pages of the Koran to show you and me that He is it’s author?

1. ***We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur’ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? ***

Scientific Facts Revealed in the Qur’an. Geologist Professor Z. Al Najjar speaking to an audience at Lecture Theatre l. University of Wales. Cardiff. Tuesday, February 2,1999

youtube.com/watch?v=prNdIGq8gAU

Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”

Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”

There is more but I kept it brief because this is not the topic.

 

[PJM]

=patg;6337616]I suppose so but we would still have to be able to discern what that was. Prophesies aren’t reliable because it is very easy for anyone to write a story which fulfills almost any prophecy.

***Ah?

But the degree of fulfillment and accuracy is 100%. What does that do to your “just luck” theory?

Love and prayers friend,***

 

[SonofAdam]

***Ah?

But the degree of fulfillment and accuracy is 100%. What does that do to your “just luck” theory?

Love and prayers friend,***

You all have probably already dealt with this in the past but I want to ask about it too.

Jer 36:30 Therefore thus saith the Lord against Joakim the king of Juda: He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat by day, and to the frost by night.

4 Kings 24:6 6 And Joachin his son reigned in his stead.

Joachin is the son of Joakim and Joachin reigned after his father passed away. Jer 36:30 says that he wouldn’t have a successor after his death so how was his son able to reign after him. Seems he shouldn’t have reigned even for a day? Is this an unfulfilled prophecy or have I misunderstood?

 

[peary]

One point is that the bible is made up of over 40 different authors, over thousands of years, and ALL being in agreement about the work/vision/will of GOD… this is quiet incredible since in other religions they might have “one” person as their author…

It is said the Old testament prophets where moved by either the WORD of GOD or the HOLY SPIRIT, again this is in agreement of where we are now, both in Word and Spirit…

Also what God foretold (in some cases upto thousands of years before) actually came to pass, we know this is real because it was recorded in oral traditon and writings of Jews and Gentiles and it being the history of the world and empires… e.g look at the propehcy of the book of Daniel and the kingdoms - this actually happened… consecutive kingdoms being Assyria/Medes and persians then Greek, the bible spells this out well before time.

Another argument is “faith”… do you believe what took place in the NT, actually happened? This is argument enough, since Christ is DIVINE. But if you dont believe him then believe on the base of the Miracles themselves is another point…

I hope this makes a start in answering your question…

Well, that is not exactly ‘true’. Protestantism is divided into many denominations because they all have a different interpretation of the work/vision/Will of God. Writers of the biblical books, concerning prophecy, sometimes look at past events, interpret them in a prophetic manner, and then write them in a future tense. You are correct in your statement that every protestant denomination and the Church look at the the Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Also, Faith plays an important part in acceptance of the Bible.

 

[spockrates]

You are probably making reference to the verse: 50:16 ***It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. ***

Surah 7-101 w/different translation:

Perhaps that is it, or maybe it is a verse like it. Thank you for looking.

Regarding Surah, I was actually asking what the veritable proofs are.

 

[spockrates]

1. ***We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur’ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? ***

Scientific Facts Revealed in the Qur’an. Geologist Professor Z. Al Najjar speaking to an audience at Lecture Theatre l. University of Wales. Cardiff. Tuesday, February 2,1999

youtube.com/watch?v=prNdIGq8gAU

Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”

Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”

There is more but I kept it brief because this is not the topic.

Yes, that does sound remarkable. Yet Mormons make the same claims of their founder Joseph Smith. He was an illiterate young man who could not have possibly written the book of Mormon. Hence, the words of the book are not his own. Some over zealous critics of Joseph Smith suggest (perhaps unfairly) that it was a more intelligent demon, or even the Devil himself, who gave the words to him. I would not make such a claim, however, without having more evidence.

Then there are Jewish people who say the proof that the God spoke to their prophets is irrefutable. I suppose Moses and Isaiah and others are considered your prophets, too. Have you heard what proof they have?

 

[spockrates]

I suppose so but we would still have to be able to discern what that was. Prophesies aren’t reliable because it is very easy for anyone to write a story which fulfills almost any prophecy.

Pat:

LOL! Yes, I agree! Some people are too gullible and read the Bible looking for predictions of the latest headlines!



But what if I were to show you one prophecy of the Bible that came true and that was specific and verifiable? What if the prophecy predicted an event hundreds of years before it occurred, and such an event is one that historians and archeologists, who are not religious, have confirm happened only once in all of recorded history. Would you think this is possibly not a run of the mill vague prediction or wishful thinking?

 

[PJM]

You all have probably already dealt with this in the past but I want to ask about it too.

Jer 36:30 Therefore thus saith the Lord against Joakim the king of Juda: He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat by day, and to the frost by night.

