Evidence of Islam's claim that Jewish and Christian Scripture is deliberately corrupted?

[MartinJordan]

Interpretation is quite important in this case.

I take it Mr. Jordan you aren’t acquainted with any Muslims in real life?

Part of their religious faith is a positioning of Islam as a Final Revelation that encompasses the two other Semitic religions…and then some.

I present to you as an example of this line of thought in rather “stripped down” preacher format Dr. Zakir Naik.

youtube.com/watch?v=PRw25KZG0vE

The video above is regular fare for Dr. Naik - he tends to quote other peoples scriptures (even Hindu Upanishads and Vedas) to show the validity of Islam as the final revelation.

I’m sure you, the Jews, and the Hindus would say he’s either taking things out of context or completely missing the purposes of the passages he quotes.

But from the Islamic perspective, that’s where the Corruption comes in…

Because if you had the correct understanding, you would see it their way…

Have fun with taht.

I’ve lived with Muslims ALL my life. For the record I am a Tamil in case you were wondering.

Now, Zakir Naik is a banned preacher in my country, so I’m not going there.

MJ

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hell is eternal. But sinful believers will not stay in Hell for ever. Unbelievers will go Hell eternaly.

When i say it’s not necessarily eternal, that’s what im talking about

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Qur’an affirm Torah and Bible. God say in Qur’an that the parallel verses(revelation) was revealed to previous prophets before Muhammad. God in Qur’an reminder People of Book to regard their scriptures. For instance Christians believe in Trinity which is not in Bible. Jews scholars many times do not apply laws(verses) for themselves. For self benefits Jews scholars can mis-interpret scripture.

Greetings.

Trinitarian concept is clearly there. Most Christians read the Gospels and come to that conclusion. It’s a logical conclusion based on a mountain of scriptural evidence. We also have 2,000 years of Church history pointing to said belief.

Koran affirms certain things like the oneness of God and virgin birth, etc. But contradicts the Bible in other places.

And for the corruption. Both Torah and Gospels are interpretation by interpretations. Also there are many statements of writers in texts which are not direct revelation. I respect both Torah and Bible. But there are many especially in Torah comments of writers which may be confused with revelation. There is no original form of revelation. Qur’an is pure revelation.

From the Christian standpoint, it is direct revelation is at comes from the Holy Spirit. And Gospels comes from Jesus(aka God) to the Apostles.

As much I know Qur’an do not say Torah or Bible(İnjil) got corrupted. But Jews and Christians do not respect their scriptures which are words of God. For instance Christians interpret Gospels to support doctrines of Church. But should not they respect Bible directly? Is that not corruption?

Not sure what you mean. The Church, humanely speaking, birthed the New Testament. So she is the only authoritative interpreter.

Pax

 

[TheAtheist]

I’ve lived with Muslims ALL my life. For the record I am a Tamil in case you were wondering.

Now, Zakir Naik is a banned preacher in my country, so I’m not going there.

MJ

Oh! So its you and the SyroMalankaran I occasionally see… Thomas Christians I assume? Orthodox or Catholic (sorry the distinction is completely lost on me at times)?

Well, nice to see i’m not the only one here - although i’m originally from the other end up north in UP till I moved to the US.

And as for Dr. Naik… yeah i had forgotten his banned…

But he’s a perfect example of “LISTEN TO ME PEOPLE OF OTHER RELIGIONS - ISLAM was FORETOLD BY” blah blah blah blah blah.

 

[MartinJordan]

Oh! So its you and the SyroMalankaran I occasionally see… Thomas Christians I assume? Orthodox or Catholic (sorry the distinction is completely lost on me at times)?

Just a Catholic (in communion with Rome ). Praying always for unity in the name of Jesus .

Well, nice to see i’m not the only one here - although i’m originally from the other end up north in UP till I moved to the US.

Pleasure mine. Always happy to meet a fellow Indian.

And as for Dr. Naik… yeah i had forgotten his banned…

Banned from preaching to be exact. And this ban is supported by Muslim affairs department here (headed by Muslims).

But he’s a perfect example of “LISTEN TO ME PEOPLE OF OTHER RELIGIONS - ISLAM was FORETOLD BY” blah blah blah blah blah.

Perfect. We’re on the same page.

Cheers and peace be with you.

MJ

 

[ChurchSoldier]

2Tim3:14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.

 

[MartinJordan]

2Tim3:14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.

Yes.

That is what I also feel is odd. Why would Christians corrupt scripture when it is a call for righteousness and good works. Quite disappointing these kind of claims.

MJ

 

[ThundersnowIV]

I am pretty sure hell is eternal for them. What you are talking about must be the “grave”. If I’m not wrong, it’s not hell or heaven, but a place where they’ll be tested before being sent to heaven or hell

Hell is temporary for certain Muslims.

 

[JimmyDFG]

I believe that it is because there is a difference in terminology, Christians and Muslims perceive things differently.

But come to think of it, isn’t the difference in interpretation?

