Evidence of Islam's claim that Jewish and Christian Scripture is deliberately corrupted?

[Hatikvah]

Disclaimer: This thread is written and posted not as an attack on Islam, but the questioning of a doctrine in Islam. That is sanctioned under “A reminder on inter-faith dialogue”.

Islam claims that Jews and Christians deliberately corrupted their holy books that Allah revealed to them. I have some questions on this doctrine.

1) Is there any meaningful evidence that Christians and Jews deliberately corrupted Scripture?

Most modern textual critics would state that the New Testament is over 99% (or 98%) pure; also, we have over 5600 attestations in many different ancient languages like Greek, Syriac, Coptic, and Aramaic of these texts. That’s more than the ancient philosophers like Plato! Even if one textual family was quite corrupted, like that of the later Alexandrian family, there were others to preserve the textual tradition.
**
2) Why does the Qur’an state that the Gospels were revealed to Jesus, but that is not the case?**

The Qur’an says this:

Say: “People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord.” … S. 5:68 Arberry

The Gospels themselves never makes claims to direct divinity, and Christians maintain to this day that they were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit – not being revelations to Jesus. In fact, the Gospel of Luke states this, specifically claiming that it was written after being investigated (Luke 1:1-3)

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you…

Thanks for reading and replying!

 

[drac16]

Question #1 deals with textual criticism. I don’t know anything about textual criticism, so I can’t offer any reply. I will address #2, though.

Ah, but it does not say that the Gospels were revealed to Jesus, it just says the Gospel (note the singularity). We contend that those who follow the Gospel would have rejected, for example, the deity of Christ, which is why they are rebuked in a few verses down, in surah 5:73-74. Yes, it’s true that there are four Gospels, but the Qur’an never claims that they were in and of themselves Gospel Truth. Based on my own independent study, I am convinced that each of the four Gospels, to varying degrees, teach the divinity of Christ. Therefore, I do not affirm that the four Gospels are the same core message that Jesus taught.

Lastly, Qur’an is very clear to not say that they, the four Gospels are the word of God. Rather, the Qur’an challenges christians to judge by that which Allah has revealed therein; namely, the standard that’s presented in Surah 112, which is to say, that God cannot be compared to a human (verse 4 is especially clear on that). Surah 112 is the perfect summary of Tawheed. It’s got so much nectar in so few words. To make a long story short, Tawheed is what Islam says about who and what God is.

We’re against the idea that God can take on a frail human body and take on human fallibility. It’s absolute sacrilege for a muslim to say that any person is a deity.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Question #1 deals with textual criticism. I don’t know anything about textual criticism, so I can’t offer any reply. I will address #2, though.

Ah, but it does not say that the Gospels were revealed to Jesus, it just says the Gospel (note the singularity). We contend that those who follow the Gospel would have rejected, for example, the deity of Christ, which is why they are rebuked in a few verses down, in surah 5:73-74. Yes, it’s true that there are four Gospels, but the Qur’an never claims that they were in and of themselves Gospel Truth. Based on my own independent study, I am convinced that each of the four Gospels, to varying degrees, teach the divinity of Christ. Therefore, I do not affirm that the four Gospels are the same core message that Jesus taught.

Lastly, Qur’an is very clear to not say that they, the four Gospels are the word of God. Rather, the Qur’an challenges christians to judge by that which Allah has revealed therein; namely, the standard that’s presented in Surah 112, which is to say, that God cannot be compared to a human (verse 4 is especially clear on that). Surah 112 is the perfect summary of Tawheed. It’s got so much nectar in so few words. To make a long story short, Tawheed is what Islam says about who and what God is.

We’re against the idea that God can take on a frail human body and take on human fallibility. It’s absolute sacrilege for a muslim to say that any person is a deity.

Interesting that you affirm the four Gospels do affirms Christ’s divinity. Most Muslims would not. I would not disagree with you though that each Gospel does present Christ as being divine in some way.

From my judgment and the judgment of all of Christendom what the Qur’an says about Jesus is not truthful and is heresy. Since Jesus never wrote anything down, we have relied on the traditions and the words of the Apostles. These men along with the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Mary Magdalene were the closest to Jesus personally and even died for him. They were martyred for the truth. And the truth has been kept alive. The Church has not and cannot fall into error. Christ himself affirmed this.

*“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28:20

“Jesus replied, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.’” - Matthew 16:17-18*

 

[sirach2v4]

The religion of Islam developed with a perspective on Christianity that was popular at the time, Arianism - that Jesus was just a man, not God. That is a fundamental component of the Islamic view of Christianity, and, of course, in the view of Catholics, an error.

And, aside from any other opinion, the view of Islam seems to include the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross. I don’t know of any branch or cult of Christianity that denies that Jesus died on the cross. As most of us Christians recall from scripture, Jesus not only died on the cross, but was risen from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Christ’s ascension into heaven should not be an extraordinary belief in Islam, because Muslims believe that their Prophet ascended into heaven from the site of the Jerusalem temple mount. But, in their view, it was not Jesus who ascended into heaven, but Mohammed.