4 Kings 24:6 6 And Joachin his son reigned in his stead.

Joachin is the son of Joakim and Joachin reigned after his father passed away. Jer 36:30 says that he wouldn’t have a successor after his death so how was his son able to reign after him. Seems he shouldn’t have reigned even for a day? Is this an unfulfilled prophecy or have I misunderstood?

I’m not a biblical historian.

The Kingdom of David seems to have ended with Davids grandson [son of Solomon.] At which point the kingdom was devided. Thus effectively ending the rein of David.

My reading of Joakim, shows him being deposed by Nebuchadrez’zar king of Babylon. Jer. 37:1 " Jer.37: 1 “Zedeki’ah the son of Josi’ah, whom Nebuchadrez’zar king of Babylon made king in the land of Judah, reigned instead of Coni’ah the son of Jehoi’akim”

But this appears to be historically after the split in the kingdom of David anyway. So I don’t understand your point.

Sorry, but I don’t see in these circumstances a prophsey to be “broken”?

Also as a FYI: Catholic Bibles only have 1st an 2nd. Kings, then go to Cronicals 1 and 2.

"However, on the succession of Solomon’s son, Rehoboam, in c. 930 BC the country split into two kingdoms: Israel (including the cities of Shechem and Samaria) in the north and Judah (containing Jerusalem) in the south. Most of the non-Israelite provinces fell away.

End of the “United Monarchy”

Main articles: Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and Kingdom of Judah
Following Solomon’s death in c. 926 BC, tensions between the northern part of Israel containing the ten northern tribes, and the southern section dominated by Jerusalem and the southern tribes reached boiling point. When Solomon’s successor Rehoboam dealt tactlessly with economic complaints of the northern tribes, in about 930 BC (there are difference of opinion as to the actual year) the united Kingdom of Israel split into two kingdoms: the northern Kingdom of Israel, which included the cities of Shechem and Samaria, and the southern Kingdom of Judah, which contained Jerusalem; with most of the non-Israelite provinces achieving independence."

The Kingdom of Israel (or Northern Kingdom) existed as an independent state until around 720 BC when it was conquered by the Assyrian Empire; while the Kingdom of Judah (or Southern Kingdom) existed as an independent state until 586 BC when it was conquered by the Babylonian Empire.

Jer. 37: 1 “Zedeki’ah the son of Josi’ah, whom Nebuchadrez’zar king of Babylon made king in the land of Judah, reigned instead of Coni’ah the son of Jehoi’akim.”

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[SonofAdam]

Yes, that does sound remarkable. Yet Mormons make the same claims of their founder Joseph Smith. He was an illiterate young man who could not have possibly written the book of Mormon. Hence, the words of the book are not his own. Some over zealous critics of Joseph Smith suggest (perhaps unfairly) that it was a more intelligent demon, or even the Devil himself, who gave the words to him. I would not make such a claim, however, without having more evidence.

Then there are Jewish people who say the proof that the God spoke to their prophets is irrefutable. I suppose Moses and Isaiah and others are considered your prophets, too. Have you heard what proof they have?

I didn’t just say Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) was illiterate and based off that alone, he was a Messenger; thats not enough for us in this time; that was probably a proof for the people who personally knew Muhammad at that time. Some miracles were only verifiable at the time it was done. Example: Jesus raising the dead. That was for the people at his time. With regards to the scientific miracles in the Qur’an, it is impossible for a human being, alive during that time, to know the information which it contains.

Any book claiming that it is the Final book has to be analyzed. If in fact the book is proven to be from God, the belief in the one who it was revealed to must also be authentic as well.

 

[SonofAdam]

Perhaps that is it, or maybe it is a verse like it. Thank you for looking.

Regarding Surah, I was actually asking what the veritable proofs are.

Your welcome.

Which Surah are you refering to and what do you mean by ‘veritable proofs’?

 

[spockrates]

I didn’t just say Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) was illiterate and based off that alone, he was a Messenger; thats not enough for us in this time; that was probably a proof for the people who personally knew Muhammad at that time. Some miracles were only verifiable at the time it was done. Example: Jesus raising the dead.

But Jesus raising Himself from the dead is a different matter entirely, I think. It’s a bit difficult for a man to fake His own resurrection, don’t you think?

That was for the people at his time. With regards to the scientific miracles in the Qur’an, it is impossible for a human being, alive during that time, to know the information which it contains.

Yes, you might be right. I suppose you’d agree that the Bible has something in common with the Koran, then. For Job is quoted as saying this:

The God spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

(Job 26:7)

And how could he have known that the earth is suspended over nothing? The prophet Isaiah wrote this:

The God sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

(Isaiah 40:22)

And he could not possibly know that the earth is a sphere and not flat.

Any book claiming that it is the Final book has to be analyzed. If in fact the book is proven to be from God, the belief in the one who it was revealed to must also be authentic as well.

How do you think the Bible compares to the Koran in as far as it stands up to scientific analysis, thus far?