Different terminology?
John8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

Where in the Bible does it mention the above verse?
Islam believes Jesus is only a prophet…so can a prophet say such a thing? If so, what other prophets said this.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Qur’an affirm Torah and Bible. God say in Qur’an that the parallel verses(revelation) was revealed to previous prophets before Muhammad. God in Qur’an reminder People of Book to regard their scriptures. For instance Christians believe in Trinity which is not in Bible. Jews scholars many times do not apply laws(verses) for themselves. doctrines of Church. But should not they respect Bible directly? Is that not corruption?

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

The concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture

 

[MartinJordan]

Different terminology?
John8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

Where in the Bible does it mention the above verse?
Islam believes Jesus is only a prophet…so can a prophet say such a thing? If so, what other prophets said this.

Excellent Jimmy.

However I think that Gunner may not be much acquainted with the Bible. If he comes back, I would like to ask him if that is that case and if so whether he’s alright with a recommendation.

Cheers!

MJ

 

[hasantas]

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

The concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture

Baptism is not a requirement for faith but for religion. Religion arrange the worships. And Jesus did not imply that Son and holy Spirit are also gods. If Bible would claim(inform) such thing there should be more certain verses, should not? Otherwise many comments can be interpreted from that verse.

 

[Hatikvah]

And Jesus did not imply that Son and holy Spirit are also gods.

We may, and the Saints who have gone before us certainly have, interpret this verse to mean that there is one God Who is Triune. It is in the name(singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, not in the names (plural) of. It is a minor detail, yes, but it is easily interpreted through Trinitarian doctrine.

If Bible would claim(inform) such thing there should be more certain verses, should not? Otherwise many comments can be interpreted from that verse.

John 14:16-17 (DRA), just as an example, involves all of the Persons of the Trinity. Statements concerning the Son will be in red, statements concerning the Father in blue, and statements concerning the Holy Spirit in green.

16 And I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with you for ever.

17 The Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, nor knoweth Him: but you shall know Him; because He shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

 

[hasantas]

=Hatikvah;13982790]

John 14:16-17 (DRA), just as an example, involves all of the Persons of the Trinity. Statements concerning the Son will be in red, statements concerning the Father in blue, and statements concerning the Holy Spirit in green.

16 And I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with you for ever.

17 The Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, nor knoweth Him: but you shall know Him; because He shall abide with you, and shall be in you. John 14

Jesus will ask the Father and He shall give … “He” is Father who is the unique God. If Jesus were God so Jesus would say “I will send”. And if Holy Spirit were God but God is not something to be sent.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Baptism is not a requirement for faith but for religion. Religion arrange the worships. And Jesus did not imply that Son and holy Spirit are also gods. If Bible would claim(inform) such thing there should be more certain verses, should not? Otherwise many comments can be interpreted from that verse.

Matthew 3:11-17
11 I ( John the Baptist ) am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
12His winnowing fan is in his hand. He will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
14 John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?”
15Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him.
16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened [for him], and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove [and] coming upon him.
17 And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son,* with whom I am well pleased.”

Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Your proof is there hasantas in the Holy Bible. As you mentioned in your other tread Fast of Ramadan and it’s meaning in message #61 “Jesus had taken all authority from Father(God) and it is very clear in Bible”.

 

[MartinJordan]

Baptism is not a requirement for faith but for religion. Religion arrange the worships. And Jesus did not imply that Son and holy Spirit are also gods. If Bible would claim(inform) such thing there should be more certain verses, should not? Otherwise many comments can be interpreted from that verse.

Jesus never said Gods. Just one. Where are you getting your information? Zakir Naik?

MJ

 

[hasantas]

Jesus never said Gods. Just one. Where are you getting your information? Zakir Naik?

MJ

Jesus never said gods but someone else think as if He implied three persons as gods!

 

[hasantas]

Matthew 3:11-17
11 I ( John the Baptist ) am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
12His winnowing fan is in his hand. He will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
14 John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?”
15Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him.
16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened [for him], and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove [and] coming upon him.
17 And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son,* with whom I am well pleased.”

Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Your proof is there hasantas in the Holy Bible. As you mentioned in your other tread Fast of Ramadan and it’s meaning in message #61 “Jesus had taken all authority from Father(God) and it is very clear in Bible”.

And if Jesus had taken authority from Father so Father is the unique God without any partner. That is so clear. And if Jesus Himself had been baptized so how could He be God?

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus never said gods but someone else think as if He implied three persons as gods!

No one thinks three persons as Gods. There is only One. The Holy One. I can say with confidence Holy Holy Holy Lord.

Now be clear…regarding three persons as Gods. Where are you getting such ideas? I want to help you.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

And if Jesus had taken authority from Father so Father is the unique God without any partner. That is so clear. And if Jesus Himself had been baptized so how could He be God?

Good question.

Matthew 3: 13-17 -Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased".

The Baptism of Jesus by water is the most amazing part of the ritual .

This is the moment God shows mankind that Jesus is the Incarnate Word. The Word made Flesh. The Word created the waters so it shows God’s Almighty power in revealing his Son to the World.

MJ