My recollection is, that the Qu’ran was not written by the Prophet, but by his followers, parallel to the development of the New Testament writings.

From some television program, if I have it correct, Muslims believe that Hell is not eternal punishment, but that everyone eventually comes into the Divine Presence, however as Islam defines it.

Muslims are not shy about criticizing Christian beliefs, as this thread indicates, but they are very sensitive to any criticism of their beliefs.

 

[Lea101]

The religion of Islam developed with a perspective on Christianity that was popular at the time, Arianism - that Jesus was just a man, not God. That is a fundamental component of the Islamic view of Christianity, and, of course, in the view of Catholics, an error.

And, aside from any other opinion, the view of Islam seems to include the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross. I don’t know of any branch or cult of Christianity that denies that Jesus died on the cross. As most of us Christians recall from scripture, Jesus not only died on the cross, but was risen from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Christ’s ascension into heaven should not be an extraordinary belief in Islam, because Muslims believe that their Prophet ascended into heaven from the site of the Jerusalem temple mount. But, in their view, it was not Jesus who ascended into heaven, but Mohammed.

My recollection is, that the Qu’ran was not written by the Prophet, but by his followers, parallel to the development of the New Testament writings.

From some television program, if I have it correct, Muslims believe that Hell is not eternal punishment, but that everyone eventually comes into the Divine Presence, however as Islam defines it.

Muslims are not shy about criticizing Christian beliefs, as this thread indicates, but they are very sensitive to any criticism of their beliefs.

I am pretty sure hell is eternal for them. What you are talking about must be the “grave”. If I’m not wrong, it’s not hell or heaven, but a place where they’ll be tested before being sent to heaven or hell

 

[RPRPsych]

Here’s a very useful piece of writing:

Hilaire Belloc on Islam

 

[MartinJordan]

Disclaimer: This thread is written and posted not as an attack on Islam, but the questioning of a doctrine in Islam. That is sanctioned under “A reminder on inter-faith dialogue”.

Islam claims that Jews and Christians deliberately corrupted their holy books that Allah revealed to them. I have some questions on this doctrine.

1) Is there any meaningful evidence that Christians and Jews deliberately corrupted Scripture?

The question is. Why would Christians and Jews “deliberately” corrupt Scripture"?

What is there to gain?

Seems rather childish ranting to me.

MJ

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I am pretty sure hell is eternal for them. What you are talking about must be the “grave”. If I’m not wrong, it’s not hell or heaven, but a place where they’ll be tested before being sent to heaven or hell

Hell is not necessarily eternal in Islam.

In fact, many Muslims believe they are going there for a short time until they pay for their sins, then they will get out.

The “test” for them is the here and now

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Islam is in a tough position. The Koran actually tells them to refer to the people of the book(us and Jews) if they have doubts, but if they do that they would be lead away from their religion because their book doesn’t align with ours.

So they must believe that our scripture has been changed. And not only changed, mangled beyond all recognition in order to align with Koran, which they think was the original scripture even though there is no historical evidence to support that theory.

Three words totally blow the corruption theory out of the water - DEAD SEA SCROLLS

With the NT, the criticism is we don’t have the originals and all the ancient documents we do have don’t totally match. And that’s true, but you are talking like 5,600 Ancient Greek documents that are 99% textually pure. Plus 2,000 years of Apostolic Church history to support those manuscripts. So the argument of corruption is baseless, but necessary for them to make in order to sustain.

 

[2PT3]

Answers:

1. No, there is no historical evidence for the proposition that the Old and New Testaments are bastardizations of the Quran undertaken by Jews and Christians. As a matter of history, the Muslim position is demonstrably false.
2. The idea that the Gospels were revealed to Jesus is nonsensical. The Gospels describe Jesus’ life and teaching and were written by others after Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension. On the other hand, if the Muslim the idea is that the Gospel “message” must have been revealed to Jesus because he was just a man and not divine then that’s a different issue. I don’t think “evidence” will be found outside either the New Testament or the Koran to support either the Christian or the Muslim view.

 

[TheAtheist]

The question is. Why would Christians and Jews “deliberately” corrupt Scripture"?

A short aside.

Although I’m a person who

1.) isn’t a Westerner
2.) has no familial tie to any of the Semitic religions
3.) has no familial tie to any of the my native cultures religious traditions at least 3 generations back…

(ie: I have no axe to grind with anyone, but i’m probably lacking in data when it comes to all your specific religious traditions):

But… this is a very old game that the Muslims are playing. After all, don’t some of the Orthodox make that claim regarding the Jews?

Hence the fact they cling to the Greek version of the Old Testament, claiming that the Masoretic Texts used by i’m assuming you guys and the Jews were somehow either tampered with to be less less Christological?

a more mild way of expressing that is that the Masoretes just “chose incorrectly.”

I agree it is possible that a number of the textual variants arose prior to the birth of Christ. In those cases, the MT tampering was not a case of inventing new texts. Rather, it was a case of illegitimately selecting one text over another. When certain Hebrew texts differed from the LXX, of course the Masoretes often selected texts which carried vague or nonexistent Christology. This could have been conscious tampering. Or perhaps they were just inept. Either way, the MT is not in agreement with the text which was quoted by Jesus and the apostles.

Although I do have some Jewish friends who tell me there are still Christians who believe that somehow they changed the Shema in order to undercut any Christian interpretations…

 

[drac16]

The question is. Why would Christians and Jews “deliberately” corrupt Scripture"?

What is there to gain?

Seems rather childish ranting to me.

MJ

It can be as quick as the decision to punch someone in the face. People lie all the time. It’s not hard to imagine.

 

[Ontheway]

But why and for what purpose would the Jews and the Christians want to corrupt God’s message? What did they stand to gain?

I can understand why the Muslims use the “corruption” argument.

The Koran contains multiple stories from the Bible that have been either misunderstood, not remembered well and sound a little confused, or borrowed from sources other that the Canon of the Christian church. Since these stories differ in emphasis or detail from the original, the Muslim consider the original as being corrupt, because the author of the Koran can not be wrong.

Put simply, since the Koran is the literal word of Allah, anything that differs from it is a corruption.

Following this line of reasoning, the muslims have no need to ask why or how we corrupted the Bible. It is not the Koran verbatim, hence it must be a corruption.

 

[MartinJordan]

It can be as quick as the decision to punch someone in the face. People lie all the time. It’s not hard to imagine.

I’d rather focus on Eucharistic adoration. Prayer life is so very integral. We gain nothing by calling people liars.

Peace be with you .

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

But why and for what purpose would the Jews and the Christians want to corrupt God’s message? What did they stand to gain?

I can understand why the Muslims use the “corruption” argument.

The Koran contains multiple stories from the Bible that have been either misunderstood, not remembered well and sound a little confused, or borrowed from sources other that the Canon of the Christian church. Since these stories differ in emphasis or detail from the original, the Muslim consider the original as being corrupt, because the author of the Koran can not be wrong.

Put simply, since the Koran is the literal word of Allah, anything that differs from it is a corruption.

Following this line of reasoning, the muslims have no need to ask why or how we corrupted the Bible. It is not the Koran verbatim, hence it must be a corruption.

I just find it odd why some Muslims take Bible verses of Jesus’ words and try to convince us that he meant something else. Why bother at all?

MJ

 

[hasantas]

Hell is not necessarily eternal in Islam.

In fact, many Muslims believe they are going there for a short time until they pay for their sins, then they will get out.

The “test” for them is the here and now

Hell is eternal. But sinful believers will not stay in Hell for ever. Unbelievers will go Hell eternaly.

 

[hasantas]

Qur’an affirm Torah and Bible. God say in Qur’an that the parallel verses(revelation) was revealed to previous prophets before Muhammad. God in Qur’an reminder People of Book to regard their scriptures. For instance Christians believe in Trinity which is not in Bible. Jews scholars many times do not apply laws(verses) for themselves. For self benefits Jews scholars can mis-interpret scripture.

And for the corruption. Both Torah and Gospels are interpretation by interpretations. Also there are many statements of writers in texts which are not direct revelation. I respect both Torah and Bible. But there are many especially in Torah comments of writers which may be confused with revelation. There is no original form of revelation. Qur’an is pure revelation.

As much I know Qur’an do not say Torah or Bible(İnjil) got corrupted. But Jews and Christians do not respect their scriptures which are words of God. For instance Christians interpret Gospels to support doctrines of Church. But should not they respect Bible directly? Is that not corruption?

 

[GUNNER7070]

I just find it odd why some Muslims take Bible verses of Jesus’ words and try to convince us that he meant something else. Why bother at all?

MJ

I believe that it is because there is a difference in terminology, Christians and Muslims perceive things differently.

But come to think of it, isn’t the difference in interpretation?

 

[MartinJordan]

I believe that it is because there is a difference in terminology, Christians and Muslims perceive things differently.

But come to think of it, isn’t the difference in interpretation?

My point to be clear and frank is that Muslims that use the Bible is odd in itself . Muslims do not even have an official so called Bible do they? So why bother with it at all in the first place?

Interpretation has no case here.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[TheAtheist]

My point to be clear and frank is that Muslims that use the Bible is odd in itself . Muslims do not even have an official so called Bible do they? So why bother with it at all in the first place?

Interpretation has no case here.

Peace be with you.

MJ

Interpretation is quite important in this case.

I take it Mr. Jordan you aren’t acquainted with any Muslims in real life?

Part of their religious faith is a positioning of Islam as a Final Revelation that encompasses the two other Semitic religions…and then some.

I present to you as an example of this line of thought in rather “stripped down” preacher format Dr. Zakir Naik.

youtube.com/watch?v=PRw25KZG0vE

The video above is regular fare for Dr. Naik - he tends to quote other peoples scriptures (even Hindu Upanishads and Vedas) to show the validity of Islam as the final revelation.

I’m sure you, the Jews, and the Hindus would say he’s either taking things out of context or completely missing the purposes of the passages he quotes.

But from the Islamic perspective, that’s where the Corruption comes in…

Because if you had the correct understanding, you would see it their way…

Have fun with taht.